Goaltending

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, CheersMan said:

Is that wishful thinking or am I living in a parallel universe where it is 1-1 in the 2nd period tonight?  

 

um....   maybe i clicked on something I shouldn't have

 

from now on I will stick to the official twitter feed....  :/

 

https://twitter.com/AHLHeat

[kehatch]

21 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not true, it's about both.   Also, the affect of overplaying is clearly cumulative when you look at playoff performance.  It's not just about oh, well he's had a few days off, so it's like the season just started for him.

 

If you play a goalie 81 games in a row, and then there's a 3 day break in the schedule, by this logic, he would be fresh.

 

Fresh or not, he's overplayed and less likely to be effective in the playoffs, as shown countless times in this thread when doing analysis of goalie playoff performances relative to number of regular season games played.

 

We go through this every year an we keep running into the same logic stumbling blocks.  Said goalie didn't play hockey yesterday, so said goalie is therefore "fresh".   We are not understanding what being "overplayed" is.

 

Also, yes, it is about getting Lack starts too.   And I'm not just saying that to invite the obvious ensuing play on words (ok, I sort of am).   But Pittsburgh would have two less cups if Pittsburgh didn't manage to have two goalies ready for the playoffs.  And that process started early in the season.   Not a couple games before the playoffs.

 

Nobody is suggesting anything as dramatic as playing 81 games in a row. I also don't think this has been an ongoing problem for the Flames. The last goalie to play more then 52 games in a season was Kipper. That was in 11/12. 

 

The Flames have had a light schedule work wise and Smith isn't overplayed. Giving him a chance to rebound when he was playing so well (especially of Lack wasn't ready) isn't a problem. Especially before a 4 day break. 

[Flyerfan52]

On 10/18/2017 at 1:33 AM, Zirakzigil said:

 

 

 

Disagree. They are a talented up and coming team. Too many teams are underestimating them. They just manhandled the Oilers tonight. 

After watching the 'Canes/Jets I'm not going to underestimate Carolina. Go with Smith to out duel Darling.

 

To be honest the "Canes scare the heck out of me. This early they don't look great but when you watch them you gain respect.

[Flyerfan52]

22 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not true, it's about both.   Also, the affect of overplaying is clearly cumulative when you look at playoff performance.  It's not just about oh, well he's had a few days off, so it's like the season just started for him.

 

If you play a goalie 81 games in a row, and then there's a 3 day break in the schedule, by this logic, he would be fresh.

 

Fresh or not, he's overplayed and less likely to be effective in the playoffs, as shown countless times in this thread when doing analysis of goalie playoff performances relative to number of regular season games played.

 

We go through this every year an we keep running into the same logic stumbling blocks.  Said goalie didn't play hockey yesterday, so said goalie is therefore "fresh".   We are not understanding what being "overplayed" is.

 

Also, yes, it is about getting Lack starts too.   And I'm not just saying that to invite the obvious ensuing play on words (ok, I sort of am).   But Pittsburgh would have two less cups if Pittsburgh didn't manage to have two goalies ready for the playoffs.  And that process started early in the season.   Not a couple games before the playoffs.

When there are b/b games or a heavy schedule like we have late Dec. Lack will get a lot of games. Right now when getting some points to make up for 1s you might lose later a rested  Smith is our best bet. I'd rather we are the 1s with points in our pocket rather than the 1s playing catch up.

 

Do you realize how silly that high lighted comment is? C'mon, you know that isn't happening. Doh!

 

Lack has never been more than a b/u so don't pretend he'll steal the starting spot (Neither will the kids in the AHL).

We need "W"s & until Smith can't deliver he's the goalie of choice. Lack (& maybe 1 of those future goalies that could displace him) are the mop up crew in games where we figure we can win without Smith as the last line of defense.

 

 

 

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

 

Nobody is suggesting anything as dramatic as playing 81 games in a row. I also don't think this has been an ongoing problem for the Flames. The last goalie to play more then 52 games in a season was Kipper. That was in 11/12. 

 

The Flames have had a light schedule work wise and Smith isn't overplayed. Giving him a chance to rebound when he was playing so well (especially of Lack wasn't ready) isn't a problem. Especially before a 4 day break. 

The problem with this thought is that since Kipper we have tried to fit tandems or three goalies into the goaltending slots.

 

While it is too early to say for sure Smith looks like a bonafide #1. Lack has looked well "Lackluster" so far.

 

So far maybe a few may think Smiths age will prevent him from putting in #1 goalie numbers of games.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

The problem with this thought is that since Kipper we have tried to fit tandems or three goalies into the goaltending slots.

