Lucid_Flame91 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The Flames are not going to 'tank' on purpose, no matter how much you hope they might... The fact you think we "want" the flames to tank. And not the fact its common sense they were going to be this low. I WANT the flames to have a cup this year, but sadly I don't have those kinds of powers to make it happen. I don't "clam" to be a fan, I AM a fan. I can hope for a few more loses, if its going to help us achieve a better pick, and in no way does that opinion effect the flames performance what so ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The fact you think we "want" the flames to tank. And not the fact its common sense they were going to be this low. I WANT the flames to have a cup this year, but sadly I don't have those kinds of powers to make it happen. HTF does this make any sense whatsoever?... I don't "clam" to be a fan, I AM a fan. I can hope for a few more loses, if its going to help us achieve a better pick, and in no way does that opinion effect the flames performance what so ever. Once again...All that I get from this is that you hope the Flames lose in order to get a better position at the draft... But you are right, as far as your opinion does not mean jack squat in regards to the Flames efforts to continue to try and win every game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid_Flame91 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Once again...All that I get from this is that you hope the Flames lose in order to get a better position at the draft... But you are right, as far as your opinion does not mean jack squat in regards to the Flames efforts to continue to try and win every game... If they're out of the play-off picture yes I would love a better draft pick. Certainly not going to lose sleep over tonights lose, except the fact i'm kinda sad for Ortio the flames didnt show up for him would of enjoyed a win for him and Markus. And no ones opinion in here matters, its a forum board filled with entitled fans that think they deserve the GM title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 If they're out of the play-off picture yes I would love a better draft pick. Certainly not going to lose sleep over tonights lose Did you mean that you were hoping for tonight's loss (not tonights lose? [sic]) , except the fact i'm kinda sad for Ortio the flames didnt show up for him would of enjoyed a win for him and Markus. Ortio and Granlund are just getting started... And no ones opinion in here matters, its a forum board filled with entitled fans that think they deserve the GM title. I have never considered myself to be an entitled fan that thought they deserved to be an NHL GM.... Have you?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 We don't. It's a trade of integrity for a loophole in the draft system. It's a loophole i think the NHL should close so fans wouldn't support things like "Fail for Nail". The NFL had "Suck for Luck". These cheers make a mockery to their sport's draft system because fans should not have to cheer for their team to lose in order to gain something. I won't trade my integrity for a quick fix. In real life that's like embezling because you want extra cash but are to lazy to earn it. Or selling your body for a hit off the crack pipe. ****************************************** I agree the league shouldn't reward losing. If not for the loser point the non-contenders would mostly be identified by the trade deadline so I'd use that as the cut point. The team with the best record after elimination gets the 1/1 as it would force teams to compete rather them try to lose. The above cuts 2 bad things. Rewarding the losing team with a point (or the winner with an extra point) making some games 3 pointers while others are only worth 2. It also removes the carrot that entices some to exchange/prositute their integrity for a quick fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 When I first started this thread 10 days ago, I did not expect it to last too long and certainly not 7 pages worth. I realize there is little room for people to change their opinion on this subject. Thanks to everyone for arguing the merits and not going after the person who may feel different than you about this subject. I was real worried about this. When the poll reached its first phase it was a 2-1 ratio. It has leveled off and maintained just over a 3-1 ratio lately. I also thought there was going to be a few "yes" votes and i though at least one "don't care" vote. I see that some who have replied did not care to vote. Let the debate continue........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfire11 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am one that really wants to see Calgary improve and WIN. But that doesn't mean I cant cheer like heck for Buffalo, Florida, NYIsls, and Edm. to win also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I see it as being closer to almost an 4:1 ratio so far... There are zero 'yes it is ok to tank votes'. and just a handful of (5) 'hey it's ok for me to cheer for my team to lose, because I have an 'excuse for cheering for my team to lose' votes... Compared to 19 saying no, it is not ok... Either way... As I said already. it is a moot point because the Flames as an organization are not about to tank on purpose... They will bring up some talent from the Heat in order to make a assessment, but that will be as far as it goes... The Flames will play to win, every game, until the end of the season...