Goaltending

[DirtyDeeds]

1 minute ago, phoenix66 said:

did you watch the St Louis Minnesota series??  St Louis had no right to win that series aside from Allen .. to a lesser degree the same can be said of Nashville

I say quite confidently we beat Anaheim we make the Conference finals  by maintaining just average goaltending 

But Blues rode a hot goalie into the playoffs and Minny was stumbling into the playoffs .. I would have bet Blues in that series no matter what Minny & stats played like on paper.

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I have to disagree totally .

 

Ramo was here for 3 seasons before we let him go and it was pretty much a career ending injury that did him in.

 

There is no way to compare this to Elliott who has only been here 1 season starting with a coaching and new team style of play.

 

Totally unfair to make this comparison at this stage.

it was the injury that finished him , but that wasn't clear until this season .. whether he had stayed healthy or not the wolves were at the door to purge him

and I was only comparing final year .

If anything he should have been given more leeway as hes 2 years younger with less league experience .. i'm comparing 2 goalies seasons, behind the same team jersey.. one who got better play in front of hm than the other .. 

 

basically 2 goalies.. mirror seasons ..   one people wanted to lynch, the other is being given the benefit of the doubt the other wasn't afforded ..I'm just trying to understand it 

[DirtyDeeds]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

it was the injury that finished him , but that wasn't clear until this season .. whether he had stayed healthy or not the wolves were at the door to purge him

and I was only comparing final year .

If anything he should have been given more leeway as hes 2 years younger with less league experience .. i'm comparing 2 goalies seasons, behind the same team jersey.. one who got better play in front of hm than the other .. 

I was all for keeping him on for 1 more season. He was the reason we were in a playoff position at xmas his last season.. However the length of time it too to recover and the new GM, it did not mesh well. The fans and media were all blaming the goaltending and coaching so BT had to change it up for his new coach to have a chance and fresh start.

 

BT played that card of new coach, new goalies.

 

Funny how GG was pretty much told to keep the Assistant Coaches  and goalie coach.  Usually they are allowed to pick their own. What was his choice the one Associate coach?

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

did you watch the St Louis Minnesota series??  St Louis had no right to win that series aside from Allen .. to a lesser degree the same can be said of Nashville

I say quite confidently we beat Anaheim we make the Conference finals  by maintaining just average goaltending 

 

wow

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I was all for keeping him on for 1 more season. He was the reason we were in a playoff position at xmas his last season.. However the length of time it too to recover and the new GM, it did not mesh well. The fans and media were all blaming the goaltending and coaching so BT had to change it up for his new coach to have a chance and fresh start.

 

BT played that card of new coach, new goalies.

 

Funny how GG was pretty much told to keep the Assistant Coaches  and goalie coach.  Usually they are allowed to pick their own. What was his choice the one Associate coach?

Cameron and Gerard were brought in by GG.. I'm with you on the Goalie coach .. and he had full decision on Gelinas, but kept him and put him in a (arguably ) better role

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I think what is really frustrating in this whole Elliot discussion , is that we seem to have a double standard for some reason.

All the PRO arguments to keeping Elliot are the same arguments that were debated about Ramo ..and we couldn't wait to get the guy out of town.

In the end , we got a Ramo season from Elliot

 

- we argued the team needs to play better in front of Ramo..but no , he's just a bad goalie.. but now the argument is that the team didn't play well in front of Elliot

- Ramo and Elliot both got off to very shaky starts, people called for their heads..  but Elliot saved our season and got us to the playoffs.. well, until his injury Ramo was on a streak that had us back in playoff position 

- We improved the team and play in front of the goaltender .. and yet Ramo finished with a .909 / 2.63  and Elliot got .910/2.55  Elliot did get 10% more wins from his starts though

- in a Flames jersey Ramo was much better in the playoffs 

 

 I was one of the people stating back then there was no point in breaking the bank on a star since the team in front didnt warrant and also we didn't have the cap room to gamble. I'm not saying we dont still have work to do in front , but the team in front on Elliot was leaps ahead of the team in front of Ramo 

 

Just curious why the opposition to upgrading the position , when we clearly got the same results from our #1 guy?

