Goaltending

[WRuCOS]

I think Ramo is still the better goalie vs. Hiller, but the "happy feet" criticism is very valid. He needs to work on his positioning and over work on easier saves.

[kehatch]

Ramo wasn't great Tuesday. He made some huge saves, especially in OT. But the second and third goals should have been stopped. His rebound control was off. His positioning wasn't great. He didn't look calm.

[WRuCOS]

I don't think the flames as a whole have been calm in this series.

 

It's fairly evident that the Ducks are bigger, faster and better everywhere, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if they don't utilize it.

 

Flames are getting better with each game in this series and with that, Anaheim less confident.

 

Should be a great game #4! Hoping Ramo can hold the fort, I don't think Hiller is any better at this point.

[travel_dude]

Ramo wasn't great Tuesday. He made some huge saves, especially in OT. But the second and third goals should have been stopped. His rebound control was off. His positioning wasn't great. He didn't look calm.

 

He made two or three saves when it counted.  We won because he made those saves.  He was not the go-to guy in the last month, so he is ready, but a little off.  I think he gets the rest of the games in this series.

[phoenix66]

This bears putting in the proper thread, .. just listened to a great discussion on FAN960 regarding our upcoming goalie situation, and they made an awsome point that this is a very critical decision that needs to be made, and could either move the franchise  forward or set us back 3 years.

It boils down to Ortio.. the Flames need to be 100% SURE of what they have in Ortio, and on top of that need to be RIGHT.If you can be both , we will be fine.

 

Joni is either (A) the next coming and #1 of our goaltenders, or ( the second coming of Curtis McIlhenney

 

If we believe he is in fact the Next one, then we also need to believe he will be #1 by Seasons end, in which case, it really does not matter who stays or who goes of the other .. either will be a solid backup to Joni 

 

If we believe this , and we are wrong .. then we have situation where Brad Thiessen is our back up and a legitimate #1 option was sent away either by trade or walked for free

 

If we believe hes not ready, or not the heir apparent to the throne, then you sign ramo ,and plan to send him down and risk waivers

chances are if we aren't convinced, other teams aren't either and he clears

 

If he doesnt clear and we are right , then he is Curtis M.. and so what 

if he doesnt clear and we're wrong , hes the next Martin St Louis we get to talk about for the next 20 years

 

So  i guess it comes down to , What is Joni Ortio?? i personally believe hes our next #1 but will be taken out by Gillies

For this season , if ends up running with it , then I think Hiller is a better backup Goalie... if Ortio is the Backup , then he should be backup to Ramo

Most ideal and realistic in my mind is hes ready for NHL but not for #1.. so best case scenario is to trade Hiller and get Ramo signed 

[DirtyDeeds]

Hiller has clearly the best stats of the 3 goalies:

 

In the playoffs his stats are still better even though the impression is Ramo was better because Hiller got pulled:

[phoenix66]

Hiller has clearly the best stats of the 3 goalies:

 

In the playoffs his stats are still better even though the impression is Ramo was better because Hiller got pulled:

 Its the stats you dont see. 3 less starts and Ramo faced nearly the same amount of shots, id say many of the quality variety. Hiller has a knack of early soft goals, Ramo made it past the 1st period more often.

Hartley clearly has more faith/trust in Ramo.. and id have to go back and reconfirm , but im pretty sure Ramo faced more of the higher quality opposition.

 

Hiller is what he is.. Ramo is younger and still getting better , the fact they are even close to being equal gives Ramo the edge IMO

 

Dont get me wrong , id love to have the same set up as last year , i really like Hiller .. but we dont have the luxury of allowing Ortio to eventually take one out..we only get one shot at this , and we need to get it right .

[Fowl]

Your stats are meaningful, but given the choice, I would take Ramo over Hiller. Hiller is just not the same goalie he used to be prior to the vertigo battle. You get him moving side to side behind the net, he gets lost, and out of position.

Anaheim exploited him in the same way that he was exploited when he was in the Ducks net.

[phoenix66]

just as a footnote addition -- if you look at the teams we need to beat , or the teams we are striving to overtake, outside of playoffs:

 

Anaheim: Ramo 1-0  Hiller 1(OT)-2

St Louis:  Ramo no starts   Hiller 0-3

Chicago: No starts    Hiller  1-2

Los Angeles:Ramo   no starts    3-1

 

so while Hiller may have seen the starts against the big boys, his record wasnt sparking .. and while im the first to admit team play makes a difference, we need someone that steals those games.. Ramo more often that not has that next level capability..

