Goaltending

[AlbertaBoy12]

                                                                                                                      

The worst part is people saying its the defence at fault for these goals, could they be better on some plays? sure, but at the same time your goalie has to make a save once in a while. When the entire league knows just shoot high on the guy and you will score, you have a problem. The graphic they had up the other night vs Vancouver was pretty telling, hiller is at 80% save percentage anywhere in the middle of the ice while the league average I think was 92%? thats beyond terrible. 

[jjgallow]

The worst part is people saying its the defence at fault for these goals, could they be better on some plays? sure, but at the same time your goalie has to make a save once in a while. When the entire league knows just shoot high on the guy and you will score, you have a problem. The graphic they had up the other night vs Vancouver was pretty telling, hiller is at 80% save percentage anywhere in the middle of the ice while the league average I think was 92%? thats beyond terrible. 

 

I don't blame Hiller, he's barely been played this year.   If he's given a fair run of games, he will sort things out, I'm confident of that.  

 

The thing is, Ortio would sort things out if he were given a run of games too.

 

And ultimately, no matter what they do, they're not going to get consistent goaltending in time to avoid playoff elimination.  It's just not going to happen.

 

And it's not an issue with not having good enough goalies.  It's about taking one relatively average goalie (Ramo) and force-playing him every game until he's hurt, and all the other goalies are cold.

 

If we had been getting spectacular goaltending out of Ramo, then maybe there would be some kind of counter-arguement.  But...not even that.

[CheersMan]

ARI seems to have a glut of goaltenders at the moment.  Dominque looks to be doing a decent job while Mike Smith is on IR.  ARI has 3 young goaltenders with expiring contracts this season.  Dominque appears deserving of a decent raise, combined with Smith that could be too much dough tied up in net for a budget team.  Smith could be available, if the price is right he could be a nice 2-3 year bridge for the Flames.  ARI has only 2 dmen signed beyond this season, Russell plus ?? might be a fit there in exchange for Smith.

 

[travel_dude]

I don't blame Hiller, he's barely been played this year.   If he's given a fair run of games, he will sort things out, I'm confident of that.  

 

The thing is, Ortio would sort things out if he were given a run of games too.

 

And ultimately, no matter what they do, they're not going to get consistent goaltending in time to avoid playoff elimination.  It's just not going to happen.

 

And it's not an issue with not having good enough goalies.  It's about taking one relatively average goalie (Ramo) and force-playing him every game until he's hurt, and all the other goalies are cold.

 

If we had been getting spectacular goaltending out of Ramo, then maybe there would be some kind of counter-arguement.  But...not even that.

 

I'm not sure I agree about Hiller sorting it out.  Since January 13th he has played 12 games, starting all one out of the last 7. As far as I can remember, he has played one good game (@VAN), relieved and won a game (#SJS), and been average or worse the rest. The win against the Panthers was 15 saves.

 

I'm not sure that Ortio can sort it out.  When he came in the last two years, he had been playing in the AHL (and playing well).  His has not looked good in any games here yet.  Not that he has played many.  But to start, you have to show some positives.  2 GA on 11 shots is not inspiring.

 

During practice today, Ortio had the starter net, but somehow lost it to Hiller.  It must have been pretty glaring considering Hiller's record against his ex team.

[jjgallow]

I'm not sure I agree about Hiller sorting it out.  Since January 13th he has played 12 games, starting all one out of the last 7. As far as I can remember, he has played one good game (@VAN), relieved and won a game (#SJS), and been average or worse the rest. The win against the Panthers was 15 saves.

 

I can appreciate your perspective on that and you have a point, but I think we've gotten ourselves into a very strange mindset in Calgary where we think that 12 games is a lot.  It's not.   15 games is a bare minimum to get into any kind of groove, especially this late in the season and especially after barely playing at all for 2-3 months.   Which is why the "evaluation" on Ortio this year, in my mind, is questionable at best.

