Goaltending

[The_People1]

Ortio has, on the basis of an admittedly tiny sample, the most promise of the three of them over last year and this pre-season. 

 

Those numbers may (likely?) not be representative of how he will play long term, but are an encouraging sign. 

 

However, he also has the least experience, and probably can't be thrust into a number 1 role at the start of this season. He may well take that position by the end of the season (like Gaudreau took #1 LW last season), but only time will tell. 

 

To me, that means dealing Hiller or Ramo. I don't like keeping three goalies, even if it isn't clear who the real #1 is. Hiller probably has the higher return, and it would look a little bad to trade Ramo after re-signing him over the summer, but there isn't really space to demote him. But by contrast, Hiller is also the most reliable of the three historically. 

 

Totals.

 

Keeping Ortio is a no brainer.

 

I think the only reason Hiller and Ramo are still here is because no teams want to trade for them.

[cross16]

Totals.

 

Keeping Ortio is a no brainer.

 

I think the only reason Hiller and Ramo are still here is because no teams want to trade for them.

 

Exactly. I don't think the trade route is an option for either HIller or Ramo becuase your right if a team wanted HIller they would have dealt for him int he offseason or in Ramos case signed him as a UFA. I think the only way the Flames trade one of them within the next month or so is an injury to another teams starter and they need the depth. Otherwise, I think you are going to have to hold on to them and see what teams become dissapointed in their goalie situation and want to address it, ala the Wild last year with Dubnyk.

[The_People1]

Exactly. I don't think the trade route is an option for either HIller or Ramo becuase your right if a team wanted HIller they would have dealt for him int he offseason or in Ramos case signed him as a UFA. I think the only way the Flames trade one of them within the next month or so is an injury to another teams starter and they need the depth. Otherwise, I think you are going to have to hold on to them and see what teams become dissapointed in their goalie situation and want to address it, ala the Wild last year with Dubnyk.

 

Which is stupid because it means BT basically paid Ramo $3.8-mil to buy someone else's 3rd round pick eventually.

[travel_dude]

Exactly. I don't think the trade route is an option for either HIller or Ramo becuase your right if a team wanted HIller they would have dealt for him int he offseason or in Ramos case signed him as a UFA. I think the only way the Flames trade one of them within the next month or so is an injury to another teams starter and they need the depth. Otherwise, I think you are going to have to hold on to them and see what teams become dissapointed in their goalie situation and want to address it, ala the Wild last year with Dubnyk.

 

Low risk move that really just ties up money in a season where we have some cap space.  You still have the option to demote any of them and paying them NHL money to play in the AHL.

 

 

Which is stupid because it means BT basically paid Ramo $3.8-mil to buy someone else's 3rd round pick eventually.

 

You re-sign the guy that took you past the 1st round.  If he becomes a traded player, you have only spent the money for the games he is on the team.  If Hiller is traded due to Ramo being the starter, then he looks like a genius.

[cross16]

Which is stupid because it means BT basically paid Ramo $3.8-mil to buy someone else's 3rd round pick eventually.

 

I don't agree it was stupid. Cap room is irrelevant to them this year and they are a cap team so money doesn't matter either. Ortio was not good in camp last year and has not played enough in the NHL to cal him proven. Sure people are going to say it looks stupid now that Ortio is playing well in camp but what if he didn't? What if he struggled, what if he struggles to start the season? The Flames were that close to have Jon Gilles as thier backup.

 

Its an expenseive backup, but when money is not an object why not get someone the organization is famaliar with? I would argue it was the opposite of stupid.

 

I mentioned this year, Derek Wills did on the radio as well, but what if its Ortio that is on the trade block? What if a team calls you up and offers a 1st rounder or a young player for Ortio thinking he is the guy? What if you get a 2nd and 3rd rounder? I don't think any of this are likely, but I also would not say they are impossible. Signing Ramo opened up multiple options for the Flames with very little downside.

[Wreckening]

Which is stupid because it means BT basically paid Ramo $3.8-mil to buy someone else's 3rd round pick eventually.

Huh? How do you figure that?

 

Simple fact is BT didn't know what kind of situation he had in the crease coming into this season. Was Ortio going to come in and have another lack-luster camp like he did last year? And if he did, where would that of left the Flames if they didn't sign Ramo? Scrambling for another goalie that they would have had to pay a premium price on either through FA or trade. I don't like the 3.8-mil contract Ramo has but it is insurance and its only for 1 year.

