Goaltending

[Flyerfan52]

17 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Never did hear the conversation, but was listening to the fan yesterday afternoon and they mentioned they had Burke on last week and one of the topics they discussed was expansion. Steinburg said he left the conversation with the impression that CGY will be waiting until after expansion until they decide which way they address the goaltending. If that is the case then likely a move will be made at the draft in CHI.

The interview with BT on the TSN site gave me the impression the Flames are waiting to deal with Vegas.

I hope not as McPhee will corner the market on the almost ready backups & trade the 1s they like least a @ a premium. If we act now the trading team gains a pick (or other exempt asset) while increasing the chance of losing a skater that doesn't fit their plans & we are in the rather unique situation of being able to protect said goalie. After the draft other teams wanting to upgrade @ backup enter the bidding.

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

See and I don't agree and would in fact argue the opposite. 

I think in almost all cases the teams that are at risk of losing backup/younger goalies would prefer that they do. There is no team at risk of losing their starter and IMO losing a backup goalie is of the least amoutn of consequence. Easily replaced and then you keep the rest of your team intact so I actually think there are less teams now that would want to deal a goalie becuase they'd prefer to keep them and hope Vegas takes them in the draft. I think prices are higher now becuse if you want to talk that team into dealing them that team is going to price in not just what does the goalie asset cost but what is the cost to me if I deal said goalie PLUS then lost another member of my team. 

 

I think once the expansion draft is over and teams don't have to worry about protection list, exposure rules etc and the fact that Vegas will take a few goalies I actually think you will see more availability and prices come down. There are so few teams that are really looking for goaltending that I don't see the demand really changing that much. The fact that Flames are the only ones that have a protection spot open really isn't the advantage I think people are making it out to be. There are still going to be one of the very few teams looking for a starter once the expansion draft is over. 

Pretty much exactly this .

There are only a handful of teams that literally WANT to lose a goalie in the ED-- Carolina, Dallas, and maybe Detroit..Pittsburgh(if its Fleury).. so unless we have eyes one of theirs, waiting until after is not going to happen. The bigger names mentioned.. Grubauer, Raanta etc..  if not chosen will stay where they are and come off the market.

I disagree with the bolded.. if it were us, and we had Gillies vulnerable , we would not be wanting to lose him.. thats the Grubauer situation

 

The only other scenario where he wants to wait until after , is if the deal is prearranged with LV.. or perhaps if his target is a UFA

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

What does everyone think is more plausible.

That Treliving is make a conscious decision to not make a deal before the expansion draft for his own reasons?

or that he's made his calls and found that a combination of availability and prices means that it will make more sense to pursue deals after the expansion draft?

 

I'm in the latter camp 100%. 

 

I think that right now nothing it set in stone.  Teams are looking at different scenarios and talking to Vegas about them.  Their initial ask is going to be high for anything they have to trade to other teams.  Things will change.  Especially when Vegas starts announcing deals as early as next week.  The picture is too muddy right now to commit to a particular strategy.

 

I would also say that Vegas will have at least one goalie available for trade June 21st.  What I can't say is that any avilable from Vegas would be any good.  If they pick Grubauer and MAF and Korpisalo, then the lesser will be available.  Swap in Raanta for Korpisalo, and the cost for Raanta would be much higher because of the teams needing a goalie.   NY needs a backup.  CGY needs a starter.  WPG could be in the market.  I don't see the cost being lower.

 

  

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think that right now nothing it set in stone.  Teams are looking at different scenarios and talking to Vegas about them.  Their initial ask is going to be high for anything they have to trade to other teams.  Things will change.  Especially when Vegas starts announcing deals as early as next week.  The picture is too muddy right now to commit to a particular strategy.

 

I would also say that Vegas will have at least one goalie available for trade June 21st.  What I can't say is that any avilable from Vegas would be any good.  If they pick Grubauer and MAF and Korpisalo, then the lesser will be available.  Swap in Raanta for Korpisalo, and the cost for Raanta would be much higher because of the teams needing a goalie.   NY needs a backup.  CGY needs a starter.  WPG could be in the market.  I don't see the cost being lower.