 

 

 

But it still comes down to Ortio-- if we believe he is the next one and ready , then Hiller would get the soft back up mop up details and i believe excel at it...  if we believe he is just back up material at least for now, then Ramo is the better choice for trying to steal wins from the leagues best we are chasing 

[travel_dude]

Hiller has clearly the best stats of the 3 goalies:

 

In the playoffs his stats are still better even though the impression is Ramo was better because Hiller got pulled:

Hiller was lights out for a good stretch in the early season. The Chicago win was one where he stole the win. In the playoffs, Hiller started against the Nucks, for every game, and was really good for most of the series, except for the last game. I don't really fault Hiller for that game, but it almost cost us. Against Anaheim, the first 2 games was the most important, but Hiller was just OK. Ramo came in and did a good, not great, job.

My only point is that stats on paper look deceiving. I think signing Ramo is a low-risk move, since the alternative is going with Hiller and Ortio. Ortio's body of NHL work last year was great, and bad. I can't tell you which Ortio will be here next season.

[The_People1]

I recall from a few years ago, Ramo was not happy being a backup in the NHL and nearly refused to come over to North America because of it.  He wanted to be a starter.  Although given the state of the KHL, i'm sure we're safe he won't bolt back to the KHL, I also don't believe the Flames will be his first choice on July 1st as long as Hiller is here.

 

He has options, like Edmonton for example.

[robrob1974]

Ramo held Anahiem to two goals for the most part, in regular time. He was 2nd star two games in a row, and you can't win if you're only scoring 2 goals no matter how much Ramo let in.

Game 5, Ramo held them to two goals up until OT. He gave the Flames an excellent chance to win.

Although, I think when he is calm he is more effective. Send him to Phoenix and he becomes the next Dubnyk as proper coaching could be key to his technique.

I see more upside in Ramo.

I think not signing him could bite us in the behind.

[DirtyDeeds]

re:

 

 

 

The problem with DD was not technique. it was confidence. 

[xstrike]

I think what needs to be remembered is the style of goaltending. Hiller is more positional, Ramo is very aggressive. What style does Ortio have? It would make more sense to have one of each type and not two of one type. So that factors into which tender to retain.

[robrob1974]

I have a feeling they're going to let Ramo walk. Nothing really informed, just a gut. As much as I like Ramo, I think he's the odd man out. 

[Wreckening]

I have a feeling they're going to let Ramo walk. Nothing really informed, just a gut. As much as I like Ramo, I think he's the odd man out. 

You may be right but I think Ramo has more upside to his game than a declining Hiller. My money is on Hiller being traded, maybe in a multi-player deal to boot.

[robrob1974]

Something about Ramo's exit interviews. It just feels like they haven't said much, and although he's not concerned because things are going to fall where they're supposed to, he said a lot when he said nothing. 

[Wreckening]

Something about Ramo's exit interviews. It just feels like they haven't said much, and although he's not concerned because things are going to fall where they're supposed to, he said a lot when he said nothing. 

Remember last year though Burke came out and basically anointed Ramo as the starter, then they went and signed Hiller. I think Treliving is playing his cards close to the chest this year and no promises have been made to any player. 

[tmac70]

Something about Ramo's exit interviews. It just feels like they haven't said much, and although he's not concerned because things are going to fall where they're supposed to, he said a lot when he said nothing. 

I watched all 3 vids on their exits. Hiller was pissed he couldn't finish the Ducks series, Ramo is confident in abilities and would be happy here, but is confident moving to another location. Ortio, he knows that he has to earn a spot next season.

 

I found Ramo more positive about the team and the culture than Hiller.  By letting Ramo walk you now assume one of the goalies we have in the system will be equal or better than what we lose in Ramo.  Largest part of our success this year was improved goal tending, I shudder to think what would have been with out it.

 

Goal tending was or strongest asset last year.  So my question is why would anyone want now make moves to create a weakness where there wasn't one.

[MAC331]

QUESTION: What team could really use Hiller heading into next year (outside of Edmonton) LOL ?

My thoughts are re-sign Ramo and bring up Ortio.

Could we get a decent pick from the team Hiller would go to ?

[travel_dude]

I watched all 3 vids on their exits. Hiller was pissed he couldn't finish the Ducks series, Ramo is confident in abilities and would be happy here, but is confident moving to another location. Ortio, he knows that he has to earn a spot next season.

 

I found Ramo more positive about the team and the culture than Hiller.  By letting Ramo walk you now assume one of the goalies we have in the system will be equal or better than what we lose in Ramo.  Largest part of our success this year was improved goal tending, I shudder to think what would have been with out it.

 

Goal tending was or strongest asset last year.  So my question is why would anyone want now make moves to create a weakness where there wasn't one.