 

The only reason, in my opinion, that one of Ramo or Hiller haven't been moved yet is because teams are sitting on their netminding to start the year. I think after the first month goes by and teams see what they have the market for goalies will heat up a little. I'm encouraged by the way all 3 of our goalies have played thus far in the preseason. They are only building their stock.

[The_People1]

You re-sign the guy that took you past the 1st round.  If he becomes a traded player, you have only spent the money for the games he is on the team.  If Hiller is traded due to Ramo being the starter, then he looks like a genius.

I don't agree it was stupid. Cap room is irrelevant to them this year and they are a cap team so money doesn't matter either. Ortio was not good in camp last year and has not played enough in the NHL to cal him proven. Sure people are going to say it looks stupid now that Ortio is playing well in camp but what if he didn't? What if he struggled, what if he struggles to start the season? The Flames were that close to have Jon Gilles as thier backup.

 

Its an expenseive backup, but when money is not an object why not get someone the organization is famaliar with? I would argue it was the opposite of stupid.

 

I mentioned this year, Derek Wills did on the radio as well, but what if its Ortio that is on the trade block? What if a team calls you up and offers a 1st rounder or a young player for Ortio thinking he is the guy? What if you get a 2nd and 3rd rounder? I don't think any of this are likely, but I also would not say they are impossible. Signing Ramo opened up multiple options for the Flames with very little downside.

Huh? How do you figure that?

 

Simple fact is BT didn't know what kind of situation he had in the crease coming into this season. Was Ortio going to come in and have another lack-luster camp like he did last year? And if he did, where would that of left the Flames if they didn't sign Ramo? Scrambling for another goalie that they would have had to pay a premium price on either through FA or trade. I don't like the 3.8-mil contract Ramo has but it is insurance and its only for 1 year.

 

The only reason, in my opinion, that one of Ramo or Hiller haven't been moved yet is because teams are sitting on their netminding to start the year. I think after the first month goes by and teams see what they have the market for goalies will heat up a little. I'm encouraged by the way all 3 of our goalies have played thus far in the preseason. They are only building their stock.

 

$3.8-mil can be much better spent guys.  We're going to have one goalie sit and watch games having popcorn for a couple of months until the goalie market opens up again.  Or worse, you send one of Hiller or Ramo to AHL for conditioning stints when we're trying to develop Gillies (and Schneider) in the AHL.

 

I was baffled by Ramo's re-signing without trading Hiller this summer and I still am to this moment.  I'm waiting for the next move to make this move a good move, and that's why i know that was not a good move to begin with.

[robrob1974]

We have to remember this is still just preseason. We know Ortio did well in his small sample last year. We don't know what he will be like long term.

He hasn't come out and stole the #1 spot in years past. Has he this year? What has his competition been like so far?

[travel_dude]

$3.8-mil can be much better spent guys.  We're going to have one goalie sit and watch games having popcorn for a couple of months until the goalie market opens up again.  Or worse, you send one of Hiller or Ramo to AHL for conditioning stints when we're trying to develop Gillies (and Schneider) in the AHL.

 

I was baffled by Ramo's re-signing without trading Hiller this summer and I still am to this moment.  I'm waiting for the next move to make this move a good move, and that's why i know that was not a good move to begin with.

 

What did we need to have besides two good goalies?  We have too many players as it is right now.  We are going to have to expose somebody to waivers as it is.  What quality player could we have gotten for $3.8m?  Franson?  We have 7 guys on NHL deals and 4 left to deal with.  Belesky?  Hodgson?

 

Schneider is in the WHL.  Simpson is the current backup.  If you demoted somebody, Simpson would go to the ECHL.  He's on an AHL deal, so it's not a loss of a prospect, so much.

[MAC331]

Who are the teams that actually need a NHL ready goalie such as Ortio ? Many teams shored up their goaltending in the offseason.

Are we maybe worrying to much over losing Ortio ?

[The_People1]

Schneider is in the WHL.  Simpson is the current backup.  If you demoted somebody, Simpson would go to the ECHL.  He's on an AHL deal, so it's not a loss of a prospect, so much.

 

I stand corrected on that.  Thanks.

Who are the teams that actually need a NHL ready goalie such as Ortio ? Many teams shored up their goaltending in the offseason.

Are we maybe worrying to much over losing Ortio ?