 

  

Does it appear our choices are narrowing down to a choice of Elliott or Mason to go along with Raanta, Grubauer or Korpisalo ?

[travel_dude]

37 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Does it appear our choices are narrowing down to a choice of Elliott or Mason to go along with Raanta, Grubauer or Korpisalo ?

 

I don't think anything has changed since Darling and Bishop were signed.  

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Does it appear our choices are narrowing down to a choice of Elliott or Mason to go along with Raanta, Grubauer or Korpisalo ?

You could add Bernier & Miller but those 2 seem the most popular. Pavalec is available as UFA too. That's barring a trade & overpaying for Schneider or taking on Halak or another passed over in the ED.

The idea seems to be trade for that almost ready b/u but don't spend additional assets for the insurance policy to tandem with him.

Unless the Caps decide to trade Holtby & keep Grubauer the almost ready combined with a guy that has been a starter feels like the way to go.

[MAC331]

4 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

You could add Bernier & Miller but those 2 seem the most popular. Pavalec is available as UFA too. That's barring a trade & overpaying for Schneider or taking on Halak or another passed over in the ED.

The idea seems to be trade for that almost ready b/u but don't spend additional assets for the insurance policy to tandem with him.

Unless the Caps decide to trade Holtby & keep Grubauer the almost ready combined with a guy that has been a starter feels like the way to go.

I will not be shocked if BT resigns Elliott and snags one of Raanta, Grubauer or Korpisalo (another FINN anyone).

[DirtyDeeds]

I hope everyone watched the game tonight and realize now how important it is that this team gets top notch goaltending.

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I hope everyone watched the game tonight and realize now how important it is that this team gets top notch goaltending.

I saw how volatile even great goaltending can be, didn't you ?

[phoenix66]

21 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I saw how volatile even great goaltending can be, didn't you ?

 

just goes to show the matchup of how goalies play against certain teams is pretty telling . Rinne has a wining record against all BUT 2  teams in the league

One Guess who the 1st one is...

 

 

Pittsburgh Penguins

8

1

5

2

26

216

190

.880

3.57

0

2

437:03

17

5

0

Obviously his Kryptonite team

 

kinda neat who the other is....

 

Calgary Flames

20

6

6

4

50

492

442

.898

2.86

1

0

1050:06

31

11

3

 

 

 

If I'm Laviolette I'm starting Saros next game ..

Pittsburgh Penguins

1

1

0

0

1

35

34

.971

1.01

0

0

59:22

0

0

0

 

only 1 game , but he looked pretty darn good in it 

[travel_dude]

Perhaps the Preds should have traded RInne for CJ or Elliott, since they are able to beat the Pengies.

We have to find that goalie that can beat the Ducks.  Nothing else matters.

[MAC331]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Perhaps the Preds should have traded RInne for CJ or Elliott, since they are able to beat the Pengies.

We have to find that goalie that can beat the Ducks.  Nothing else matters.

Playing Saros would not be a stupid idea by any means but I doubt they do it. PIT has switched goalies with success. If anything it points out the importance of having two good capable goalies. There will always be one or two teams that have your number.

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Perhaps the Preds should have traded RInne for CJ or Elliott, since they are able to beat the Pengies.

We have to find that goalie that can beat the Ducks.  Nothing else matters.

Granted this is is slightly different than our situation , Preds play the Penguins 2x a year .. but it does show the benefit of making sure you have a quality backup with a different style. In our case we have a starter who has issues with the Pacific Division

MAF struggles against Ottawa , (somewhat -- 13-9) he hit a wall , they had Murray to change to .

In this situation , they should go straight to Saros and not second guess it 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Granted this is is slightly different than our situation , Preds play the Penguins 2x a year .. but it does show the benefit of making sure you have a quality backup with a different style. In our case we have a starter who has issues with the Pacific Division

MAF struggles against Ottawa , (somewhat -- 13-9) he hit a wall , they had Murray to change to .