 

I don't know that most would be against upgrading if BT can. If he can get Bishop not many are going to complain, at least at the beginning. LOL

Most of the positioning by posters surrounds money and term along with the effects down through the pipeline goalie prospects. Most fans want immediate satisfaction every season without regard to what the Flames have to spend, in the end it's a business.

With our net positions wide open I am all for a positive change if we can get there. I wouldn't mind seeing a younger goalie that could grow with this group much like Crawford did in Chicago. Here is my honest thoughts regarding the effort to get the best goalie for us. Go for Bishop if we don't get him, try and trade for Mrazek from DET, if this is a no go sign back Elliott for 2 years and move towards Gilles or Parsons.

[jjgallow]

 

There are some phenomenal young goalies which I believe would shock us if we gave them a chance.

 

Alexander Goergiyev, Jonathan Frykholm, Victor Brattstrom, Jonas Arntzen, any one of these goalies is showing every bit as much promise as Tyler Parsons or Gillies ever did, and as far as I am aware, we could just sign them (I think?).

 

Then there's the KHL.  And US College.   We could take a chance on one of the many phenomenal but smaller goalies, with some of the rules changes to equipment.

 

To me, this should be something the Flames are all over.   And should have been, for a while.

[DirtyDeeds]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

There are some phenomenal young goalies which I believe would shock us if we gave them a chance.

 

Alexander Goergiyev, Jonathan Frykholm, Victor Brattstrom, Jonas Arntzen, any one of these goalies is showing every bit as much promise as Tyler Parsons or Gillies ever did, and as far as I am aware, we could just sign them (I think?).

 

Then there's the KHL.  And US College.   We could take a chance on one of the many phenomenal but smaller goalies, with some of the rules changes to equipment.

 

To me, this should be something the Flames are all over.   And should have been, for a while.

But.. but.. We tried the 2 best goalies outside of the NHL and the results were.................      underwhelming 

 

Edit: we did manage to turn Berra into a 2nd rounder though.

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

But.. but.. We tried the 2 best goalies outside of the NHL and the results were.................      underwhelming 

 

Edit: we did manage to turn Berra into a 2nd rounder though.

 

They were never the best, that's the part I just never got, why people saw that.   They were both statistically quite average in the leagues they came from.  Ramo was actually famous for getting scored on from the opposite side of the ice.  And quite frankly, they were old balls too.

 

Clearly if you're switching to North American ice you want to groom a young promising goalie.  IMHO, we have never done that properly.

 

 

I suppose, if we wanted a young up and coming goalie from a respectable league like the SHL, who has great playoff performance, we could try that?

 

http://www.quanthockey.com/shl/en/seasons/2016-17-shl-goalies-playoff-stats.html

Rk	Age		Name	GP	GAA	SV%	W	L	SO	TIME	G	A	P	PIM
1	25		Joni Ortio	7	2.12	0.933	3	4	1	368	0	0	0	0
2	31		David Rautio	11	2.01	0.928	5	5	3	658	0	0	0	0
3	20		Linus Söderström	16	2.11	0.922	12	4	0	993	0	0	0	0
4	26		Joacim Eriksson	5	2.36	0.918	2	3	1	305	0	0	0	0
5	22		Marcus Högberg	6	2.47	0.915	2	4	0	340	0	0	0	0
6	23		Stefan Steen	6	2.97	0.904	2	4	0	364	0	0	0	0
7	24		Johan Gustafsson	14	2.54	0.904	7	7	2	804	0	1	1	2
8	29		Oscar Ahlsenfelt	9	2.65	0.902	5	4	0	566	0	0	0	0
9	19		Felix Sandström	13	2.83	0.901	6	4	2	595	0	1	1	0
10	32		Cristopher Nihlstorp	4	3.16	0.875	2	2	0	247	0	0	0	0

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

But.. but.. We tried the 2 best goalies outside of the NHL and the results were.................      underwhelming 

 

Edit: we did manage to turn Berra into a 2nd rounder though.

and we did go find Rittich.. certainly never heard of him before 

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

and we did go find Rittich.. certainly never heard of him before 

 

Yeah...again....too old, and never even stood out in his previous league.   He turned out surprisingly well but still not well enough to actually mean anything.

