Goaltending

[phoenix66]

As i said, and have said multiple times, yes the Flames need to improve play in their own zone there is no question about that. The point was though is let's stop acting like this is the worst defensive team in the league when there is ZERO stats to back up that up. Every team in the league gives up chances so if you goal is for the Flames to play a type of game that gives up zero chances well, good luck because it isn't happening. The Flames need to do a better job of limiting chances yes but mainly on the PK and not as much 5 on 5.

My other point is trying to use the "lack of D" as an argument as to why goaltending was bad is also wrong IMO. There were multiple teams, probably around 6 or 7 team, that gave up more quantity and quality of scoring chances this year than the Flames. Yet all of them had better goal tending numbers and in most cases not just by a little either. I'll repeat again for emphasis, yes the D needs to play better and the Flames have issues to fix in their own zone but that is no excuse for how poor the goaltending was this year. That is the point I am trying to make and its the theme I find very dissapointing in this thread. I get people don't want to only upgrade goaltending and not forget about how the Flames play in their own zone, but let's also not lose sight of the fact that goaltending is by far and away the biggest need on this club and they would have had much better results had they had better goaltending.

When you read stuff like Reimer wouldn't play as well here, or that Bishop would go from being a Vezina calibre goalie to a below average starter because the Flames are so bad at D, it's gets really silly. They are not that bad.

I don't think anybody is saying our goaltending was great this year and pinning it all on D

Hiller sacked bad this year..all 3 ducked the first month.

Ramo after his return gave us as good a goaltending run as you can get however.

Where the D comes in is the quality of shots they were facing.Gio even.said as much in his interview yesterday.

What we are saying is bringing in this long awaited stud goalie won't make us instant contenders and will likely end up as good as Ramo which was starter quality after his return from demototion

[cross16]

What we are saying is bringing in this long awaited stud goalie won't make us instant contenders and will likely end up as good as Ramo which was starter quality after his return from demototion

 

Assuming you mean cup contenders then yes I agree that short of brining in Price there isn't a goalie out there that I think makes this team an instant cup contender. However, I think you can certainly bring in a goalie as good or even better than Ramo. Even in his peak Ramo was playing at a decent, but not great, starter level. Someone like Bishop, Vasilvesky etc would be better than that IMO.

 

I think the Flames are instant playoff contenders with better goaltending that is my only point. Cup contenders, no they need to improved their play in their own zone and get much better up front for that, but they are instant playoff contenders with league avg, or event slightly below leave avg, goatlending IMO. That's my point. 

[robrob1974]

For me, I am glad (not glad) that the goaltending hasn't masked a lot of the issues this team has. I don't want to be Montreal where you get in with the best goalie and then nose dive when he isn't there.

I don't agree, and we can agree to disagree, that there doesn't need to be a ton of improvement as optics in my eye look different when I see the product on the ice and think we need massive improvement. Part of that is being young and another part is not having the roster completed to BT's vision.

Albeit, I wonder if a lot of those stats may have changed for the better when the games meant less when we were out of it and playing backups?

When games mattered this team didn't looked quite fragile and when the playoffs became impossible, the team changed, like a weight was lifted off their shoulders.

[DirtyDeeds]

So based on BT's presser yesterday,Backstrom and Hiller have both already been told they won't be back(no shock there), Ramo however was not told that. His comments sounded more in his own decision "we will see closet to then what direction management is leaning"

He did reiterate strongly that goaltending is a priority, but obviously at this point has not ruled out Ramo returning.

Interesting too that he did not give Hartley a vote of confidence, saying "All areas will need to be evaluated and we will be doing that"

He talked for a long time but didn't say much that we did not already know, or haven't already figured out anyway.

[MAC331]

For me, I am glad (not glad) that the goaltending hasn't masked a lot of the issues this team has. I don't want to be Montreal where you get in with the best goalie and then nose dive when he isn't there.

I don't agree, and we can agree to disagree, that there doesn't need to be a ton of improvement as optics in my eye look different when I see the product on the ice and think we need massive improvement. Part of that is being young and another part is not having the roster completed to BT's vision.

Albeit, I wonder if a lot of those stats may have changed for the better when the games meant less when we were out of it and playing backups?

When games mattered this team didn't looked quite fragile and when the playoffs became impossible, the team changed, like a weight was lifted off their shoulders.

Goaltending weakness was glaring but there are a number of areas requiring better players or player efforts. There will be no guarantee that whoever we get provides much better goaltending (we hope they do) but the entire team has to continue to improve.

[cross16]

Albeit, I wonder if a lot of those stats may have changed for the better when the games meant less when we were out of it and playing backups?

 

 

There was no change in the numbers. IN terms of scoring chances against and quality scoring chances against, the Flames played to their seasons averages over the last month of the season. Actually they gave up slightly more but not even by a full scoring chance against. 