 

While it is too early to say for sure Smith looks like a bonafide #1. Lack has looked well "Lackluster" so far.

 

So far maybe a few may think Smiths age will prevent him from putting in #1 goalie numbers of games.

 

Smith has looked like a true starter.  That's more than we could say last year in the month of October. 

Way too many shots per game, though they are counting anything that even makes it to the net.  

He's far better than I predicted.  I had way more faith in Elliott and was really let down early.

What I like about him is that he can actually stop a breakaway.  It's not a sure goal.  Either is a mistake by a player.    

[Zirakzigil]

On 10/18/2017 at 8:49 PM, kehatch said:

 

It's not about getting Lack starts. It's about getting Smith rest. And so far he hasn't needed it. 

 

I get the school of thought of getting the back up starts. But when you starter is hot and rested you play him. 

 

Also, it sounds like the coach didn't feel Lack was showing well in practice until a couple of practices ago. If true, that factors in as well. 

Highly disagree. With the amount of back to back games and the importance of games down the stretch, you need your backup sharp and able to step in. The longer it takes for Lack to get into meaningful games the less likely hes going to be any good. The way the Flames are playing they cannot afford to have Smith facing 30+ shots a night and playing 70+ games and still have something left for the playoffs. The guy is 35 years old, not 25. 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Lack has never been more than a b/u so don't pretend he'll steal the starting spot (Neither will the kids in the AHL).

We need "W"s & until Smith can't deliver he's the goalie of choice. Lack (& maybe 1 of those future goalies that could displace him) are the mop up crew in games where we figure we can win without Smith as the last line of defense.

 

I'm not disputing your logic here, but in a way you're kind of saying that Lack isn't all that.

 

And, yeah.  I gotta agree.

 

But it does raise the question of why we acquired him, if what you say is true.  Because a Lot of NHL teams DO manage to put together a 1A and 1B pretty consistently each offseason.  And there were options out there.

 

Again, I kind of agree with you on Lack's limitations.  But:

1.  I don't think everyone else on here does.  I've heard some on here say Lack should be the real starter (this was a few weeks ago now).

2.  I think it would be good to confirm.  Because if it's as you say, quite frankly, we should do something about it.  Like, now.

3.  If the kids aren't ready, we should do something about that pretty soon too.  We really should have a 23 year old NHL goalie in the pipeline.  And if we don't, we should be honest about it and do something about it.  It doesn't require a major trade.

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, Zirakzigil said:

Highly disagree. With the amount of back to back games and the importance of games down the stretch, you need your backup sharp and able to step in. The longer it takes for Lack to get into meaningful games the less likely hes going to be any good. The way the Flames are playing they cannot afford to have Smith facing 30+ shots a night and playing 70+ games and still have something left for the playoffs. The guy is 35 years old, not 25. 

 

With the way the Flames are playing they don't have the luxury to start their back up. Hopefully that won't be the case forever. 

 

I am not saying never start Lack. I just don't think the fact he hasn't started yet is a problem. 

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Nobody is suggesting anything as dramatic as playing 81 games in a row. I also don't think this has been an ongoing problem for the Flames. The last goalie to play more then 52 games in a season was Kipper. That was in 11/12. 

 

That's because the Flames have been running them to failure (injury) imho.   81 games was only an illustration of cumulative effect.   It may not be that dramatic, but I would argue that it is still very much a poor habit of the organisation and an ongoing problem.   We have countless examples of it being a problem, such as our very recent punting of Elliot.  Who got us into the playoffs.

 

Quote

 

The Flames have had a light schedule work wise and Smith isn't overplayed. Giving him a chance to rebound when he was playing so well (especially of Lack wasn't ready) isn't a problem. Especially before a 4 day break. 

 

Agreed.   I'm just saying that there will still be some cumulative effect, and there are no free rides.   Also, we will likely pay a price for having a cold backup in the future (as we always do, every year....and then we blame the backup). You're right about tonight, but my point is that you can almost always make that arguement. You could be right about it "81 times" this season with enough reasoning  

 

And while you're right about this game, it got us zero points, had a cumulative effect (however small) on Smith, and leaves Lack colder.   Smith played a good game.  But I'm not seeing a big picture strategy in net.  I almost never do.   I'm not sure if that comes from the GM, or the goalie coach, or inbetween.   But by the end of the season, it always shows.   And then we blame the goalies.  We blame the overworked starter, and we blame the cold backup.                        

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, kehatch said:

 

With the way the Flames are playing they don't have the luxury to start their back up. Hopefully that won't be the case forever. 