 

I could be wrong, and Jonas could continue to struggle all year, of course.   But our approach on goaltenders...is a bit odd.

[robrob1974]

I can appreciate your perspective on that and you have a point, but I think we've gotten ourselves into a very strange mindset in Calgary where we think that 12 games is a lot.  It's not.   15 games is a bare minimum to get into any kind of groove, especially this late in the season and especially after barely playing at all for 2-3 months.   Which is why the "evaluation" on Ortio this year, in my mind, is questionable at best.

 

I could be wrong, and Jonas could continue to struggle all year, of course.   But our approach on goaltenders...is a bit odd.

 

The decision I find most peculiar is the fact that Hartley rotated the goalies and didn't let them get into any rhythm at all, and then Ramo gets into one when Hiller goes down, and now he decided he can let Hiller do it too. 

 

He should have rode one in the first place. It's like you said, a few games doesnt get you going. 

 

I think it's time to go to Ortio. I am not a fan of Ortio, but I am not a fan of Hiller either, and he's shown he doesn't deserve anymore starts. Next year he is earning Euros. 

[rickross]

I can appreciate your perspective on that and you have a point, but I think we've gotten ourselves into a very strange mindset in Calgary where we think that 12 games is a lot. It's not. 15 games is a bare minimum to get into any kind of groove, especially this late in the season and especially after barely playing at all for 2-3 months. Which is why the "evaluation" on Ortio this year, in my mind, is questionable at best.

I could be wrong, and Jonas could continue to struggle all year, of course. But our approach on goaltenders...is a bit odd.

This year we've struggled to find our identity in goal. Falling behind so early on this season derailed any stability in net. Hiller has yet to find his rhythm this year, Ortio deserves a longer look at this point in his career, not sure what the Flames plan is for this kid. He's been in our organization a long time, think Kipper even hand picked him but just hasn't been given a proper chance yet.

[DirtyDeeds]

The decision I find most peculiar is the fact that Hartley rotated the goalies and didn't let them get into any rhythm at all, and then Ramo gets into one when Hiller goes down, and now he decided he can let Hiller do it too. 

 

He should have rode one in the first place. It's like you said, a few games doesnt get you going. 

 

I think it's time to go to Ortio. I am not a fan of Ortio, but I am not a fan of Hiller either, and he's shown he doesn't deserve anymore starts. Next year he is earning Euros. 

He did not rotate the goalies, he flip flopped 2 of the 3 goalies early. He did not have much choice, neither one played well enough. There is nothing peculiar about that when you consider BH only wants 2 goalies on the playing roster. 3 just don't work.

 

I still think that Hiller is the guy until the trade deadline. Once that passes the Flames will give Ortio a good run to see if he is worth bringing back another year.

[tincup1]

I'm no expert on goalies but why does Hiller go onto his knees whenever the play gets anywhere near him ?  Every player in the league must know to go high on him.  He's so frustrating to watch. 

[kehatch]

I can appreciate your perspective on that and you have a point, but I think we've gotten ourselves into a very strange mindset in Calgary where we think that 12 games is a lot. It's not. 15 games is a bare minimum to get into any kind of groove, especially this late in the season and especially after barely playing at all for 2-3 months. Which is why the "evaluation" on Ortio this year, in my mind, is questionable at best.

I could be wrong, and Jonas could continue to struggle all year, of course. But our approach on goaltenders...is a bit odd.

I disagree. I don't care who the team is. If your goalie is bad for a dozen games you give your other guy a chance. Giving a goalie a run of games for that long in spite of the results is and thinking that makes sense is the strange mind set.

I do agree that giving Ortio the starts makes sense. How you can justify investing these many bad performances into a UFA while your young RFA continues to decline in the bench is silly. Especially when your clearly out of the playoffs.

Hartley is doing that because he feels he deserves it in a contract year and because Ramo got that opportunity. I don't agree though. Hiller would deserve it I'd he was play well. You know, always earned and all of that.

