Goaltending

[cross16]

JJ your timeline with Jones is off. The Kings signed him in the summer of 2008 after he passed through the draft. He went undrafted in the 08 draft, Kings brought him to camp and didn't let him go back to the Hitmen without an entry level contract.

Flames only shot at him was to bring him in after that draft and it's too bad they didn't because you would think they would have the inside track. But this was all in the summer of 08 when Keetley and Lalande were in the fold. Jones was not a 20 year old free agent.

[Krule]

The Jets are loaded at the goalie position for sure. They have a really strong group of prospects overall. Hellebuyck would be the most NHL ready, but would the Jets be willing to part with a young netminder knowing they have an aging Pavelac on their hands? It would be a nice move if the Flames could swing a deal for one of the Jets prospects, it will definitely cost us a high draft pick and prospect/roster player.

 

How about Colbourne or Ferland (not my choice but he is more or less a hometown boy), a prospect and one of our 2 round picks? Would that be a good starting point or final offer for Hutchinson or Hellebuyck (I'd prefer him)? 

[cross16]

How about Colbourne or Ferland (not my choice but he is more or less a hometown boy), a prospect and one of our 2 round picks? Would that be a good starting point or final offer for Hutchinson or Hellebuyck (I'd prefer him)? 

 

I think thats a big overpayment on Hutchinson, even a 2nd rounder straight up is IMO a big overpayment. Hutchison is a decent backup but I don't see him as more than that and I don't thin you should give up 2nd round picks for non-starters. 

 

I'll refer to FlyerFan more on the trade value of Hellebuyck. I feel that's porbably not enough to get it done becuaes I don't see why the Jets would move Hellebuyck unless you really overpay. 

[Carty]

Ortio gets the start tonight...

 

[darth_henning]

Hope this means that Ortio gets mot of the remaining starts. Backstrom gets 2-4. Hiller sits in the press box..

[The_People1]

Is there any goalie from the KHL/Europe we can just sign for free without trading anyone?

[jjgallow]

JJ your timeline with Jones is off. The Kings signed him in the summer of 2008 after he passed through the draft. He went undrafted in the 08 draft, Kings brought him to camp and didn't let him go back to the Hitmen without an entry level contract.

Flames only shot at him was to bring him in after that draft and it's too bad they didn't because you would think they would have the inside track. But this was all in the summer of 08 when Keetley and Lalande were in the fold. Jones was not a 20 year old free agent.

 

Oh!

 

ummm...

 

Well then,   I completely agree with you, Karlsson had nothing to do with it lol.

 

But I'll have you know, accurate factual information is considered cheating, in my books, Cross...

[DirtyDeeds]

Is there any goalie from the KHL/Europe we can just sign for free without trading anyone?

Didn't we already have the 2 best goaltenders outside of the NHL?

[MAC331]

I think thats a big overpayment on Hutchinson, even a 2nd rounder straight up is IMO a big overpayment. Hutchison is a decent backup but I don't see him as more than that and I don't thin you should give up 2nd round picks for non-starters. 

 

I'll refer to FlyerFan more on the trade value of Hellebuyck. I feel that's porbably not enough to get it done becuaes I don't see why the Jets would move Hellebuyck unless you really overpay. 

Let's say BT presses for Hellebuyck would two 2nd round picks do the trick or are we talking about also adding a roster or prospect to the deal ?

[JTech780]

Let's say BT presses for Hellebuyck would two 2nd round picks do the trick or are we talking about also adding a roster or prospect to the deal ?

Ask yourself how much it would take for you to give up Gillies and add to that and that is what Hellebuyck's trade value is.

Same applies to Murray out of Pittsburgh.

[cross16]

Let's say BT presses for Hellebuyck would two 2nd round picks do the trick or are we talking about also adding a roster or prospect to the deal ?

 

No I don't think you are close. I don't even see a reason why the jets would move Helleybuyck at all, let alone for a copule draft picks. I don't think Helleybuyck or Murray are going anywhere. 

 

Read today that Toronto wanted Murray in the Kessell deal and were told no. 

[JTech780]

No I don't think you are close. I don't even see a reason why the jets would move Helleybuyck at all, let alone for a copule draft picks. I don't think Helleybuyck or Murray are going anywhere.

