Goaltending

[cross16]

Ortio starting again

 

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg  2m2 minutes ago

Ortio first off the ice. He'll get the start tonight vs. San Jose. #Flames

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[MAC331]

 

Ortio starting again

 

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg  2m2 minutes ago

Ortio first off the ice. He'll get the start tonight vs. San Jose. #Flames

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Hey cross I watched Kinkaid yesterday and he was terrible. LOL

[conundrumed]

Just to clarify my earlier posts, they are points of discussion, not resolutions.

The UFA goalie list isn't great, in fact Ward or Reimer are likely the best options.

Do you take a chance on a Hutton or Enroth? Do you take the vet backup in Montoya?

 

I'm kinda thinking we re-sign Ramo and Ortio walks after being offered a 2 way, lest his play here on out forces a one way.

Obviously it's all discussion and not my hardened opinion.

 

If it all blows up, and we bring no one back, we'll need probably a Reimer-Hutton combo, or something like that.

But how much cap are we going to have to do that? That's a pretty easy 6mil.

 

I believe a "wait and see" strategy automatically makes us predatory. It is extremely risky to the point of being outright careless.

But every stone must be turned. Teams will HAVE to talk to us, because we're a threat to any goalie waived at camp.

I wouldn't grab someone's prospect at the camp waive, but I have the threat that you'll lose him for nothing so we can get a deal done.

It's very hardball, but it's a strategy.

 

No point ripping me, because it's not my conclusion or resolution.

Just discussion.

But however this goes, we HAVE to be better as a team and look at our roster and contracts honestly.

We are dying on contracts for next year and I don't see them as movable. It really ties our hands to just get better up and down the roster.

That really impacts how well our goaltending will be able to dig us out, and I believe many of us think goaltending alone can dig us out.

[JA_Boomer]

Haven't posted on here in a long time. Forgive me if I'm repeating other posts, although I did skim through the last 2 pages.

What are the Flames realistic options for addressing the goaltending position this summer?

UFA goalies: Ward and Kudobin are available (as of now). I'm not that interested in Ward as he's 32, I might take a look at Kudobin.

What backup goalies / goalie prospects / or young starting goalies who might be on the block are available?

You've got Subban / Rask, Vashalevski / Bishop, Fleury / Murray. Could we use our 2017 1st round pick + to get someone young in this way?

Gillies still projects high but with not playing much this year you probably want to give him the entire year in the AHL next season. Who knows he's said his hip has been an issue for years so maybe he comes back even better. But can we bank on that and essentially stop-gap a solution for 2 years? Don't think that's a great idea.

Ramo has had good stretches for us but with being out until December you'd have to think he's a last resort option as he'd miss the start of the season, have no training camp and be a complete wild card.

I'm I missing any other options?

[kehatch]

I don't disagree conundrumed. Finding a goalie that makes sense might not happen. In which case you are stuck with trying to sign Ramo to a reasonable deal. But I think the Flames will find someone.

We should no around the draft. I doubt they want to go into July 1st with no goalies under contract.

[The_People1]

This is totally right.kipper came because we needed an emergency fill in due to injuries to Turek and Maclennan. Nobody knew what he could be..Conroy said later this guy showed up and there were double takes everywhere.. The rest is history

 

Actually, Darryl Sutter knew what he could be from his San Jose days and he knew he was available because he was stuck behind Nabokov and Toskala on the depth chart.  Maybe we should be focusing on 3rd goalies stuck behind a really good tandem.

UFA goalies: Ward and Kudobin are available (as of now). I'm not that interested in Ward as he's 32, I might take a look at Kudobin.

Gillies still projects high but with not playing much this year you probably want to give him the entire year in the AHL next season. Who knows he's said his hip has been an issue for years so maybe he comes back even better. But can we bank on that and essentially stop-gap a solution for 2 years? Don't think that's a great idea.