[AlbertaBoy12]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yeah...again....too old, and never even stood out in his previous league.   He turned out surprisingly well but still not well enough to actually mean anything.

well hes not that old for a goalie. Honestly it shows you how much voodoo goalies can be, considering ortio is tops in the SHL in the playoffs stats wise, but couldnt do anything in the AHL or NHL to save his life. Sometimes players just cant hack it at the next level.

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

well hes not that old for a goalie. Honestly it shows you how much voodoo goalies can be, considering ortio is tops in the SHL in the playoffs stats wise, but couldnt do anything in the AHL or NHL to save his life. Sometimes players just cant hack it at the next level.

 

*maybe they have better goalie coaches there???

 

And defensemen?

[phoenix66]

14 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yeah...again....too old, and never even stood out in his previous league.   He turned out surprisingly well but still not well enough to actually mean anything.

he's only 24?? A year older than Gillies ? 

and maybe thats the problem , people get wrapped up in the stats from the other league, we've all learned those stats mean nothing .. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's the first one to graduate to backup , he was one of the best in the A this year .

 

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I don't know that most would be against upgrading if BT can. If he can get Bishop not many are going to complain, at least at the beginning. LOL

Most of the positioning by posters surrounds money and term along with the effects down through the pipeline goalie prospects. Most fans want immediate satisfaction every season without regard to what the Flames have to spend, in the end it's a business.

With our net positions wide open I am all for a positive change if we can get there. I wouldn't mind seeing a younger goalie that could grow with this group much like Crawford did in Chicago. Here is my honest thoughts regarding the effort to get the best goalie for us. Go for Bishop if we don't get him, try and trade for Mrazek from DET, if this is a no go sign back Elliott for 2 years and move towards Gilles or Parsons.

i think we are on the same page ,  theres just that fine line I see between rushing your prospects and letting them rot in the minors .

I feel now , if we do the Talbot / Darling thing , we hurt Gillies because the paths are so close together, but Elliot is not going to give us enough bridge  time . I think still Gillies is 3-4 years away from being able to own the net.

Mrazek I like but pretty sure Detroit has him #1 on their depth chart.. If we were to go that style of route I think I'd go after Raanta.. solid backup numbers in 2 cities now .Just that you're gambling he can be a #1 workload again , to high a room for failure 

 

While Bishop is my obvious #1 choice , it would still entail the numbers being good enough to keep him moveable if ever somebody took over ..a proven #1 is always tradeable, and i firmly believe while 6 wont a bad thing , i think you can get him on a 5     numbers wise, Fleury makes most sense.. still plays at a high level.. proven playofffs and shorter term you could always extend if necessary to bridge your gap

Smith would be great but again I dont think he has enough years left at his level to get us to the next

[jjgallow]

23 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

he's only 24?? A year older than Gillies ? 

and maybe thats the problem , people get wrapped up in the stats from the other league, we've all learned those stats mean nothing .. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's the first one to graduate to backup , he was one of the best in the A this year .

 

A good age to enter the NHL, if he's good enough (which the Flames would never risk).   

 

A horrible age to take the First Steps of investing in a new prospect.   

 

The Flames didn't intend either...he was filler.  And that is how they'll treat him.  That is how they have treated him.   Which is unfortunate, because maybe he's more than that, and also because that roster spot could have been used to invest in an actual young prospect (19-21 yrs old) with the potential of being our starter one day.

[Carty]

Darling cost the Canes their lowest 3rd round pick...   Keeping Elliott would cost the Flames their 3rd round pick in 2018, on top of the 35th overall they already gave up...

 

Who would you rather have?...  

 

At $4.15 mil a season for Darling compared to the $2.7 mil the Flames payed Elliott this season, I still take Darling...   But that ship has sailed, and the Flames missed the boat...