Read today that Toronto wanted Murray in the Kessell deal and were told no.

I agree. Most of us one here would deem Gillies as untouchable, Hellebuyck and Murray are ahead of Gillies as far as development wise and probably ceiling wise. So why would they trade them.

Don't get me wrong I would love to have either as I see them along with Gibson and Mrazek as the next generation of great goaltenders.

Jared Coreau is an interesting name that I have heard others mention, but he might become a very important player for Detroit if they are able to move Howard.

I don't know if there really is that back up or 3rd stringer that is both ready to break out and be a starter and available.

[cross16]

I don't know if there really is that back up or 3rd stringer that is both ready to break out and be a starter and available.

 

I find every 3 or 4 years there seems to be a big goalie cycle and a bunch that have developed as backups are ready to be starters and they get traded and unforutnatley for the Flames I think that was last summer. 

 

Yes there are the Vasilevsky, Subbans, Murray's of the world but when you really look it none of them makes sense to trade. Almost all of them are still under contract so their teams can still control them and see what they have for another year. Just arn't many RFA options or backups that are pushing their case right now. 

[MAC331]

I find every 3 or 4 years there seems to be a big goalie cycle and a bunch that have developed as backups are ready to be starters and they get traded and unforutnatley for the Flames I think that was last summer. 

 

Yes there are the Vasilevsky, Subbans, Murray's of the world but when you really look it none of them makes sense to trade. Almost all of them are still under contract so their teams can still control them and see what they have for another year. Just arn't many RFA options or backups that are pushing their case right now. 

You could be right regarding all these potentials with other teams. What I see BT doing is trying to fill in the gaps within our pipelines for positions. Ortio is making a strong case for himself for one of the goalie spots and if Gilles is 2 years away yet we need another good one.

[kehatch]

Ortio is making a case for a contract.  Barring a major derailment I think you can pencil him in as one of the two spots come next season.  That gives you one goalie that will have around 40-games of NHL experience. 

 

The question now becomes who is number 2.  I don't think the Flames will (or should) look at a rookie with a limited number of games played.  Not to tandem with an inexperienced (and historically inconsistent) goalie like Ortio.  I appreciate the appeal of two bright and shiny rookies.  But it is impractical and I can’t think of an example of any NHL team doing that.

 

I also don’t want the Flames to invest in a long term and older veteran.  I think most will agree that doesn’t fit well with where we are in the rebuild. 

 

That limits your search to young goalies with at least some NHL experience or veteran goalies with shorter contracts.  I would prefer a young goalie like Anderson or Kuemper.  They have enough experience to give you confidence in net but they are young enough to factor into your long term plans.  But if you can’t get someone like that I don’t mind looking at someone like Varlamov.  He is (probably) cheap to acquire, relatively young, and his contract is short enough he isn’t blocking your prospects. 

 

Ramo is your fallback plan in my opinion.  You are probably talking about 4.5 million X 2 to sign him to an extension.  I prefer Varlamov at 5.9 X 3 to that, especially given the uncertainty around Ramo following his injury. 

[MAC331]

 

Ortio is making a case for a contract.  Barring a major derailment I think you can pencil him in as one of the two spots come next season.  That gives you one goalie that will have around 40-games of NHL experience. 

 

 

The question now becomes who is number 2.  I don't think the Flames will (or should) look at a rookie with a limited number of games played.  Not to tandem with an inexperienced (and historically inconsistent) goalie like Ortio.  I appreciate the appeal of two bright and shiny rookies.  But it is impractical and I can’t think of an example of any NHL team doing that.

 

 

I also don’t want the Flames to invest in a long term and older veteran.  I think most will agree that doesn’t fit well with where we are in the rebuild. 

 

 

That limits your search to young goalies with at least some NHL experience or veteran goalies with shorter contracts.  I would prefer a young goalie like Anderson or Kuemper.  They have enough experience to give you confidence in net but they are young enough to factor into your long term plans.  But if you can’t get someone like that I don’t mind looking at someone like Varlamov.  He is (probably) cheap to acquire, relatively young, and his contract is short enough he isn’t blocking your prospects. 