 

Based on pre-season, i think many teams would pick up Ortio off waivers and drop their back-up to the minors or cast them off to the abyss.

[travel_dude]

Who are the teams that actually need a NHL ready goalie such as Ortio ? Many teams shored up their goaltending in the offseason.

Are we maybe worrying to much over losing Ortio ?

Many teams have backups that are not that good.  The Oilers have two career backups and a prospect.  Other teams signed goalies in FA.  Evaluation in pre-season help GM's know where they are.

 

A developed prospect goalie with better than average NHL game stats available for the total cost of $600k?  What is the risk to any NHL team?  Carry one less F or D until you evaluate him?  Send him back to the Flames if he doesn't work out?

 

We can debate all we want about how high the risk is, but in the end, it is a risk.  BT signed Raymond and Engelland to avoid risk.  He signed Ramo to avoid risk.  It's more about what the loss of Ortio means.  We developed a player for years.  He is finally at the NHL backup-capable level.  If Ramo or Hiller stumbles or is injured, they we are hooped. 

[The_People1]

We can debate all we want about how high the risk is, but in the end, it is a risk.  BT signed Raymond and Engelland to avoid risk.  He signed Ramo to avoid risk.  It's more about what the loss of Ortio means.  We developed a player for years.  He is finally at the NHL backup-capable level.  If Ramo or Hiller stumbles or is injured, they we are hooped. 

 

I think we should also be reminded that Hiller was signed as a stop gap.  He was not signed as a permanent long term goalie.

 

Well, his time is up because Ortio is ready.  The next step is elementary and should be dealt with accordingly.

[MAC331]

I think we should also be reminded that Hiller was signed as a stop gap.  He was not signed as a permanent long term goalie.

 

Well, his time is up because Ortio is ready.  The next step is elementary and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

Some how I don't think Flames management quite see it as you do. They signed a number of these players to fill holes with reliable veterans for a reason. Rebuild generally take a good 3 years to reap any real benefits of prospect growth. Hiller and Ramo provide stability in the net, it is why they are both still here. Hiller was signed for 2 years and I expect the Flames will honor that deal unless someone comes asking for Hiller. Ramo on a 1 year deal has the experience Ortio doesn't and if he stands out I expect the Flames will sign him to an extension. I think we will see them try to pass Ortio through waivers.

[robrob1974]

I feel like we are worrying too much about waiving Ortio.

[s4xon]

OP list updated.

 

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/community/topic/19028-goaltending/?p=609370

[conundrumed]

I think we should also be reminded that Hiller was signed as a stop gap.  He was not signed as a permanent long term goalie.

 

Well, his time is up because Ortio is ready.  The next step is elementary and should be dealt with accordingly.

Whatev.

Does experience in net mean nothing to no one?

[jjgallow]

I agree. You can't really say he has "proven" he can win in the NHL when he has only played 15 NHL games. Sample size is too small and I also agree that Ortio tends to start very strong and then really tail off.

 

I like Ortio and I think he has the skill set to be an NHL starter but he needs to prove it. So far, I think he's come into camp and taken a step (last year I thought he was awful in camp) so that is a positive but he needs to keep proving himself. I wouldn't love losing Ortio on waivers but I think an opion that no one seems to want to mention is trading Ortio. If the Flames don't feel Ortio is a long term starter, and thats a fair assesment IMO, it may be Ortio who gets traded and they run with Ramo/HIller again. I think its an unlikely option because it sure sounds like the Flames want to see what they ahve in Ortio which I think is smart.

 

I would question what the value is in being a "proven NHL winning goaltender", and why on earth we would trade a young prospect because they can't meet this criteria.   Seems nothing short of a self-defeatest paradox.

 

I think we need to decide whether goaltenders deserve a chance, or don't deserve a chance. 

 

Ramo, and Hiller, started their Flames careers...very poorly.  Much worse than Ortio.  In Ramo's case, he too had little/no NHL experience.  Yet the overwhelming opinion on here was "give him a chance, it takes time to evaluate".  there was no trade talk.  It was all patience and virtue.   And has it paid off?  Personally, I would say no.  He is sub-par.  But I know that Most on this thread would in fact defend the patience Ramo was given.

 

If that is our attitude with KHL veterans with little or no NHL experience and youth not on their side, then when a young prospect like Ortio comes in, and starts Considerably better than Ramo OR Hiller did in their first 15 games here, the call for patience should be a no-brainer.  Shouldn't it?   