[DirtyDeeds]

The only time you can take the performance of the Flames as decent and meaningful, is when Ramo put his string together and got us back in a playoff contention(playoff spot for a brief moment). I don't think that pace was sustainable anyway. The injury to Ramo put a stop to any thoughts of continuing any drive to the end of the season for playoffs.

 

Sure Ortio showed a few good games but Hiller and Ortio both allowed the season to slip away until our games were no longer meaningful.

 

We are not trying to be cup contenders next season. We still need decent goaltending to be at least a playoff contender.

 

What is so wrong with getting better than just average goaltending? Do some of you not want to be able to go deeper into playoffs. Better than average goaltending gives you that chance to go deeper.

 

None of our prospects are ready to give us better than average starter goaltending and may never develop to that. If you listen to JJ  our development of goaltenders will never give us a quality goaltender because we are so poor at it.

[phoenix66]

He talked for a long time but didn't say much that we did not already know, or haven't already figured out anyway.

 

 

there were some pretty telling things for me in there , as i said earlier, the biggest things I read from that :

1) Ramo and Ortio are both still in the discussion for next year 

2)As I already believed, hes aware that expansion casualties may not be available right away 

3) Hartley's job is not safe

 

the biggest reason the 3- headed monster happened last year , is im sure the plan was to have a camp battle , and the odd man out gets moved. problem was all 3 were awful and nobody wanted them .. Hartley obviously had more faith in Hiller bouncing back and we all know how it played from there.

 

I fully expect another 3 way camp battle now, who they pick up will determine who's on the hotseat

[MAC331]

The only time you can take the performance of the Flames as decent and meaningful, is when Ramo put his string together and got us back in a playoff contention(playoff spot for a brief moment). I don't think that pace was sustainable anyway. The injury to Ramo put a stop to any thoughts of continuing any drive to the end of the season for playoffs.

 

Sure Ortio showed a few good games but Hiller and Ortio both allowed the season to slip away until our games were no longer meaningful.

 

We are not trying to be cup contenders next season. We still need decent goaltending to be at least a playoff contender.

 

What is so wrong with getting better than just average goaltending? Do some of you not want to be able to go deeper into playoffs. Better than average goaltending gives you that chance to go deeper.

 

None of our prospects are ready to give us better than average starter goaltending and may never develop to that. If you listen to JJ  our development of goaltenders will never give us a quality goaltender because we are so poor at it.

The reality of goaltenders is you just don't know what you have until they gain the NHL experience. Carey Price was almost given up on in Montreal now he is deemed the best in the NHL.

[tmac70]

Should he trade all 5 you mentioned this offseason ?

Nope but I would move two of them.

[robrob1974]

The reality of goaltenders is you just don't know what you have until they gain the NHL experience. Carey Price was almost given up on in Montreal now he is deemed the best in the NHL.

I don't think he was almost given up on in Montreal. They remained loyal to him as a young goalie and didn't want to trade him, hence trading Halak instead. I think it was the fans that gave up on him because of Halak's miracle run that one year. But they traded him instead. I think they knew Price was too young and still developing. Too good for the AHL but not ready for the responsibility as an NHL starter.

I loved how he was so passionate about losses and cried after some of them. He's a gamer. Emotions get the best of us who are passionate.

[MAC331]

there were some pretty telling things for me in there , as i said earlier, the biggest things I read from that :

1) Ramo and Ortio are both still in the discussion for next year 

2)As I already believed, hes aware that expansion casualties may not be available right away 

3) Hartley's job is not safe

 

the biggest reason the 3- headed monster happened last year , is im sure the plan was to have a camp battle , and the odd man out gets moved. problem was all 3 were awful and nobody wanted them .. Hartley obviously had more faith in Hiller bouncing back and we all know how it played from there.

 

I fully expect another 3 way camp battle now, who they pick up will determine who's on the hotseat

What is the purpose of saying anything about Ramo until you see how he recovers from his injury. The fact is he will be a UFA and he only remains an option if they don't get someone they deem better. I think they eventually move on from Ramo.

[darth_henning]

If Ramo was healthy, I'd be uncomfortable, but willing to take a shot on him next year. He improved after a rough start and was consistently...average. 

 

 

But with a major injury like that, even if he is playing, we don't know if he'll be able to play to that level. He's not going to get better, he may be the same, but he could be worse. Even if he is "healed". ACL injuries are hard to rehab. Some people can come back from them, many cant. 

 

Ortio as backup is risky already. I don't want that risk on the starter. 