 

 

Ramo is your fallback plan in my opinion.  You are probably talking about 4.5 million X 2 to sign him to an extension.  I prefer Varlamov at 5.9 X 3 to that, especially given the uncertainty around Ramo following his injury. 

 

I wouldn't limited myself however I believe the assessment of the player has to be a positive outlook. There have been plenty of young tandems throughout periods of hockey where one comes out the other end very well. Fuhr and Moog come to mind and I'm sure there are others. I don't think you can take the approach that Gilles will rise to assume the position, to many things can go wrong. Should one or both goalies rise to the occasion and excel, as a team you will be in good shape.

[robrob1974]

You could be right regarding all these potentials with other teams. What I see BT doing is trying to fill in the gaps within our pipelines for positions. Ortio is making a strong case for himself for one of the goalie spots and if Gilles is 2 years away yet we need another good one.

I agree and i think it is something Feaster touched on and started to do. Only BT is way more savvy in his deals, and signings seem to be good-ish. He did with Hiller and perhaps best he did a 2 year deal because if he made a 1-year, if he felt good about last year, he may have given Hiller an extra 2 years or so.

I say he signs a goalie to another 2-3 years to wait and see what we have in Gillies and Macdonald.

With the players he signed his first year, maybe he would've done two years in Raymond's case.

That is if he had hindsight

[JTech780]

Ortio is making a case for a contract. Barring a major derailment I think you can pencil him in as one of the two spots come next season. That gives you one goalie that will have around 40-games of NHL experience.

The question now becomes who is number 2. I don't think the Flames will (or should) look at a rookie with a limited number of games played. Not to tandem with an inexperienced (and historically inconsistent) goalie like Ortio. I appreciate the appeal of two bright and shiny rookies. But it is impractical and I can’t think of an example of any NHL team doing that.

I also don’t want the Flames to invest in a long term and older veteran. I think most will agree that doesn’t fit well with where we are in the rebuild.

That limits your search to young goalies with at least some NHL experience or veteran goalies with shorter contracts. I would prefer a young goalie like Anderson or Kuemper. They have enough experience to give you confidence in net but they are young enough to factor into your long term plans. But if you can’t get someone like that I don’t mind looking at someone like Varlamov. He is (probably) cheap to acquire, relatively young, and his contract is short enough he isn’t blocking your prospects.

Ramo is your fallback plan in my opinion. You are probably talking about 4.5 million X 2 to sign him to an extension. I prefer Varlamov at 5.9 X 3 to that, especially given the uncertainty around Ramo following his injury.

The more I look at it Varlamov and Andersen are really the only two options available as far as proven starters.

The only issue I see with Andersen is that he might want a long term contract and I am not sure I want to go too much longer than a 3 year contract with him.

Kuemper is really interesting. I am just not sure how much of load he can handle. He's less proven than the other 2. I could see him being a 1b/1a, but I don't think he is a guy that can play 50+ games.

[MAC331]

I agree and i think it is something Feaster touched on and started to do. Only BT is way more savvy in his deals, and signings seem to be good-ish. He did with Hiller and perhaps best he did a 2 year deal because if he made a 1-year, if he felt good about last year, he may have given Hiller an extra 2 years or so.

I say he signs a goalie to another 2-3 years to wait and see what we have in Gillies and Macdonald.

With the players he signed his first year, maybe he would've done two years in Raymond's case.

That is if he had hindsight

I firmly believe they had a 3 year plan and a number of holes when they signed players like Engelland, Raymond, Hiller etc.. I thought (by my own admission) that Gaudreau would likely start in the AHL for a year. LOL

Last year made a few player's services rather redundant fast. To BT's credit it is better to plan for the worst and hope for the best. Also they wanted some built in stability in order to allow the young players a less pressured environment to develop in.

I don't think there is a huge reason to panic however it is time to shed Wideman, Stajan and Raymond if at all possible.

[FlamesLogic]

These are the teams and the goalies that are under contract next year. For RFA's that are likely to be resigned I included them as well.