 

It has always seemed strange that the same people who preach patience and development with 26 year old KHLers who have limited potential, have the completely opposite approach with 22 year old prospects with nearly unlimited potential and a far superior debut, not even taking age/experience into consideration.  I really have no idea how either trade talk, or waivers, for young goalie prospects with nearly unlimited potential, is in this thread as a valid thought process worth discussion.  But, maybe that's just me.

[xmiika]

I feel like too many 

 

 

I would question what the value is in being a "proven NHL winning goaltender", and why on earth we would trade a young prospect because they can't meet this criteria.   Seems nothing short of a self-defeatest paradox.

 

I think we need to decide whether goaltenders deserve a chance, or don't deserve a chance. 

 

Ramo, and Hiller, started their Flames careers...very poorly.  Much worse than Ortio.  In Ramo's case, he too had little/no NHL experience.  Yet the overwhelming opinion on here was "give him a chance, it takes time to evaluate".  there was no trade talk.  It was all patience and virtue.   And has it paid off?  Personally, I would say no.  He is sub-par.  But I know that Most on this thread would in fact defend the patience Ramo was given.

 

If that is our attitude with KHL veterans with little or no NHL experience and youth not on their side, then when a young prospect like Ortio comes in, and starts Considerably better than Ramo OR Hiller did in their first 15 games here, the call for patience should be a no-brainer.  Shouldn't it?   

 

It has always seemed strange that the same people who preach patience and development with 26 year old KHLers who have limited potential, have the completely opposite approach with 22 year old prospects with nearly unlimited potential and a far superior debut, not even taking age/experience into consideration.  I really have no idea how either trade talk, or wavers, for young goalie prospects with nearly unlimited potential, is in this thread as a valid thought process worth discussion.  But, maybe that's just me.

 

I agree 100%

 

Not to mention that Ortio was (and still is, I think) mentored by the "Finnish Goalie Whisperer" Urpo "Upi" Ylonen, who also mentored Kipper and Niittymaki among others... Ramo is not from "Upi's farm" and it shows in his quite poor rebound control...

[xstrike]

I'd like to see Hiller and Ortio get the nod. I know people argue that we'll lose Ramo for nothing to the KHL but I think what we get to retain makes up for it. There's no worry about whether Ortio would clear waivers (so we don't lose a prospect by not keeping Ramo) and we will retain two goalies with two different styles. That's the biggest thing for me. Hiller is more positional, Ortio and Ramo more athletic. I'd want two styles over one and I don't want to chance Ortio not clearing so to me, Ramo is the most logical choice to release. I'm kinda surprised we even signed him given our GK situation. Just my one cent (because I lack enough hockey knowledge to give two cents).

[travel_dude]

I would question what the value is in being a "proven NHL winning goaltender", and why on earth we would trade a young prospect because they can't meet this criteria.   Seems nothing short of a self-defeatest paradox.

 

I think we need to decide whether goaltenders deserve a chance, or don't deserve a chance. 

 

Ramo, and Hiller, started their Flames careers...very poorly.  Much worse than Ortio.  In Ramo's case, he too had little/no NHL experience.  Yet the overwhelming opinion on here was "give him a chance, it takes time to evaluate".  there was no trade talk.  It was all patience and virtue.   And has it paid off?  Personally, I would say no.  He is sub-par.  But I know that Most on this thread would in fact defend the patience Ramo was given.

 

If that is our attitude with KHL veterans with little or no NHL experience and youth not on their side, then when a young prospect like Ortio comes in, and starts Considerably better than Ramo OR Hiller did in their first 15 games here, the call for patience should be a no-brainer.  Shouldn't it?   

 

It has always seemed strange that the same people who preach patience and development with 26 year old KHLers who have limited potential, have the completely opposite approach with 22 year old prospects with nearly unlimited potential and a far superior debut, not even taking age/experience into consideration.  I really have no idea how either trade talk, or waivers, for young goalie prospects with nearly unlimited potential, is in this thread as a valid thought process worth discussion.  But, maybe that's just me.

 

Ortio and Ramo both have potential.  We gave Ramo more rope because he had flashes of brilliance.  B2B shutouts, winning a game for the team.  