 

I think a stop gap is what we should consider mostly because there's no young future #1 goalie out there available.  No one is giving that up without demanding an arm and a leg.  So, if we really believe Gillies is the savior, then go after a stop gap.  I actually think Ward would fit this description.  He brings Cup experience and would steady the goaltending position on a 2 or 3 year deal. 

 

Ward is 32.  I'm okay signing him until 35.  In case Gillies isn't the savior, Mason Macdonald is 3-years away from NHL ready.  So the timing would work.

[kehatch]

I don't understand why some think you can't get a starter in trade or in free agency.  Some of the top goalies right now that were acquired via trade or free agency (most cheap): 

• Greiss (Free Agent)
• Elliot (Free Agent)
• Bishop (Trade: Conacher and a 4)
• Neuvirth (Free Agent)
• Luongo (Trade: Markstrom, Matthias)
• Schneider (Trade: 9 overall)
• Rask (Trade: Raycroft)
• Talbot (2, 3, and 7)
• Dubnyk (3)
• Jones (part of the Lucic deal)

Sure you still want to develop your goalies if you can.  Guys like Crawford, Lundqvist, and Price were drafted and developed by their teams.  I also agree you aren't going to get an established top 10 starter so you are taking on a bit of risk that the player will evolve into that.  

 

But given the number of current starters that were acquired in a cheap trade or via free agency it is definitely possible for Treliving to find someone to tandem with Ortio or another.  

[MAC331]

I don't understand why some think you can't get a starter in trade or in free agency.  Some of the top goalies right now that were acquired via trade or free agency (most cheap): 

• Greiss (Free Agent)
• Elliot (Free Agent)
• Bishop (Trade: Conacher and a 4)
• Neuvirth (Free Agent)
• Luongo (Trade: Markstrom, Matthias)
• Schneider (Trade: 9 overall)
• Rask (Trade: Raycroft)
• Talbot (2, 3, and 7)
• Dubnyk (3)
• Jones (part of the Lucic deal)

Sure you still want to develop your goalies if you can.  Guys like Crawford, Lundqvist, and Price were drafted and developed by their teams.  I also agree you aren't going to get an established top 10 starter so you are taking on a bit of risk that the player will evolve into that.  

 

But given the number of current starters that were acquired in a cheap trade or via free agency it is definitely possible for Treliving to find someone to tandem with Ortio or another.  

I agree the door is wide open heading into the offseason.

[jjgallow]

Nobody has suggested they know what they have in Ortio or suggested they don't give him an opportunity.

But you are the one that just suggested they load the camp with a bunch of rookies with no NHL experience and put them in camp with Ortio (and his 40 games) and let them fight it out for the spots.

It is neither ego or panic to suggest the Flames need more security then that.

 

I would argue that an incredible number of people on here have clearly stated that they know what we have now.   I won't bother with the quotes but that's my takeaway.

 

It's not ideal, you're right.  It should have happened 2, 3 years ago.  Maybe earlier.

 

But delaying it, doesn't make it go away.   Every time we deploy stop-gap measures, we make the situation worse in the long run by clogging up our development system.   Ortio should be getting NHL minutes right now.  Gillies isn't far behind.

 

McDonald should be getting AHL time soon.  And so should a number of other prospects we have.

 

Your rebuild starts with your goaltender.  By that definition, our rebuild hasn't even started yet.   Or, we're just starting to now.

 

That's ok to criticize my suggestion, just understand that I'm not seeing a whole let better of ideas out there right now.  Not when you consider cap space, the free agent market, age, and our prospects.

 

And, the fact that, the Moment we solve our goalie problems, is the moment we realize we're still a long ways away from the cup run.  solving the goalie situation brings us to middle of the pack, not top of the league.  So I fail to see the necessity for Band-Aid solutions.  If we were a cup favorite, sure.  Otherwise we're just short-changing what could otherwise be a fantastic rebuild.

[Flyerfan52]

At the end of the day, we're having an off-season discussion about something during the regular season.