 

Team Goalie A Goalie B Pittsburgh Penguins fluery murray Tampa Bay Lightning bishop vasilevskiy Detroit Red Wings howard Mrazek RFA St. Louis Blues Jake Allen Elliot Los Angeles Kings Quick   Vancouver Canucks Miller Markstrom New York Rangers Lundqvist Hellberg Chicago Blackhawks Crawford Darling San Jose Sharks Jones   Washington Capitals Holtby Grubauer Toronto Maple Leafs Bernier Sparks RFA Minnesota Wild Dubnyk Kuemper RFA Montreal Canadiens Price Condon Boston Bruins Rask   Philadelphia Flyers Mason Neuvirth Dallas Stars Lehtonen Niemi Calgary Flames   Ortio RFA Edmonton Oilers Talbot Brossoit Columbus Blue Jackets Bobrovsky McElhinney Florida Panthers Luongo   New York Islanders Halak Greiss Ottawa Senators Anderson Hammond Anaheim Ducks   Gibson Colorado Avalanche Varlamov Berra New Jersey Devils Schneider Kinkaid Nashville Predators Rinne   Buffalo Sabres Lehner   Carolina Hurricanes Eddie Lack Arizona Coyotes Mike Smith langhamer Winnipeg Jets Pavelec Hutchinson RFA

 

There are 9 NHL jobs available next year (including Calgary). 

 

Of these 4 have a strong/expensive starter and as such are looking for a cheaper/weaker backup type if they dont promote from within.

 

As such there is only 4 other jobs competing with Calgary for a UFA goalie.
Backup for Luongo in Flordia
Starter in Calgary
Tandem with Gibson in Anaheim
Tandem/Backup for Lehner in Buffalo
Starter/Tandem in Carolina

 

Only Carolina and Calgary can arguably say that they are looking for a goalie to handle more than 40 games a year. 

 

As such why not simply see what can of value we can derive from the likes of Cam Ward, Reimer, Antti Raanta, Ramo, Chad Johnson?

We are likely one of the few teams willing to pay more than 3M to a goalie and we can see which player is able to bid himself for that job. 

I dont see any of these guys as being supremely better than the other to the point where we need to get into a bidding war for their services. 

Ramo and his injury is probably better off going to a place like Florida or Buffalo where he doesnt need to perform day 1. 

Maybe this is the situation we need to force Reimer into a one or two year prove it contract to see if he can get bigger UFA dollars when the market is better. 

Raanta is potentially a Cam Talbot quality goalie for free and may very well work for 3M and provide a more experienced lead goalie for Ortio to work behind.
 

The point is we have leverage due to playing opportunity and willingness to pay and we should maximize that to help save our cap dollars.

[MAC331]

These are the teams and the goalies that are under contract next year. For RFA's that are likely to be resigned I included them as well.

 

Team Goalie A Goalie B Pittsburgh Penguins fluery murray Tampa Bay Lightning bishop vasilevskiy Detroit Red Wings howard Mrazek RFA St. Louis Blues Jake Allen Elliot Los Angeles Kings Quick   Vancouver Canucks Miller Markstrom New York Rangers Lundqvist Hellberg Chicago Blackhawks Crawford Darling San Jose Sharks Jones   Washington Capitals Holtby Grubauer Toronto Maple Leafs Bernier Sparks RFA Minnesota Wild Dubnyk Kuemper RFA Montreal Canadiens Price Condon Boston Bruins Rask   Philadelphia Flyers Mason Neuvirth Dallas Stars Lehtonen Niemi Calgary Flames   Ortio RFA Edmonton Oilers Talbot Brossoit Columbus Blue Jackets Bobrovsky McElhinney Florida Panthers Luongo   New York Islanders Halak Greiss Ottawa Senators Anderson Hammond Anaheim Ducks   Gibson Colorado Avalanche Varlamov Berra New Jersey Devils Schneider Kinkaid Nashville Predators Rinne   Buffalo Sabres Lehner   Carolina Hurricanes Eddie Lack Arizona Coyotes Mike Smith langhamer Winnipeg Jets Pavelec Hutchinson RFA

 

There are 9 NHL jobs available next year (including Calgary). 

 

Of these 4 have a strong/expensive starter and as such are looking for a cheaper/weaker backup type if they dont promote from within.

 

As such there is only 4 other jobs competing with Calgary for a UFA goalie.