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Is there anyone here on the boards who would be willing to walk into the Flames locker room right before a game and propose that they lose on purpose to gain a better draft pick? No?.... didn't think so... End of story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikey7883 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 If it got me into the dressing room and a chance to meet all the guys, maybe, hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymo Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The players, of course, are biased in this. Of course they give everything for the team and that is evident in every game. But they also have their career to think about and their performances individually are how they are judged. Pride also ensures they will not be shooting for the basement. But that's OK, I don't think any of them have voted thus far. Alright, hands up, who was pleased we lost last night? Who was not as gutted as they should be? Who was OK with the loss but hoped Squid had scored to boost his value and hoped Monahan scored to give us hope that he is our saviour? I think the vote looks pretty clear but it is difficult to account for shades of grey. I really want us to win. But losing, though reassuringly bitter, gives me a guilty twang of what I think is hope. I am corrupted! But the dark side will not have me yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Really Edmonton has been allowed in the store first how many times and keep buying eggs instead of other ingredients to make a proper product. I have said many times the draft is one small issue with everything. If a club cant put people in place to make your club better. This is a fixable problem, funny other teams that had similar issues fixed it. Fair enough. I meant to say the draft was the only parity tool a GM can use to improve his roster but to suggest the GM himself can get thwarted is and has always been an option as well. Back in the day, like the 80s, players played an entire career with one team and you don't see the roster changes we see today. You weren't able to get star players from other teams to join your team unless you drafted them yourself. In order to draft the best players, you need to finish close to the bottom of the league. The draft was very much developed for those days. Times have changed and star players are now on the open market and more attainable than ever before. The draft is evolving as well to suit with the introduction of the lottery and such. I still don't think they've done enough though. The idea that the best young players in the draft goes to the team that finishes closest to the bottom of the league should be done with. This is because there are more options to improve a team in addition to all the options previously available like you mentioned. By saying this, how else can the Flames and Oilers acquire star players if they don't draft them themselves? The Flames can't even throw money at a Brad Richards and convince him to come. Wouldn't the draft be one key way to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheriforPM Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am one that really wants to see Calgary improve and WIN. But that doesn't mean I cant cheer like heck for Buffalo, Florida, NYIsls, and Edm. to win also. This! Exactly! I cheer for my team to win, but when the Sabres won 2 in a row, I was happy. If the Oil could ever pull their heads out of their apples and win some, I will actually be happy! As long as it's not against us of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Despite their multiple seasons of high picks, the Oil has a problem trying to attract UFA players that they badly need... Because they have over time earned a reputation as an organization that is destined to lose... The Flame do not desire to be that kind of team, as it is not in their best interest... Either short term, or long term.... It is a bad idea... The last superstar to play in Edmonton was probably Chris Pronger and he requested a trade out of Edmonton after only one season. The Oilers weren't even that bad of a team back then either. So it's not so much a reputation as much as it's just Edmonton the city, the weather, the women, the etc. Plain and simple, if the Edmonton Oilers weren't drafting their own superstars, they would have none. Everyone says how bad the Oilers have been while drafting 1st overall, can you imagine if they didn't even have Hall, Yakupov, and RNH? How can a team who cannot attract any superstar UFAs acquire superstar players if they don't draft them themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 When I first started this thread 10 days ago, I did not expect it to last too long and certainly not 7 pages worth. I realize there is little room for people to change their opinion on this subject. Thanks to everyone for arguing the merits and not going after the person who may feel different than you about this subject. I was real worried about this. When the poll reached its first phase it was a 2-1 ratio. It has leveled off and maintained just over a 3-1 ratio lately. I also thought there was going to be a few "yes" votes and i though at least one "don't care" vote. I see that some who have replied did not care to vote. Let the debate continue........ I see it as being closer to almost an 4:1 ratio so far... There are zero 'yes it is ok to tank votes'. and just a handful of (5) 'hey it's ok for me to cheer for my team to lose, because I have an 'excuse for cheering for my team to lose' votes... Compared to 19 saying no, it is not ok... Either way... As I said already. it is a moot point because the Flames as an organization are not about to tank on purpose... They will bring up some talent from the Heat in order to make a assessment, but that will be as far as it goes... The Flames will play to win, every game, until the end of the season...... I don't think the poll question was worded right. I don't think it's "okay" per se to lose for a higher draft pick. I think it's the unforunate side effect of the NHL's draft system and they should do away with giving the best prospect to the team lowest in the standings every season. "Should" we lose for a higher draft pick? Yes, I think we should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Once again...All that I get from this is that you hope the Flames lose in order to get a better position at the draft... If they're out of the play-off picture yes I would love a better draft pick. Certainly not going to lose sleep over tonights lose. I won't trade my integrity for a quick fix. In real life that's like embezling because you want extra cash but are to lazy to earn it. Or selling your body for a hit off the crack pipe.. Fans willing to sell their integrity to cheer for a higher draft pick is considered a fan as much as those who have self-imposed rules and lines that they won't cross for the team. Some fans are willing to sacrifice everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Fans willing to sell their integrity to cheer for a higher draft pick is considered a fan as much as those who have self-imposed rules and lines that they won't cross for the team. Some fans are willing to sacrifice everything. We never said those that argue for sucking for a high pick aren't fans. We questioned the ethics & morality of wanting your team to do that. Also wanting the high picks to grow in a system where losing is viewed as OK if it "might" get them better linemates some undetermined day in the future. Ask them to shoot for playing in the IIHF WC rather then playing for the SC. The best players from eliminated teams are pretty good but most fans aren't watching because there are playoffs for Lord Stanley's Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4xon Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Not NHL related, but it shows that professional sports seems to have room for tanking. It's usually hush hush, and fan speculation, but this shows there are intentions behind the curtains. http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=444923 I could only imagine what goes on behind closed doors up in Edmonton, and down in Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Ultimately. ..the conversation is outdated. We speak as if the Flames had a choice...they do not. After 2004, they spent roughly 7 years with a "win now" philosophy. ..openly sacrificing our future for present needs, and developing prospects with a pathetic lack of interest. The truth is that we were never that good to begin with...not even in 2004. We were a well coached team with a hot goalie. This has nothing to do with making a decision to fail. We are depleted. There is not decision to be made. The inverse of this arguement is whether a team should "win now" at all costs...or manage the organization in a sustainable manner. If you are in the "win now" camp...and most on here were...you are in the "tank for draft picks" camp. Like it or not. The two are one and the same...they only appear different by the delay of time that is so inevitable yet so easy to turn a blind eye to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Ultimately. ..the conversation is outdated. We speak as if the Flames had a choice...they do not. After 2004, they spent roughly 7 years with a "win now" philosophy. ..openly sacrificing our future for present needs, and developing prospects with a pathetic lack of interest. The truth is that we were never that good to begin with...not even in 2004. We were a well coached team with a hot goalie. This has nothing to do with making a decision to fail. We are depleted. There is not decision to be made. The inverse of this arguement is whether a team should "win now" at all costs...or manage the organization in a sustainable manner. If you are in the "win now" camp...and most on here were...you are in the "tank for draft picks" camp. Like it or not. The two are one and the same...they only appear different by the delay of time that is so inevitable yet so easy to turn a blind eye to. I disagree. About four or five years ago I suggested getting a few players for Iginla but everyone seemed to disagree then. I feel like somehow the rebuild could have been averted but we were so content on having Iginla and that chance of winning. I thought we could have gotten a few pieces for him that could have added more to the team. If it was done right that is… I got a lot of flack back then for the idea. I saw the team played better without him in the line up and my ideas weren't taken lightly. I understood we weren't as good as we thought and eventually I realized we were going about business feeding Iginla the puck. It's good but very easy to defend against. Now I believe it is a tear it down because those precautions weren't taken… Anyway. The only reason I want a full blown, first