 

We don't have nearly enough information to know, yet.   And, yeah, It is affected heavily by Ortio's performance.  It just is.  Hartley had us believing there was something inherently wrong about him that made him not worth developing.  For the last two years.  And, when he's literally forced to play him, we're finding that's not the case.  Likely never was.

 

What's more, Jon Gillies post recovery performance may factor into it before this hockey season is over.  Or not.

 

 

I'm extremely grateful that there is a no-trade rule in effect right now, nullifying all the nutty and ill-informed ideas out there, including my own, and whatever management's are, lol.

 

We need to wait and see.

 

There is not a no trade rule in effect. Players can be traded (if someone wants Drouin he can be traded). They just can't play in the playoffs.

[The_People1]

There is not a no trade rule in effect. Players can be traded (if someone wants Drouin he can be traded). They just can't play in the playoffs.

 

Ya that's actually an important point.  Teams can still make trades right now.  It's just that players traded after the trade deadline cannot play in the playoffs.

[MAC331]

I would argue that an incredible number of people on here have clearly stated that they know what we have now.   I won't bother with the quotes but that's my takeaway.

 

It's not ideal, you're right.  It should have happened 2, 3 years ago.  Maybe earlier.

 

But delaying it, doesn't make it go away.   Every time we deploy stop-gap measures, we make the situation worse in the long run by clogging up our development system.   Ortio should be getting NHL minutes right now.  Gillies isn't far behind.

 

McDonald should be getting AHL time soon.  And so should a number of other prospects we have.

 

Your rebuild starts with your goaltender.  By that definition, our rebuild hasn't even started yet.   Or, we're just starting to now.

 

That's ok to criticize my suggestion, just understand that I'm not seeing a whole let better of ideas out there right now.  Not when you consider cap space, the free agent market, age, and our prospects.

 

And, the fact that, the Moment we solve our goalie problems, is the moment we realize we're still a long ways away from the cup run.  solving the goalie situation brings us to middle of the pack, not top of the league.  So I fail to see the necessity for Band-Aid solutions.  If we were a cup favorite, sure.  Otherwise we're just short-changing what could otherwise be a fantastic rebuild.

Your thinking is to idealistic. The theory of building from the net out is a good one to follow however it depends on who is available at the starting point. I think BT has done a good job taking what we had, fortifying for a stable team and commencing to build a better than average core group. I don't think simply concentrating on a goaltender when there are as many needs elsewhere is prudent either.

 

When I hear that BT was making inquiries about Murray in PIT, it tells me they have their eyes open for someone special if they can get someone.

 

In the mean time, some of these latest trades have improved our pipeline and armed BT once again with a number of draft picks. This along with our finishing record should have us picking 1 to 5 in this year's draft, which should get us another really good player. I would say the building of this team is going along very well considering where we started.

[JTech780]

I would argue that an incredible number of people on here have clearly stated that they know what we have now. I won't bother with the quotes but that's my takeaway.

It's not ideal, you're right. It should have happened 2, 3 years ago. Maybe earlier.

But delaying it, doesn't make it go away. Every time we deploy stop-gap measures, we make the situation worse in the long run by clogging up our development system. Ortio should be getting NHL minutes right now. Gillies isn't far behind.

McDonald should be getting AHL time soon. And so should a number of other prospects we have.

Your rebuild starts with your goaltender. By that definition, our rebuild hasn't even started yet. Or, we're just starting to now.

That's ok to criticize my suggestion, just understand that I'm not seeing a whole let better of ideas out there right now. Not when you consider cap space, the free agent market, age, and our prospects.

And, the fact that, the Moment we solve our goalie problems, is the moment we realize we're still a long ways away from the cup run. solving the goalie situation brings us to middle of the pack, not top of the league. So I fail to see the necessity for Band-Aid solutions. If we were a cup favorite, sure. Otherwise we're just short-changing what could otherwise be a fantastic rebuild.