In this situation , they should go straight to Saros and not second guess it 

Perhaps it's more simplistic than that.  Maybe MAF isn't that great a goalie over a stretch of time.  Perhaps they intended to go with Murray all along, but due to his early injury they gave it to MAF.  As soon as he was healthy and MAF had a bad game, they had enough of an excuse to put him back in.  Or in the case of Rinne, he goes cold after a week off.  I don't think it matters who you put in nets, if your system is working.  Game 1 was a beer league special for officiating.  Game 2 not a lot better, but a stretch of bad play (3 1/2 minutes) by the TEAM took them from tied on the road in the 3rd period to down by 3.

 

Nashville had more than enough opportunity to score in game 2.  They failed.  

 

Maybe Saros is a kickstart to the team, but somehow I think you stick with the MVP of the playoffs at this point.  

 

EDIT - not trying to be argumentative here, just pointing out that focusing on the goalie style or failure against a certain team doesn't win you a cup.  Whatever gaps you have can be protected elsewhere.

[phoenix66]

31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Perhaps it's more simplistic than that.  Maybe MAF isn't that great a goalie over a stretch of time.  Perhaps they intended to go with Murray all along, but due to his early injury they gave it to MAF.  As soon as he was healthy and MAF had a bad game, they had enough of an excuse to put him back in.  Or in the case of Rinne, he goes cold after a week off.  I don't think it matters who you put in nets, if your system is working.  Game 1 was a beer league special for officiating.  Game 2 not a lot better, but a stretch of bad play (3 1/2 minutes) by the TEAM took them from tied on the road in the 3rd period to down by 3.

 

Nashville had more than enough opportunity to score in game 2.  They failed.  

 

Maybe Saros is a kickstart to the team, but somehow I think you stick with the MVP of the playoffs at this point.  

so you put no stock at all into head to head history?

Its just coincidence MAF was playing like a Conn Smythe winner until he hit the team he historically struggles against

Elliot went from hero to zero, coincidentally against the team he has only beaten once in 10 years 

Rinne was out of this planet , until he faces the team he has only beaten once in 12 years

 

of course Murray was the intended starter , he's the #1.. he may very well have fared just as good.. we don't know his weaknesses yet  (tho  I have noticed he tends to allow bad angle goals a fair bit )

and yes, team play has an effect .. Pitts is a team who picks their spots, and disguises their shot well ..poison to a goalie of Rinne's style. Nashville needs to smother the shooter , not allow direct shots on net ..  Ironically a goalie like Elliot , who style is to play the high percentage and simply be in the way , frustrates a team of shooters like that 

 

they may very well stick with Rinne, but i feel if they do they might be lucky to get one game, Pitts owns him .

The turning point to our playoffs , wasn't starting Elliot .. it was Johnson going down in the 1st 5 minutes of his last start..if we had him more readily available sooner, we could have turned to him after game 2 with more confidence 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Elliot went from hero to zero, coincidentally against the team he has only beaten once in 10 years 

Rinne was out of this planet , until he faces the team he has only beaten once in 12 years

 

You do recall his (and the team's) end-of-season struggles, not just against Ducks?

Rinne against the Ducks also had a healthy Johansson and Fisher.

Rinne against the Hawks had a healthy Fiala.

 

Goalies are voodoo.  That's because the teams in front of them change over time, have injuries, or play in a cup final to a team that has scouted their goalie for the entire playoffs.  MAF had a great playoffs, in the games where his team won or scored more than 4 he let in.  

 

No point in trying to convince you, so I'll let it drop.  You see the goalie's history against certain teams as the reason for the loss.  I see close games that changed as a result of iffy calls and breakdowns of a system that allowed them to win.  How many blown chances to clear a puck do you give another team.  How many odd-man rushes do you allow?

[Flyerfan52]

DGB shared a link to SBNation with an arguement the Flames should trade for Cory Schneider @ a cost of #16OA, Gilles & 1 of Andersson, Hickey or Kylington.

@ 31 with $6 x 5 left on his contract that's a little rich for my blood. Probably worth it for the 1st 2/3 years but since goalies are voodoo that'd be a hard contract to move @ 33/34. He plays a lot but you still need a good b/u for the remaing 20ish games  or in case of injury.

 

Since we don't have a 2nd or 3rd I wonder if the Caps would accept 1 of the 3 D prospects for Grubauer's rights as Shattenkirk & Alzner are probably gone.