[jjgallow]

Assuming you mean cup contenders then yes I agree that short of brining in Price there isn't a goalie out there that I think makes this team an instant cup contender. However, I think you can certainly bring in a goalie as good or even better than Ramo. Even in his peak Ramo was playing at a decent, but not great, starter level. Someone like Bishop, Vasilvesky etc would be better than that IMO.

 

I think the Flames are instant playoff contenders with better goaltending that is my only point. Cup contenders, no they need to improved their play in their own zone and get much better up front for that, but they are instant playoff contenders with league avg, or event slightly below leave avg, goatlending IMO. That's my point. 

 

I appreciate the general cautious tone here, generally, but still a couple comments:

 

• Not sure "playoff contenders" is a thing...."contender" already has a well established association...
• There will be Nothing instant about next year.

[jjgallow]

None of our prospects are ready to give us better than average starter goaltending and may never develop to that. If you listen to JJ  our development of goaltenders will never give us a quality goaltender because we are so poor at it.

 

I won't entirely deny that accusation...

 

The biggest hole in my arguement for developing a starter....has nothing to do with risk, or our need to fill what appears to be an immediate need at this point in time.

 

The biggest hole in my arguement, is the one nobody's really challenged me on.   The Flames are NOT good at developing goaltenders.  So.....yeah.  If we can't figure that out, then my arguement goes right out the window no matter how patient we are or no matter how many prospects we have.   Somebody smarter than us will have to make that self-assessment.   And if it's decided that we're just not cut out for developing goalies, then yeah, bring someone in.  But hopefully, someone young.  Because the whole team and system gets built around them.

 

IMHO, the organization needs to make some changes to their goaltender development program.  Very likely staffing changes at the coaching and scouting level.   The number of injuries is getting hard to ignore as well.

[kehatch]

I won't entirely deny that accusation...

The biggest hole in my arguement for developing a starter....has nothing to do with risk, or our need to fill what appears to be an immediate need at this point in time.

The biggest hole in my arguement, is the one nobody's really challenged me on. The Flames are NOT good at developing goaltenders. So.....yeah. If we can't figure that out, then my arguement goes right out the window no matter how patient we are or no matter how many prospects we have. Somebody smarter than us will have to make that self-assessment. And if it's decided that we're just not cut out for developing goalies, then yeah, bring someone in. But hopefully, someone young. Because the whole team and system gets built around them.

IMHO, the organization needs to make some changes to their goaltender development program. Very likely staffing changes at the coaching and scouting level. The number of injuries is getting hard to ignore as well.

The biggest hole in your argument is the path you are suggesting would be a terrible pathway to develop goalies. It would be a self fulfilling prophesy.

I am not suggesting that the Flames have a great history of goaltending development. Though given the turnover at just about every position I am not sure how relevant that is. But you can't throw a bunch of young guys into the NHL over their head and expect them to develop correctly.

[MAC331]

If Ramo was healthy, I'd be uncomfortable, but willing to take a shot on him next year. He improved after a rough start and was consistently...average. 

 

 

But with a major injury like that, even if he is playing, we don't know if he'll be able to play to that level. He's not going to get better, he may be the same, but he could be worse. Even if he is "healed". ACL injuries are hard to rehab. Some people can come back from them, many cant. 

 

Ortio as backup is risky already. I don't want that risk on the starter. 

I'm not sure what Ortio has to do to empress you people. I suggest you are being tunnel focused on the Flames and look around the league. Give the guy a chance for F sakes.

[travel_dude]

I won't entirely deny that accusation...

 

The biggest hole in my arguement for developing a starter....has nothing to do with risk, or our need to fill what appears to be an immediate need at this point in time.

 

The biggest hole in my arguement, is the one nobody's really challenged me on.   The Flames are NOT good at developing goaltenders.  So.....yeah.  If we can't figure that out, then my arguement goes right out the window no matter how patient we are or no matter how many prospects we have.   Somebody smarter than us will have to make that self-assessment.   And if it's decided that we're just not cut out for developing goalies, then yeah, bring someone in.  But hopefully, someone young.  Because the whole team and system gets built around them.

 

IMHO, the organization needs to make some changes to their goaltender development program.  Very likely staffing changes at the coaching and scouting level.   The number of injuries is getting hard to ignore as well.

 

Gillies was injured in his 2nd last season in the NCAA.  There was no way you could have anticipated that during the draft.  He seemed to be over it last year in the NCAA.  It cropped up again.  Maybe they should have shut him down prior to the season in Stockton, but that wouldn't be much different than playing 7 games.

 

Other than Ortio and Irving, who are the goalies that weren't developed properly?  In recent years, that is.  You can look back to MAF, but recently the only ones are Ortio and Irving.  Brossoit was draft, but offered in a trade.  He still does not look NHL ready.

Different management group.