I guess where our opinions differ is that, and correct me if I am wrong, you seen Ortio as being ready for NHL duty 2-3 years ago and I am still not convinced he is ready to be a full time NHL back up. Again correct me if I am wrong you see Gillies ready as early as next year where I see him needing 2 years in the AHL and a year of back up duty in the NHL.

I prefer to take the patient approach with goalies and really play them lots in the AHL and make sure they can be consistently dominant in the AHL before they are ready for NHL duty.

Show me that you can you can dominate the AHL 2 years in a row and that you are too good for the AHL and then you are ready. IMO Ortio has yet to do that and that is why I am skeptical and not ready to give him the reigns.

[phoenix66]

I don't understand why some think you can't get a starter in trade or in free agency.  Some of the top goalies right now that were acquired via trade or free agency (most cheap): 

• Greiss (Free Agent)
• Elliot (Free Agent)
• Bishop (Trade: Conacher and a 4)
• Neuvirth (Free Agent)
• Luongo (Trade: Markstrom, Matthias)
• Schneider (Trade: 9 overall)
• Rask (Trade: Raycroft)
• Talbot (2, 3, and 7)
• Dubnyk (3)
• Jones (part of the Lucic deal)

Sure you still want to develop your goalies if you can.  Guys like Crawford, Lundqvist, and Price were drafted and developed by their teams.  I also agree you aren't going to get an established top 10 starter so you are taking on a bit of risk that the player will evolve into that.  

 

But given the number of current starters that were acquired in a cheap trade or via free agency it is definitely possible for Treliving to find someone to tandem with Ortio or another.  

this is exactly my point -- almost every goalie on this list was a backup or at best a 1B that was trumped by others in the system they came from. Thats exactly how you do it

[JA_Boomer]

I think a stop gap is what we should consider mostly because there's no young future #1 goalie out there available. No one is giving that up without demanding an arm and a leg. So, if we really believe Gillies is the savior, then go after a stop gap. I actually think Ward would fit this description. He brings Cup experience and would steady the goaltending position on a 2 or 3 year deal.

Ward is 32. I'm okay signing him until 35. In case Gillies isn't the savior, Mason Macdonald is 3-years away from NHL ready. So the timing would work.

I think the best option would be to trade for a young upcoming NHL goalie who can start for us next year. Just like SJ / Martin Jones last summer. Is there one of these fish out there .. I don't have the depth of knowledge about the NHL goalie pool to know. Ortio can back up next year, Gillies can continue his development in the AHL. MacDonald in the ECHL if he turns pro next year.

Second best would be to trade for young goalie prospect who can develop alongside Gillies and one of the two can turn into our starter. Subban, Murray, Vashelevski come to mind in this situation. So we'd resign Ortio and either Ramo (if he looks like he might be rehabbed by training camp) or sign a free agent goalie to get us through next year. These guys might not be considered available, but these teams will quickly have to make a decision to trade or promote these guys, especially Tampa Bay because they're under more of a cap situation.

I'd be more conformable with Ramo than Ward. Not sure what to make of Kudobin. But if Ramo is unavailable to start the season I think you have to go somewhere else.

I guess the last option would be to trade for a veteran goalie like Elliott who could seal the gap until Gillies arrives. But you're really putting a lot of eggs in Gillies' basket because i don't think MacDonald projects to an NHL starter.

[FlamesLogic]

Just to clarify my earlier posts, they are points of discussion, not resolutions.

The UFA goalie list isn't great, in fact Ward or Reimer are likely the best options.

Do you take a chance on a Hutton or Enroth? Do you take the vet backup in Montoya?

 

I'm kinda thinking we re-sign Ramo and Ortio walks after being offered a 2 way, lest his play here on out forces a one way.

Obviously it's all discussion and not my hardened opinion.

 

If it all blows up, and we bring no one back, we'll need probably a Reimer-Hutton combo, or something like that.