Backup for Luongo in Flordia

Starter in Calgary

Tandem with Gibson in Anaheim

Tandem/Backup for Lehner in Buffalo

Starter/Tandem in Carolina

 

Only Carolina and Calgary can arguably say that they are looking for a goalie to handle more than 40 games a year. 

 

As such why not simply see what can of value we can derive from the likes of Cam Ward, Reimer, Antti Raanta, Ramo, Chad Johnson?

We are likely one of the few teams willing to pay more than 3M to a goalie and we can see which player is able to bid himself for that job. 

I dont see any of these guys as being supremely better than the other to the point where we need to get into a bidding war for their services. 

Ramo and his injury is probably better off going to a place like Florida or Buffalo where he doesnt need to perform day 1. 

Maybe this is the situation we need to force Reimer into a one or two year prove it contract to see if he can get bigger UFA dollars when the market is better. 

Raanta is potentially a Cam Talbot quality goalie for free and may very well work for 3M and provide a more experienced lead goalie for Ortio to work behind.

 

The point is we have leverage due to playing opportunity and willingness to pay and we should maximize that to help save our cap dollars.

I agree with some of your assessment but not all. Most of the available UFA are coming off back up duty and are hard to say if they could handle 40+ games. Should we go these route we likely need two similar goalies as a tandem. Reimer has the biggest body of work but I don't want to get into 3.5M for him for 3 years. I would rather try Raanta or Enroth both have played behind top goaltenders and should know what it takes to succeed. Either of these at 2.5M for 2 or 3 years would work for me along with Ortio.

[kehatch]

The more I look at it Varlamov and Andersen are really the only two options available as far as proven starters.

The only issue I see with Andersen is that he might want a long term contract and I am not sure I want to go too much longer than a 3 year contract with him.

Kuemper is really interesting. I am just not sure how much of load he can handle. He's less proven than the other 2. I could see him being a 1b/1a, but I don't think he is a guy that can play 50+ games.

 

The thing about Kuemper is the price tag.  Anderson is expensive to acquire and Varlamov comes with a big cap hit.  If you can get Kuemper for decent value and sign him to a two year deal with a reasonable cap hit I don't mind him.  He has been well coached and outside of last season he has consistently put up pretty impressive numbers.  I agree he hasn't shown he can carry a workload, but at least he has 100 or so NHL games so you know he can play at this level.  

 

I definitely would be more comfortable with Anderson.  I just don't see Anaheim trading him in division (if at all) and he will be expensive to get.  

[travel_dude]

The thing about Kuemper is the price tag.  Anderson is expensive to acquire and Varlamov comes with a big cap hit.  If you can get Kuemper for decent value and sign him to a two year deal with a reasonable cap hit I don't mind him.  He has been well coached and outside of last season he has consistently put up pretty impressive numbers.  I agree he hasn't shown he can carry a workload, but at least he has 100 or so NHL games so you know he can play at this level.  

 

I definitely would be more comfortable with Anderson.  I just don't see Anaheim trading him in division (if at all) and he will be expensive to get.  

 

It all comes down to their needs.  They have a high payroll to pay for next season.  They have a lot of really good young D-men.  They have good forwards, but they are starting to get older and are taking up a lot of cap space.  They have a few goalies buried right now, and you have to wonder if they are keeping them or not.  Khudobin and Tokarski.  What I can't get a read on is forward prospects.  Do they need them?  A replacement for Horcoff?  Do they need one?

 

I think there is a deal to be made.  Maybe a vet + prospect + 2nd rounder gets it done?  Or Backlund straight up?  

[Carty]

Varlamov comes with a big cap hit.

 

Varlamov could also be a huge risk...

 

[jjgallow]

Varlamov could also be a huge risk...

 

 

 

Yeah.

 

I agree with all the words and concepts here about acquiring a young goaltender, like Varlamov, etc.

 

But, 27, 28, 29, 30....Are these players Really young in this NHL?

 

Varlamov isn't a starter now.  He was a good starter three years ago, and has been declining ever since.

 

IMHO, we take equal risks with "available" veterans, as we do with "promising" rookies.

 

 

I'll reserve my final judgement for after the season has ended.  I think we have a lot more to learn about Ortio.