 

For me Bishop is still on my short list, and I think his ask for a contract might not be as bad as some might think...   See what the KIngs want, and what could be arranged to trade for Bishop's negotiating rights...  Leave it too long, and a team like the Stars might drive up the price...

 

Any goaltender the Flames are likely going to be able to pick up is a gamble, so is keeping Elliott, and hoping at this stage of his career he can be consistent as a starter is also a risk...   I have no doubt in my mind that Elliott was seriously rattled the last couple of games...   and I just don't want to bet the farm on his being able to turn it around as a dependable starter...   That said, maybe he could thrive as a backup until Gillies or Rittich is ready ...   If it's for the right price...

 

This 1a/1b goaltender approach is not something I want to see repeated...   The Flames need a starter...   and they need to upgrade to get one...

 

 

 t

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

A good age to enter the NHL, if he's good enough (which the Flames would never risk).   

 

A horrible age to take the First Steps of investing in a new prospect.   

 

The Flames didn't intend either...he was filler.  And that is how they'll treat him.  That is how they have treated him.   Which is unfortunate, because maybe he's more than that, and also because that roster spot could have been used to invest in an actual young prospect (19-21 yrs old) with the potential of being our starter one day.

It could be argued the Czech league isnt far off the level of play of College .. and Gillies is at least 3 years away , so he'll be entering the NHL at around 26/27 (as a starter ) if he stays on pace 

he wasn't filler, he was brought on purpose  as a prospect .. trying to find the article , but when he was signed BT said they had been watching and saw things in his game, they wanted to get him playing in North America to see how he adapted 

He will be re-signed 

 

now McCollum.. HE was filler ..  strictly expansion draft reasons, BT said that flat out.. only problem is if he doesn't get claimed we got him for another year 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

The only TC requests they reported were  Brodie(turned it down- family reasons ), Monahan (injury declined) and  Giordano (was thinking about it obviously turned it down ) and  Johnson 

 

I gotta say Brodie continues to disappoint me there.. I think he has declined every time..probably cost him a shot at the World Cup last year . BT was also the WC  GM, that couldn't have left a good impression when 4 people turned him down last year 

 

Yeah, I guess he is selfish for wanting to spend time with his girl.  I believe he cited that as the reason.

[phoenix66]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Yeah, I guess he is selfish for wanting to spend time with his girl.  I believe he cited that as the reason.

hey it's totally his right ..  but i think the panel said it best on 960.. he was hoping to be playing Hockey Til June, was that going to be an inconvenience too?

BT last year , when 4 people declined not due to injury, BT said " i don't get it, I would think Hockey Players would want to be playing Hockey 

 

Your country is asking you to represent them for 2 weeks .. you get to play with the best of the rest, .. in his case,maybe head up a power play , it can only help his game 

He's still going to have more time with his family than anybody playing in the finals will this summer

[DirtyDeeds]

10 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

hey it's totally his right ..  but i think the panel said it best on 960.. he was hoping to be playing Hockey Til June, was that going to be an inconvenience too?

BT last year , when 4 people declined not due to injury, BT said " i don't get it, I would think Hockey Players would want to be playing Hockey 

 

Your country is asking you to represent them for 2 weeks .. you get to play with the best of the rest, .. in his case,maybe head up a power play , it can only help his game 

He's still going to have more time with his family than anybody playing in the finals will this summer

Considering his girlfriends struggles & disease, I would not hesitate to say sorry to my country, if I was in the same situation. There are many things in life more important than your profession. The one caveat in this choice is if they need money for stuff like treatments then I can see him accepting. Does the worlds pay much if anything? or is playing for your country still a "you should want to do it for free thing?"

[AlbertaBoy12]

3 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Considering his girlfriends struggles & disease, I would not hesitate to say sorry to my country, if I was in the same situation. There are many things in life more important than your profession. The one caveat in this choice is if they need money for stuff like treatments then I can see him accepting. Does the worlds pay much if anything? or is playing for your country still a "you should want to do it for free thing?"

Just quoting you because I agree.