But how much cap are we going to have to do that? That's a pretty easy 6mil.

Why offer Ortio a 2 way? It doesnt help his waiver status and would make him less likely to sign. Just qualify him for a year or sign him for two at that level if it avoid arbitration. 

I think he would feel alright about taking 700kish on a one way for a year or two while the flames see if he can really be the backup. His work this past month suggest to me that he can handle that role at a reasonable price for us. 

[jjgallow]

There is not a no trade rule in effect. Players can be traded (if someone wants Drouin he can be traded). They just can't play in the playoffs.

 

I actually never knew that...wow.   That's interesting.   So, it would essentially only happen with a fellow non-playoff bound team then.

 

Which, would basically mean, a prospect.....  I'd be ok with that.   Honestly never really seen a trade after the deadline, though.  Cool.

[jjgallow]

Your thinking is to idealistic. The theory of building from the net out is a good one to follow however it depends on who is available at the starting point. I think BT has done a good job taking what we had, fortifying for a stable team and commencing to build a better than average core group. I don't think simply concentrating on a goaltender when there are as many needs elsewhere is prudent either.

 

When I hear that BT was making inquiries about Murray in PIT, it tells me they have their eyes open for someone special if they can get someone.

 

In the mean time, some of these latest trades have improved our pipeline and armed BT once again with a number of draft picks. This along with our finishing record should have us picking 1 to 5 in this year's draft, which should get us another really good player. I would say the building of this team is going along very well considering where we started.

 

Idealistic or not....it sounds like I'm thinking along the same lines as the organization.

 

Matt Murray would be a great addition at 22 years old this summer, a great frame, nearly perfect numbers, and steady progression.

 

this would be perfect.   My only issues is when I see the 27, 28, 29 year and older goalies being suggested, who if anything appear to be on slight decline, and have little or no chance of developing into world class talent.

 

This is really Ortio's last chance to stay on a development curve for world class talent.  Gillies still has time.  Murray would be ahead of both of them.  

 

I can't actually fathom why we would be acquiring anyone in their late 20's or early 30's for the most important position on the ice at this stage of the build.   Luckily, management can't seem to fathom it either.  A relief.  Whether they can get him affordably, that's an Entirely other dilemma.  But it's the right place to start looking.

 

Either way, I don't think anything happens until after the season is over.  Interesting that it could technically happen, as per FF.  But it makes more sense to gather information on what we have now.

[MAC331]

Idealistic or not....it sounds like I'm thinking along the same lines as the organization.

 

Matt Murray would be a great addition at 22 years old this summer, a great frame, nearly perfect numbers, and steady progression.

 

this would be perfect.   My only issues is when I see the 27, 28, 29 year and older goalies being suggested, who if anything appear to be on slight decline, and have little or no chance of developing into world class talent.

 

This is really Ortio's last chance to stay on a development curve for world class talent.  Gillies still has time.  Murray would be ahead of both of them.  

 

I can't actually fathom why we would be acquiring anyone in their late 20's or early 30's for the most important position on the ice at this stage of the build.   Luckily, management can't seem to fathom it either.  A relief.  Whether they can get him affordably, that's an Entirely other dilemma.  But it's the right place to start looking.

 

Either way, I don't think anything happens until after the season is over.  Interesting that it could technically happen, as per FF.  But it makes more sense to gather information on what we have now.

The question becomes how many Matt Murray's are out there to be had ? the answer was NO from PIT.

I don't disagree about the decision being an important one and not happening until the offseason, possibly around DD timing.

[DirtyDeeds]

That's not that accurate about Kipper, he didn't come out of nowhere. People forget that Kipper was awareded the best goalie in Finland, played for them at the World Junior and then was a 2 time AHL All-Star. He also played pretty well initially for the Sharks he just had the one bad year and got passed by Nabakov who never gave his spot back up. People actual like Kipper came out of nowhere but he didn't. He was a very talented goalied that just needed an opporunity. Also Sutter had been working on that deal for months, it was not made as a reaction to Turek/Mclellan. Sutter made it very well known when he became GM/Head coach he wasn't a big fan of Turek. 