I don't like Ortio but playing him for a few games is the only thing that makes sense right now.

[rocketdoctor]

balanced article on our GT situation

 

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/02/goaltending-five-year-plan-part-1.html

[jjgallow]

I disagree. I don't care who the team is. If your goalie is bad for a dozen games you give your other guy a chance. Giving a goalie a run of games for that long in spite of the results is and thinking that makes sense is the strange mind set.

 

And again, lol, I don't really see how you're disagreeing.....   Hiller wasn't great over those dozen games.   But it wasn't an issue of giving Ramo a chance.   Of course he should get a chance.    The issue is that Ramo wasn't great either....and he was given a very long run.  So he finishes the season with his worst performance ever (.906), of a track record that has never been more than mediocre.

 

Yet he gets a long run that puts all the other tenders cold.  IMHO, I don't know why we ever had two mediocre tenders and one rookie at the start of the year.  But we did.  And somehow still managed to keep only one of them in game shape.

 

It's like they successively made bad decision after bad decision, until by process of elimination they finally only had the good decision left.   Why Ortio was never given a real chance, I don't know.    But if you're going to just go Ramo and Hiller...well, they're nearly one and the same.  Neither is great.   Neither is horrible.  So you play them 50/50.  Obviously, and keep them both in game shape.

 

But no, we want to "play the hot goalie" and keep the other one cold.  Even though neither is hot.

 

So....we pretend that .906 is "hot", play them until they get injured, and we're left with a cold vet, and a cold rookie.

 

So basically, we're back to where we should have been at the start of the season.  Except it's nearly March.

[travel_dude]

I can appreciate your perspective on that and you have a point, but I think we've gotten ourselves into a very strange mindset in Calgary where we think that 12 games is a lot.  It's not.   15 games is a bare minimum to get into any kind of groove, especially this late in the season and especially after barely playing at all for 2-3 months.   Which is why the "evaluation" on Ortio this year, in my mind, is questionable at best.

 

I could be wrong, and Jonas could continue to struggle all year, of course.   But our approach on goaltenders...is a bit odd.

 

I don't think there are too many teams that would give a goalie 15 starts in a row without seeing a serious winning streak.  Even then, they would give him a night off.  Hiller has not played more than a few games all season where he showed himself worth of trust.

 

I don't mind putting Ortio in.  It's long since time.  If he craps the bed, give him a 2nd to get his crap together.  Don't sentence him just for one bad start.  Need to see what he can do right now.

[cross16]

I don't blame Hiller, he's barely been played this year.   If he's given a fair run of games, he will sort things out, I'm confident of that.  

 

The thing is, Ortio would sort things out if he were given a run of games too.

 

And ultimately, no matter what they do, they're not going to get consistent goaltending in time to avoid playoff elimination.  It's just not going to happen.

 

And it's not an issue with not having good enough goalies.  It's about taking one relatively average goalie (Ramo) and force-playing him every game until he's hurt, and all the other goalies are cold.

 

If we had been getting spectacular goaltending out of Ramo, then maybe there would be some kind of counter-arguement.  But...not even that.

 

I think this is making excuses for HIller. Cold or not, there is no excuse for Hillers plays right now becuase its beyond terrible. He is not even playing an the calibre of an NHL goalie right now and there are plenty of NHL goalies that can sit for weeks at a time and stil play OK, clearly HIller is not one of them. If your point were true he should be getting better game after game and he is not. I would argue that he has shown zero improvement since the Pheonix game, its not a games played its a fact that Hiller is no longer an NHL goalie thing. 

 

I agree its not going to help them make the playoffs that ship has sailed but I also don't want the young kids having to play in front of terrible goaltending.  Get to the point where you feel you can never make a mistake becuae it will wind up in your net and that IMO is dangerous from a development standpoint.

 

I don't like Ortio either, but I agree they should no give him his 5 games or so and se what he can do. Really no value in playing HIller anymore. 