[cross16]

34 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

DGB shared a link to SBNation with an arguement the Flames should trade for Cory Schneider @ a cost of #16OA, Gilles & 1 of Andersson, Hickey or Kylington.

@ 31 with $6 x 5 left on his contract that's a little rich for my blood. Probably worth it for the 1st 2/3 years but since goalies are voodoo that'd be a hard contract to move @ 33/34. He plays a lot but you still need a good b/u for the remaing 20ish games  or in case of injury.

 

If it was a first and Gilles that's a no brainer yes but if they wanted one of the D prospects then I would want them to eat 1 mill in salary, and probably add something in on their side, but if they did i'd do it. One of the best goalies in the league and really no reason why he can't stay at that level for at least 5-6 years. You get that without giving up anything off your roster and I think you need to pull the trigger.

Schneider would make the Flames an instant contender in the West. 

[jjgallow]

24 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

DGB shared a link to SBNation with an arguement the Flames should trade for Cory Schneider @ a cost of #16OA, Gilles & 1 of Andersson, Hickey or Kylington.

@ 31 with $6 x 5 left on his contract that's a little rich for my blood. Probably worth it for the 1st 2/3 years but since goalies are voodoo that'd be a hard contract to move @ 33/34. He plays a lot but you still need a good b/u for the remaing 20ish games  or in case of injury.

 

Since we don't have a 2nd or 3rd I wonder if the Caps would accept 1 of the 3 D prospects for Grubauer's rights as Shattenkirk & Alzner are probably gone.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin in describing how horrible this move would be.   It would make our Oli Jokinen acquisition look brilliant.

 

Good thing it's not real.

[Flyerfan52]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin in describing how horrible this move would be.   It would make our Oli Jokinen acquisition look brilliant.

 

Good thing it's not real.

Which of the 2? SBNation's or mine.

[travel_dude]

53 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Since we don't have a 2nd or 3rd I wonder if the Caps would accept 1 of the 3 D prospects for Grubauer's rights as Shattenkirk & Alzner are probably gone.

 

I would do this for Hickey's rights.  I think he would help them more then he would us.  Would hate to give up Andersson or Kylington at this stage.  Maybe I am higher on Kylington due to his skating abilities, but I also think Hickey may be more of a risk to us signing him.

[phoenix66]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You do recall his (and the team's) end-of-season struggles, not just against Ducks?

Rinne against the Ducks also had a healthy Johansson and Fisher.

Rinne against the Hawks had a healthy Fiala.

 

Goalies are voodoo.  That's because the teams in front of them change over time, have injuries, or play in a cup final to a team that has scouted their goalie for the entire playoffs.  MAF had a great playoffs, in the games where his team won or scored more than 4 he let in.  

 

No point in trying to convince you, so I'll let it drop.  You see the goalie's history against certain teams as the reason for the loss.  I see close games that changed as a result of iffy calls and breakdowns of a system that allowed them to win.  How many blown chances to clear a puck do you give another team.  How many odd-man rushes do you allow?

you're right . its just total coincidence the team in front of him just decided to totally suck each and every time he has played Pittsburgh.. or that Ottawa , St Louis and Calgary .. hang Elliot out to dry each time they played Anaheim..  their styles against that team style has 0% weight in those outcomes. We should put our money into 6 all star D and just resign Hiller , cuz to match up the goaltenders to the opposition is silly ..even though we do it with every other position...

[robrob74]

For the argument of why a goalie isn't good against certain teams, could the team be in their heads, and the players confident in that they can beat that goalie as well? 

[phoenix66]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

For the argument of why a goalie isn't good against certain teams, could the team be in their heads, and the players confident in that they can beat that goalie as well? 

I think it definitely becomes that . Like our streak against Anaheim, there is a definite mental factor there on both sides.

But it starts with exploiting tendencies, like if a goalie has a weak glove hand, players learn to shoot there etc..

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I think it definitely becomes that . Like our streak against Anaheim, there is a definite mental factor there on both sides.

But it starts with exploiting tendencies, like if a goalie has a weak glove hand, players learn to shoot there etc..

 

With CGY vs ANA, it must have been in the heads of every player that has played for the Flames since 2004.