 

Lol...we have this arguement every year.   It's almost funny now.  We both know that no matter which goalie they played, they were getting zero points tonight.

 

 

It literally would have made no difference to play Lack.

 

 

1 minute ago, kehatch said:

I am not saying never start Lack. I just don't think the fact he hasn't started yet is a problem. 

 

Maybe not yet for Lack.   It's already an abnormality when you look at other NHL teams.  Whether you call it a problem or not.

 

Look at the Flames for the last 10 years or so, yeah it's a problem.

[jjgallow]

 

Strong game by Gillies last night  (I double-checked this time lol)

 

He's officially got our best save percentage in Stockton, and significantly improved over his own last year.   

 

Obviously it's early, but after an underwhelming post-surgery year, I've been keenly interested to how he responds this year when 110% healthy.    He appears to be returning to his original development curve.   Everything for him may be delayed 2-3 years of what would have been, but we're seeing the improvement return and that makes me very excited about him as a prospect (even if it is only 3 games, including one stinker).

 

What I like about his 3 games, as well, is that he wasn't just a .919 goalie in all three.    In TWO of those games, he performed exceptionally well, like a top AHL goalie getting ready for the big promotion.    And then, one stinker, that averaged things down a little.

 

What I care about is his peak performance levels, and how those are improving.  The consistency comes with time.  It takes years.   He's showing those peak performances this year.   I know, I know, I'm sorry for the video I posted lol.   But in all seriousness that's really what we're looking for.   I'm really encouraged. If he keeps doing what he's doing, he's maybe 10 games out from being regarded as our top goaltending prospect again.   And one of the top 5 goalies in the AHL.  That's where I hope to see this going in the short term.

 

 

Parsons had a stinker...moving on...

 

Somebody by the first name of Joni is doing extremely well in the SHL right now....

[robrob74]

Right now we stand about 18th in Goals Against Average, and that's where we are in the standings. 

 

That's not on Smith as much as it is on the team. Smith has a high SV%, so there ya go. But we are tied for 18th in league standings. It's early, but the Canucks are in the third spot in the Division.

[JTech780]

Sounds like Lack might be getting the start in Nashville.

 

NVM I am out to lunch apparently.

 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

Sounds like Lack might be getting the start in Nashville.

 

NVM I am out to lunch apparently.

 

 

 

I heard the same talk, but just that he would get a start in the B2B.  I think it may be better to use Smith in the game where people are going to be more tired.  I guess they prefer to use the best in the game when they are fresh.  

[cross16]

FWIW, Lack is 6-0 against the Blues with a .938 Save % and 1.63 GAA.

 

Not hard to see what the plan is here. 

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, cross16 said:

FWIW, Lack is 6-0 against the Blues with a .938 Save % and 1.63 GAA.

 

Not hard to see what the plan is here. 

 

That's at least promising to hear.  But I did notice that his only win since playing for the Nucks was in January 2016.  He didn't play them since then.  I hope that Eddie Lack shows up, and his dad is in the stands.

[Zirakzigil]

On 10/20/2017 at 0:08 AM, kehatch said:

 

With the way the Flames are playing they don't have the luxury to start their back up. Hopefully that won't be the case forever. 

 

I am not saying never start Lack. I just don't think the fact he hasn't started yet is a problem. 

Then you are just creating a different problem down the road, and that is a rusty backup when the games are more meaningful. 

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, Zirakzigil said:

Then you are just creating a different problem down the road, and that is a rusty backup when the games are more meaningful. 

I think he will definitely get one of these next two games.

[The_People1]

With Smith's age, we need to factor in more down time to rest him.  60 games is plenty.  Otherwise, the wear and tear will be evident deep in the playoffs and next season too.

[cross16]

I agree the Flames need to monitor games but let's also remember we are 8 games in and Lack has missed 1  maybe obvious start. I think its premature to suggest Lack won't play and Smith will get overplayed. There is lots of time to figure this out. 

[electrical_ace]

Lack sucks!

[Thebrewcrew]

3 minutes ago, electrical_ace said:

Lack sucks!

This game is not Lack's fault. 1st goal horrible turnover by Hamonic, 2nd and 3rd PPG's and the 4th goal was off a freak bounce on a attempted dump in that gave the Blues a golden opportunity.

[electrical_ace]

Ya ok 

[cross16]

I didn't think Lack was great. End of the day he gave you a chance to win which is what your want your backup to do but I thought he was out of position on the 3rd and 4th goals and at least one or both should have been stopped. 

But again, backup and first start of the year he gave them a chance to win.