 

I really cant believe this is a conversation, brodie doesnt have anything to prove at the world champonships. Brodie had a rough year with his girlfriends disease as you said and I really dont believe its right to judge him not wanting to go to the worlds for whatever reason it is. 

 

No matter how much you love something, you need a break and if you are having family troubles that doesnt make anything easier, im sure plenty of people could speak to that on experience. Im pretty sure NHL players dont get paid for the worlds, but their insurance is covered along with accommodations etc.

 

 

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

They were never the best, that's the part I just never got, why people saw that.   They were both statistically quite average in the leagues they came from.  Ramo was actually famous for getting scored on from the opposite side of the ice.  And quite frankly, they were old balls too.

 

Clearly if you're switching to North American ice you want to groom a young promising goalie.  IMHO, we have never done that properly.

 

 

I suppose, if we wanted a young up and coming goalie from a respectable league like the SHL, who has great playoff performance, we could try that?

 

http://www.quanthockey.com/shl/en/seasons/2016-17-shl-goalies-playoff-stats.html

Rk	Age		Name	GP	GAA	SV%	W	L	SO	TIME	G	A	P	PIM
1	25		Joni Ortio	7	2.12	0.933	3	4	1	368	0	0	0	0
2	31		David Rautio	11	2.01	0.928	5	5	3	658	0	0	0	0
3	20		Linus Söderström	16	2.11	0.922	12	4	0	993	0	0	0	0
4	26		Joacim Eriksson	5	2.36	0.918	2	3	1	305	0	0	0	0
5	22		Marcus Högberg	6	2.47	0.915	2	4	0	340	0	0	0	0
6	23		Stefan Steen	6	2.97	0.904	2	4	0	364	0	0	0	0
7	24		Johan Gustafsson	14	2.54	0.904	7	7	2	804	0	1	1	2
8	29		Oscar Ahlsenfelt	9	2.65	0.902	5	4	0	566	0	0	0	0
9	19		Felix Sandström	13	2.83	0.901	6	4	2	595	0	1	1	0
10	32		Cristopher Nihlstorp	4	3.16	0.875	2	2	0	247	0	0	0	0

Please tell me you mean Soderstrom lol.

[Thebrewcrew]

If Bishop were to sign here, a guy I might have some interest in is Anton Forsberg. It appears CBJ has chosen Korpisalo as their backup and Forsberg appears to be the odd man out. Maybe CBJ would be intersted in any one of the following; Rittich, Poirier, Wotherspoon. I know his numbers in the NHL haven't been great but let's remember the CBJ teams of the past weren't that great, however his stats this year with Cleveland were incredible on a team that missed the playoffs, and he was also the starter for their Calder cup team last season. 

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=15830

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

If Bishop were to sign here, a guy I might have some interest in is Anton Forsberg. It appears CBJ has chosen Korpisalo as their backup and Forsberg appears to be the odd man out. Maybe CBJ would be intersted in any one of the following; Rittich, Poirier, Wotherspoon. I know his numbers in the NHL haven't been great but let's remember the CBJ teams of the past weren't that great, however his stats this year with Cleveland were incredible on a team that missed the playoffs, and he was also the starter for their Calder cup team last season. 

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=15830

 

Totally agree.   Although I'm not fixated on Bishop, to be honest.   Do you mean for free?  Or as a trade?

 

Anton has struggled to make the jump, on the other hand CBJ is a pretty harsh team to make that jump with.   

 

I still maintain that I wish the Flames had gotten four guys like this.  Two in the NHL, two in the AHL.  Develop all 4 until you discover your Matt Murray.    Swap out prospects who aren't getting it done with other prospects if necessary.

 

I know that just scares the pants off everyone here.  And I get it.   But the 4-0 playoff loss with veteran goalies hasn't been a bowl of cherries either.

[rocketdoctor]

I'm with sticking with what we have got for next season so young tenders get more pro experience in AHL/ECHL

 

So to me there is no benfit in gambloing 6M a year for Bishop.

 

another good article suggesting Pengies should be our target  http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2017/05/poached-from-pittsburgh-why-its.html