 

I found Hiller's comments to be different than the party line Hartley was saying the whole year about having two great guys that fed off one another. Hiller did say that it suited the team, but he hates to get stuck on the bench when he feels he is ready to play. Most of that was probably due to losing his spot in the 2nd round.  Had he played game 2, we may have seen another Hiller, but Hartley believed the book was too well known to be able to come back.

 

Goaltending was good to great last season, but our biggest asset was team scoring.  No way we would have made the playoffs without getting (near) league-leading scoring.  Our games weren't 2-1, 1-0 as often as we could have used.

 

Hiller/Ramo is our best bet to repeat next season.  If Hiller starts to regress, then we move him out prior to TDL.

[DirtyDeeds]

You may be right but I think Ramo has more upside to his game than a declining Hiller. My money is on Hiller being traded, maybe in a multi-player deal to boot.

There is nothing to indicate Hiller is in any "declining stage" of his career.

 

In fact he has pretty much had a career year, his vertigo seems to have been cured, as the doctors announced.

 

 

If anything Hiller is a very respectable and consistant #1 Goaltender.

[JTech780]

QUESTION: What team could really use Hiller heading into next year (outside of Edmonton) LOL ?

My thoughts are re-sign Ramo and bring up Ortio.

Could we get a decent pick from the team Hiller would go to ?

I think there isn't too many teams that would be interested in Hiller, Buffalo, Edmonton, San Jose and maybe Toronto depending on what they do with Bernier.

I don't see any of those teams giving up very much to acquire Hiller, 3rd pick at most.

The other issue is there are a few other options out there that might look better than Hiller. Niemi is a UFA, he's won a cup and puts up solid numbers similar to Hiller. Niemi would only cost a contract. Martin Jones could be available if LA wants to try and acquire another defenseman. Jones is young and has put up some solid numbers, so a rebuilding team like Edmonton or Buffalo could be looking at him. If Toronto decides to move on from Bernier, I am sure there will be a few suitors for him. Ottawa has 3 goalies, with any of Anderson, Lehner, or the Hamburgler being available. Detroit might want to try and move Jimmy Howard with Mrazek stepping up.

I am not saying that Hiller can't be moved, I just don't think we will get as much as we would like, and it won't be easy. I think it mist likely come down to waiting to see if a team has an injury in training camp.

On a side note, what about targeting Robin Lehner from Ottawa and letting him and Ortio fight it out for the back up job. Lehner still has a ton of upside. I was a big fan of his when he first came up.

[cross16]

I agree Jtech. Honestly if you got a 4th round pick for hiller I'd actually be impressed and I think if he were to be dealt that would be a reasonable return to expect. A 3rd isn't out of the question but the only reason I think Dubnyk got a 3rd was the wild became a bit desperate to address their goaltending. You don't have that same desperation in the offseason.

The reality is that hiller is an older and average staring goalie with one year on his deal. If you are trading for him you arnt trading for him to be the guy you a trading for him to be part of a short term solution and unfortunately right now on the market ther are other short term solutions that don't cost anything. I think moving hiller may be difficult so while I personally would rather have Ramo I think the flames may get forced into keeping hiller and losing Ramo. I'm not sure I see this two goalie system with Ramo and hiller working again for another season based on what both have said post season. They both toed the party line for the most part but IMO reading between the lines it was no ideal for either.

[MAC331]

I think there isn't too many teams that would be interested in Hiller, Buffalo, Edmonton, San Jose and maybe Toronto depending on what they do with Bernier.

I don't see any of those teams giving up very much to acquire Hiller, 3rd pick at most.

The other issue is there are a few other options out there that might look better than Hiller. Niemi is a UFA, he's won a cup and puts up solid numbers similar to Hiller. Niemi would only cost a contract. Martin Jones could be available if LA wants to try and acquire another defenseman. Jones is young and has put up some solid numbers, so a rebuilding team like Edmonton or Buffalo could be looking at him. If Toronto decides to move on from Bernier, I am sure there will be a few suitors for him. Ottawa has 3 goalies, with any of Anderson, Lehner, or the Hamburgler being available. Detroit might want to try and move Jimmy Howard with Mrazek stepping up.

I am not saying that Hiller can't be moved, I just don't think we will get as much as we would like, and it won't be easy. I think it mist likely come down to waiting to see if a team has an injury in training camp.

On a side note, what about targeting Robin Lehner from Ottawa and letting him and Ortio fight it out for the back up job. Lehner still has a ton of upside. I was a big fan of his when he first came up.

I don't disagree with any of this and thx because its good info to have. If Ortio can still be used in AAA I would stay with all 3 by resigning Ramo. Take this situation into the season and see what happens.

I fully expect EDM to make a deal with OTT for one of their Goalies, Lehner the most likely.