[andymo]

Intersting article, RocDoc. I am worried by our future in net. I think Ortio has been wasted. We wasted the opportunity to see what we have and he will very likely leave before we find out. Every GM out there knows we are desperate for tenders which will not help with trade negotiations. We should never have started this season with two average pending UFAs. If we really are to progress, we need a long-term genuine top class number 1, and they don't grow on trees.I can see Treliving overpaying out of necessity and giving up something we really don't want to lose. I have a feeling this us going to hurt...

[robrob1974]

Intersting article, RocDoc. I am worried by our future in net. I think Ortio has been wasted. We wasted the opportunity to see what we have and he will very likely leave before we find out. Every GM out there knows we are desperate for tenders which will not help with trade negotiations. We should never have started this season with two average pending UFAs. If we really are to progress, we need a long-term genuine top class number 1, and they don't grow on trees.I can see Treliving overpaying out of necessity and giving up something we really don't want to lose. I have a feeling this us going to hurt...

Who knows, maybe we can get a goalie for Russell or Hudler, or a combination of both or a pick.

This part is a response To Deeds, I still think, even though Hiller and Ramo were bad, that one should have gotten a run in the beginning of the season. It was clear that Hiller and Ramo were not getting into any sort of groove and there was no playing Ortio. I know both played horrible, but one needed to play more as shown by Ramo's performance after Hiller got injured.

After last night's game you would think it is time to try Ortio. But I guess 10 points is still within striking distance of the playoffs...

[cross16]

Who knows, maybe we can get a goalie for Russell or Hudler, or a combination of both or a pick.

This part is a response To Deeds, I still think, even though Hiller and Ramo were bad, that one should have gotten a run in the beginning of the season. It was clear that Hiller and Ramo were not getting into any sort of groove and there was no playing Ortio. I know both played horrible, but one needed to play more as shown by Ramo's performance after Hiller got injured.

After last night's game you would think it is time to try Ortio. But I guess 10 points is still within striking distance of the playoffs...

 

I think the issue with goaltending extends beyond this, its not about making the playoffs anymore and iMO hasn't for a while its about giving your guys a chance. I beleive goaltending is like a QB in football in that if you have a bad one its almost like starting the game in a hole becuase everytime you get scored on it hurts becuase you know more is coming. You put extra pressure on yourself becuase you know you are going to need 3,4, maybe 5 goals to win a game becuase you just won't get a save at your end. I really don't want the mindset plaging guys like Hamilton, Bennett etc I want them thinking they can make the odd mistake and it won't wind up in their own net every single friggen time, like it is right now. 

 

Last night is a great example. Did Hamilton make a great play on the puck, no, but it wasn't a horrible play either. That's the time you want your goalie to help out your player so Hamilton doesn't suddenly start playing an ultra safe game becuase he doens't trust his goalie to make a save if he makes an error. 

[andymo]

Who knows, maybe we can get a goalie for Russell or Hudler, or a combination of both or a pick.

This part is a response To Deeds, I still think, even though Hiller and Ramo were bad, that one should have gotten a run in the beginning of the season. It was clear that Hiller and Ramo were not getting into any sort of groove and there was no playing Ortio. I know both played horrible, but one needed to play more as shown by Ramo's performance after Hiller got injured.

After last night's game you would think it is time to try Ortio. But I guess 10 points is still within striking distance of the playoffs...

I don't know how Ramo will perform, but I know Hiller won't take us to the playoffs. This is the last chance for the organization to see if he can do a job. If they don't play him now, they never will, and it would not send a good message to prospective signings of young goalies.