 

Keep in mind it wasn't just the pick it was the roster spot. Jones wasn't coming back and I think they wanted to use the spot to audition other players so that added to their ugency to take Backstrom in return. 

It is common belief that Kipper was brought in as safeguard due to injuries. His stats were less than impressive with San Jose.

In 22 games, Kiprusoff recorded a 5-14-0 record, an .879 save percentage, and a 3.25 goals against average.

 

Sutter knew of his abilities yes but do you think he was thinking starter when he picked him up? I don't...

 

As for the injuries I have to side with Pheonix66:

[cross16]

It is common belief that Kipper was brought in as safeguard due to injuries. His stats were less than impressive with San Jose.

 

Sutter knew of his abilities yes but do you think he was thinking starter when he picked him up? I don't...

 

As for the injuries I have to side with Pheonix66:

 

Without a doubt and Sutter admitted as much. I don't think he figured he was picking up a Veniza winner but I think he was trading for him to come in and compete as a starter and not just to fill in for a few months. Remember, he gave up a 2nd round pick and you don't give up a 2nd round to get someone to give you depth for the rest of the season. Also, at the time it was wildly reported that he was also looking to acquire Cujo from the Detroit Red Wings and it came down to either Cujo or Kipper and becuase Kipper was a fraction of the cost he went with Kipper. 

 

I have no doubt the injuries may have sped up the timeline, but Sutter had been shopping for netminder already even before Turek got hurt. 

[jjgallow]

The question becomes how many Matt Murray's are out there to be had ? the answer was NO from PIT.

I don't disagree about the decision being an important one and not happening until the offseason, possibly around DD timing.

 

Very few.....very few, with his performance at his age.  And yet some on here are even questioning that, due to his lack of experience.

 

It would be an absolute miracle if BT pulled off a trade like that.

 

One or two years ago, he could have been had for a lot less.   And, there are a lot more players like this.  I'm just saying, at the end of the day, we may have to look at players even less developed than Matt Murray.   I'm not saying it's ideal.   Cause it sure isn't.  But it's realistic.  And more sensible than getting older.

 

If BT pulled off a Matt Murray level trade....there would be no complaints from me.  I'm just not holding my breath.

[The_People1]

Without a doubt and Sutter admitted as much. I don't think he figured he was picking up a Veniza winner but I think he was trading for him to come in and compete as a starter and not just to fill in for a few months. Remember, he gave up a 2nd round pick and you don't give up a 2nd round to get someone to give you depth for the rest of the season. Also, at the time it was wildly reported that he was also looking to acquire Cujo from the Detroit Red Wings and it came down to either Cujo or Kipper and becuase Kipper was a fraction of the cost he went with Kipper. 

 

I have no doubt the injuries may have sped up the timeline, but Sutter had been shopping for netminder already even before Turek got hurt. 

 

Ya totals man.  When Sutter had Kipper in SJ, his stats were respectable.  It was only after Sutter left SJ that Kipper's play slipped a bit and then became available via trade.  Sutter knew he was trading for a starter, not a Vezina winner but definitely a starter.  He never liked Turek from the beginning.

[travel_dude]

This should make JJ feel good.  BH said that Ortio will get the bulk of the starts from now on.

[jjgallow]

This should make JJ feel good.  BH said that Ortio will get the bulk of the starts from now on.

 

I'm actually embarrassed to say, I'm still not happy....I'm THAT insufferable, lol.

 

My dream is an impossible one.

 

• Ortio proves everyone wrong and shows starter material.
• At the same time, we get Auston Matthews.

 

Not very likely am I to have my cake and eat it too.

 

Although....if the Flames keep up this whole No Scoring thing.....you never know...