 

As far as development goes, the only one we have been developing recently is Ortio.  An emergency callup last season.  This year he could not gain the confidence of the coach to get the job before Hiller or Ramo were injured.  How does that reflect badly on goalie development?  

 

I like what I have seen of Ortio in the end of the season, but you have to be careful with meaningless games, the same you should with a player like Colborne scoring 9 goals after the Flames were effectively eliminated.   

[darth_henning]

I'm not sure Ortio has to do to empress you people. I suggest you being tunnel focused on the Flames and look around the league. Give the guy a chance for F sakes.

 

I've said several times in this very thread that I think, based on how he looked since his recent call-up, that Ortio has the potential to be good enough for a 1A/1B Tandem next year if he can maintain consistency, and may be able to challenge for a starter roll. 

 

The problem is the word "MAY". He did well this season, no question. But can he do that over a full season where he's not getting a series of consecutive starts? We simply don't know. Definitely we give him the chance, but he's an unknown and therefore a risk sice we don't know what the result will be. 

 

We can't have two unknowns in goal unless we want a repeat of this year. 

[conundrumed]

I think we're destined for unknowns in net next year regardless.

Adding a vet doesn't make it known on this team.

Pay the bejesus out of a Bishop and I'll relent that that is actually a lot of what we need until Gillies.

But Ward, Reimer, and other FA goalies will need proof on this squad, not a guaranteed "solved".

I'm a little worried about our trading relationship to PhxArizona myself.

I want zero from them in goaltending, even for Wideman.

No easy answers.

[StarkRaving]

This may sound like a bit of a stretch, but I think Dallas' playoff run this year could impact our goaltending situation next year.  If they manage to get to the conference finals, we get their first draft pick.  That pick would be a useful tool in prying a starter away from another team. 

 

For the record, I'm not thrilled with any of the UFA/RFA goalies who'll be available this summer.  (I'm semi-interested in Frederik Andersen and Calvin Pickard, but that's it) 

 

Also for the record, Joni Ortio is the only goalie from last year's group that I would offer a contract to this year.  I'd expect to pay him backup money and play him backup minutes.

[darth_henning]

This may sound like a bit of a stretch, but I think Dallas' playoff run this year could impact our goaltending situation next year.  If they manage to get to the conference finals, we get their first draft pick.  That pick would be a useful tool in prying a starter away from another team. 

 

For the record, I'm not thrilled with any of the UFA/RFA goalies who'll be available this summer.  (I'm semi-interested in Frederik Andersen and Calvin Pickard, but that's it) 

 

Also for the record, Joni Ortio is the only goalie from last year's group that I would offer a contract to this year.  I'd expect to pay him backup money and play him backup minutes.

 

Interesting thought. Might be useful for a goalie, but also should we not manage to move up in the draft, I would almost be more inclined to package it with our 1st to see if we could move into the top 3 to get that RW we need. 

 

Andersen would be the most interesting for me of the ones I'm aware of. Not sure what his cost would be off the top of my head. 

 

Agreed on Ortio in terms of contract. Though I wouldn't assume backup minutes. I would say split the time between him and whoever we bring in, see if Ortio is up to tandem or not. 

[cross16]

I agree that if Dallas gets into the first round that pick becomes a great bargaining chip for a goalie. While it would be great to move up I don't think its going to happen and not for just that pick either. I think if you want to move up in this draft the price is going to be extremely high and probably not worth it. 

 

I would be all over using that extra first as trade bait for a goalie. 

[StarkRaving]

Interesting thought. Might be useful for a goalie, but also should we not manage to move up in the draft, I would almost be more inclined to package it with our 1st to see if we could move into the top 3 to get that RW we need. 

 

Andersen would be the most interesting for me of the ones I'm aware of. Not sure what his cost would be off the top of my head. 

 

Agreed on Ortio in terms of contract. Though I wouldn't assume backup minutes. I would say split the time between him and whoever we bring in, see if Ortio is up to tandem or not. 

Andersen will be an RFA, so if the Flames signed him to an offer sheet it'd probably cost a 1st and a 3rd.   (Assuming a salary between $3 - $5M)  There's a good explanation of the rules here -> http://www.silversevensens.com/2015/6/25/8773751/nhl-offer-sheet-explained-rules-guide

 

I'm not in favour of signing anyone to an offer sheet, as I believe it creates a bidding war and someone will always end up over-paying.  (Also, the compensation would have to be our first round draft pick, not Dallas')  However, the compensation guidelines could serve as a conversation starter.

[darth_henning]

Definitely no to offer-sheeting him. We need those picks more than we need to offer-sheet. 

 

If they'd consider a trade of rights (say Andersen's for Colborne's) then I'm VERY interested. 

 

Actually.....that's not a bad idea. Wonder if they'd take that deal....