[travel_dude]

I think the issue with goaltending extends beyond this, its not about making the playoffs anymore and iMO hasn't for a while its about giving your guys a chance. I beleive goaltending is like a QB in football in that if you have a bad one its almost like starting the game in a hole becuase everytime you get scored on it hurts becuase you know more is coming. You put extra pressure on yourself becuase you know you are going to need 3,4, maybe 5 goals to win a game becuase you just won't get a save at your end. I really don't want the mindset plaging guys like Hamilton, Bennett etc I want them thinking they can make the odd mistake and it won't wind up in their own net every single friggen time, like it is right now. 

 

Last night is a great example. Did Hamilton make a great play on the puck, no, but it wasn't a horrible play either. That's the time you want your goalie to help out your player so Hamilton doesn't suddenly start playing an ultra safe game becuase he doens't trust his goalie to make a save if he makes an error. 

 

It's time to move on from Hiller.  The game has passed him by.  There is no benefit to play him.  Nada.  He's not going to go on a 20 game winning streak.  He's not going to be a Flame come July 1st.  He doesn't inspire confidence in the other players.  He puts the Flames in a hole every game he plays.  It's like playing baseball with the kid that drops every ball that comes to him.  You want to give him a chance, but he keeps letting the team down.  

[Krule]

per Friedman on HNIC:

"He said he has heard the Flames inquiring about Matt Murray from Penguins AHL team, but can't confirm it. He also said all teams inquiring about Murray have been rebuffed so far. Which Cox says means he is unavailable.

And for further smoke the Flames were scouting the Toronto Marlies vs Wilkes Barre Penguins last night

Friedman also said the #1 priority for the Flames at the deadline is to acquire a goaltender.

Murray is considered on the best goalies in the AHL, and could be ready to be slowly introduced into the NHL."

What do you guys think about trying to acquire Matt Murray from Pittsburg at the TDL? What would be the cost? I think maybe Hudler/Russel and a 2nd? Maybe a rental, Ortio/MacDonald and a 2nd. Intriguing goalie for our troubled spot? And yes, this discussion is in the "Realistic Trade Discussions for Improvement" thread, but he is a goalie and thought it should be in here

Stats pilfered from CP...

2014-2015

AHL All-Rookie Team

AHL Best GAA (1.58)

AHL Best Goaltender (Baz Bastien Memorial Award)

AHL Best Goaltending Duo (Harry Holmes Memorial Award)

AHL Best SVS% (.941)

AHL First All-Star Team

AHL Goaltender of the Month (February)

AHL Goaltender of the Month (March)

AHL Player of the Week (Feb. 8)

AHL Player of the Week (Mar. 8)

AHL Rookie of the Year (Red Garrett Memorial Award)

[andymo]

Penguins don't want to trade him and have no reason to. It would take a more enticing package than tgat to change their mind.

[travel_dude]

Penguins don't want to trade him and have no reason to. It would take a more enticing package than tgat to change their mind.

 

They can keep him.  He's had his time to shine.  He's not going to take the Pens to the finals ever again.  Why would I waste time with an aging goalie like him?  $5.75m until 2018/19?  No thanks.  He's another Ryan Miller.

[robrob1974]

They can keep him. He's had his time to shine. He's not going to take the Pens to the finals ever again. Why would I waste time with an aging goalie like him? $5.75m until 2018/19? No thanks. He's another Ryan Miller.

I think he was referring to Matt Murrey not Fleury.

[jjgallow]

I don't mind putting Ortio in.  It's long since time.  If he craps the bed, give him a 2nd to get his crap together.  Don't sentence him just for one bad start.  Need to see what he can do right now.

 

lol.....agreed.  Except....I would give him more than a 2nd.  And, it'll probably take more than a 2nd.  Just saying.

 

True, nobody's going to give a goalie 15 bad games in a row.    There have to be some good ones, and overall improvement to boot.

 

Truth lies somewhere inbetween imho.

[travel_dude]

I think he was referring to Matt Murrey not Fleury.

 

Fair enough.  There wasn't a specific goalie he was mentioning, so I assumed it may be MAF, since I have seen that name being bandied about elsewhere.  Regardless, I have stated my position on acquiring him or Miller.