 

My opinion of Ramo is based on what I have seen.  Yes, he tends to overplay, but no different than a d-man doing the slide; Russell and Wideman do this at time.  It either works or it doesn't.  It works when the goalie makes the initial stop.  It doesn't when a forward is at the other side of the net, unchallenged.

 

We can carry 3 goalies to start the season, so we can look for a trade opportunity.  I think it is time to pick one vet and play Ortio.

If he is a starter in the making, he will shine.  If he is just a McBackup, then we look elsewhere for the replacement starter.  A vet + Ortio is likely to be no worse than Hiller/Ramo.  

[MAC331]

Ortio and Ramo both have potential.  We gave Ramo more rope because he had flashes of brilliance.  B2B shutouts, winning a game for the team.  

 

My opinion of Ramo is based on what I have seen.  Yes, he tends to overplay, but no different than a d-man doing the slide; Russell and Wideman do this at time.  It either works or it doesn't.  It works when the goalie makes the initial stop.  It doesn't when a forward is at the other side of the net, unchallenged.

 

We can carry 3 goalies to start the season, so we can look for a trade opportunity.  I think it is time to pick one vet and play Ortio.

If he is a starter in the making, he will shine.  If he is just a McBackup, then we look elsewhere for the replacement starter.  A vet + Ortio is likely to be no worse than Hiller/Ramo.  

I don't think you can over state the importance of experience in your net. Ortio will get his opportunity whether it will be with the Flames remains to be seen. This is a similar situation to how we ended up with Kiprusoff.

[travel_dude]

I don't think you can over state the importance of experience in your net. Ortio will get his opportunity whether it will be with the Flames remains to be seen. This is a similar situation to how we ended up with Kiprusoff.

Kipper prevented us from developing a proper backup.  Having both Ramo and Hiller again this season does the same thing.  Ortio

needs to play this year to see what he really is.  Otherwise, we are forced to go with him next year as a starter, assuming he even re-signs.

[cross16]

I would question what the value is in being a "proven NHL winning goaltender", and why on earth we would trade a young prospect because they can't meet this criteria.   Seems nothing short of a self-defeatest paradox.

 

I think we need to decide whether goaltenders deserve a chance, or don't deserve a chance. 

 

Ramo, and Hiller, started their Flames careers...very poorly.  Much worse than Ortio.  In Ramo's case, he too had little/no NHL experience.  Yet the overwhelming opinion on here was "give him a chance, it takes time to evaluate".  there was no trade talk.  It was all patience and virtue.   And has it paid off?  Personally, I would say no.  He is sub-par.  But I know that Most on this thread would in fact defend the patience Ramo was given.

 

If that is our attitude with KHL veterans with little or no NHL experience and youth not on their side, then when a young prospect like Ortio comes in, and starts Considerably better than Ramo OR Hiller did in their first 15 games here, the call for patience should be a no-brainer.  Shouldn't it?   

 

It has always seemed strange that the same people who preach patience and development with 26 year old KHLers who have limited potential, have the completely opposite approach with 22 year old prospects with nearly unlimited potential and a far superior debut, not even taking age/experience into consideration.  I really have no idea how either trade talk, or waivers, for young goalie prospects with nearly unlimited potential, is in this thread as a valid thought process worth discussion.  But, maybe that's just me.

 

 

Never said they should trade him and in fact if you read the entire post I said I didn't think that was a smart idea. is it an idea that I think shoudl be rejected? No. if a team called up and wanted to offer a first round pick for Ortio i'm aboslutley listening and thinking about that. You cannot dismiss trading anyone and the point of my post was to remind people of that.

 

I am not on the same page as you in regrads to Ortios potential. I like Ortio and do think he could be a solid NHL starter if he takes some more steps, but unlimited potential or star potential? i'm not there.

[JTech780]

We all like Ortio and we all want to see what he can do, I think everyone here can agree on that point. What Ortio's potential is and if he is ready for the next step is another debate.

I take the approach of being cautiously optimistic. I think he could be ready to be a back up, but I still not 100% sold on that. He is nowhere near ready to be a NHL starter at this point. He hasn't shown any level of consistency and his overall stats don't jump out at you.

We really need to temper our expectations of what Ortio is at this point, he has 15 career games at the NHL level and a sub par .899 save % in those games.

I agree that I would hate to lose the player, but if he isn't cutting it we will need to have both Ramo and Hiller around. In the words of Josh Donaldson "This isn't the try league. This is the get it done league."