overall pick is because it's easier than picking 6th and gambling. It's a lot less of a gamble picking in the top 3. Even if we've picked a few diamonds the last few years, the draft history is still pretty tainted for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Fact is Pronger didn't request a trade his wife did cause he was screwing Ty Coklins wife. Once word got out in a city that small, Prongers wife and kids had no place to hide. Carty is also right in that the culture of the Oil is horrific. The fact that no one inside the organization has made the proper changes to put a competitive team in place for 8 years now. Funny how 90% of us here can see the problems but the talking heads in management can't, must be the glow from all those rings i guess. When a club is near the cap and isn't competitive you have issues internally. Players of any quality will not go to a club that isn't in a place of contention. You can blame the city but fact is EDM's GM's, or president of operations are to blame for the fall of the Oiler's. I think I remember Pat Quinn making a comment as to " the keep telling me we have great players here, I have yet to see it". Your only as good as the player's they give you. The last superstar to play in Edmonton was probably Chris Pronger and he requested a trade out of Edmonton after only one season. The Oilers weren't even that bad of a team back then either. So it's not so much a reputation as much as it's just Edmonton the city, the weather, the women, the etc. Plain and simple, if the Edmonton Oilers weren't drafting their own superstars, they would have none. Everyone says how bad the Oilers have been while drafting 1st overall, can you imagine if they didn't even have Hall, Yakupov, and RNH? How can a team who cannot attract any superstar UFAs acquire superstar players if they don't draft them themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I disagree. About four or five years ago I suggested getting a few players for Iginla but everyone seemed to disagree then. I feel like somehow the rebuild could have been averted but we were so content on having Iginla and that chance of winning. I thought we could have gotten a few pieces for him that could have added more to the team. If it was done right that is… I got a lot of flack back then for the idea. I saw the team played better without him in the line up and my ideas weren't taken lightly. ....trying to wrap my head around how, exactly, you think you're disagreeing with me. If there's one thing I've learned on these forums it's that everyone loves to disagree. Usually for the sake of disagreeing. Even though it's clear that 99% of the time we're saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 We never said those that argue for sucking for a high pick aren't fans. We questioned the ethics & morality of wanting your team to do that. Also wanting the high picks to grow in a system where losing is viewed as OK if it "might" get them better linemates some undetermined day in the future. Ask them to shoot for playing in the IIHF WC rather then playing for the SC. The best players from eliminated teams are pretty good but most fans aren't watching because there are playoffs for Lord Stanley's Cup. I think both types of fans are equal fans. You are basically saying those cheering for losses are "lesser" fans. Not NHL related, but it shows that professional sports seems to have room for tanking. It's usually hush hush, and fan speculation, but this shows there are intentions behind the curtains. http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=444923 I could only imagine what goes on behind closed doors up in Edmonton, and down in Florida. I commend his efforts. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Colangelo was merely trying to play the game. He had no choice but to tank in order to draft impact players. It's the doing of the draft system. If there was no reward for being dead last, then there would be no attempts to be dead last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 JJ, I think you're right on this one, we seem to agree. I read it off and it was 2am where I am at so my head wasn't in the game... Haha... I am in the "lose for pick camp" but cheer for them to win. I think the best we pick this year is 5th overall. I just want the near sure-fire NHLer. In a deep draft we lucked out on Monahan. He still needs a lot of work. He is relying on his smarts in the offensive zone but needs to work on skating and some positional play. Hope he still projects at a top end 2ndline C. Cammalleri is going to remain a Flame because we're not going to get value for him. He just isn't playing that great. Maybe all you get is a2nd??? I guess that is better than nothing. Prideis going to keep us ahead of all of the other teams. With the islanders losing Tavares, it will be hard for the Flames to not pass them in the standings especially with 3 games in hand. I know we will go on some losing skids but I think the flames compete too hard. I wonder if the Flames even make a major deal this deadline. ....trying to wrap my head around how, exactly, you think you're disagreeing with me. If there's one thing I've learned on these forums it's that everyone loves to disagree. Usually for the sake of disagreeing. Even though it's clear that 99% of the time we're saying the same thing. I am too... Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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