Goaltending

[conundrumed]

I still believe our goaltending isn't as bad as it has been, and with vets you've kinda got to let them play through it. I'm not saying this because Ramo had one solid game. He could lay a stinker again, but, with veteran goalies, you have to believe they can play out of t until the puck becomes a beachball again.

It's hard to watch, but sometimes it's worth stepping back and saying, "I know our goaltending is better than this".

I think the 3 ring circus played in their heads a bit off the hop, temperamental bunch....

[Cowtownguy]

We can blame goaltending all we want to and it will not fix our team. Yes, I think Ramo tends to overplay shots, falls dangerously out of position, and lets in goals at the worst possible times. Yes, Hiller has had a terrible start and I suspect is unlikely to be the goalie he used to be when he was at his peak. This is still not the problem in my opinion. They are good goalies.

 

The problem starts, but is not limited to, our defensive zone play. We used to transition the puck unbelievably fast and that is not happening now. When was the last time you watched a Flames game and were impressed by our lightning speed in both directions? We got into some very poor habits late in the playoffs where we found ways to keep the puck out of the net simply by blocking shots and keeping the puck to the margins. That play is unsustainable, and we keep doing that instead of transitioning. This is true for every defenseman we have with the exception of Brodie. If you watch the two goals last night (against the Caps), Gio was way out of position. He was closer to the point man than his winger. A forward can replace a defenseman in the offensive zone, but it should happen rarely in the defensive zone. On the second goal, Brodie was clearly confused as to which player to take. Need I mention that poor penalty Gio took in the third two games ago that resulted in the beginning of the end? Hamilton is struggling to fit into a team that is itself unclear of how to play. I really don't blame him for looking out of sorts.

 

If we are going to play this style of offensive hockey, it means being the first to recover the puck and making excellent passes to forwards who put themselves in positions to take passes. The defense require at least one passing option and they are frequently getting none when they do actually get to the puck first. All Flames fans get that nervous feeling when our team loses possession of the puck in the offensive zone because we know deep down that every drive towards our zone could mean the puck staying there for several minutes; an eternity in ice hockey terms. All of this poor play is clearly encapsulated in our low puck possession scores.

 

So, I don't care which goalie you put in net. If they are taking dozens of shots from opposition players deep in the slot who are able to stand there without so much as experiencing a frown, then they are going to get scored on a lot. The only way to prevent that is to transition out or bang away, and this team, apart from Smid, is not built for banging at all. Blaming the goaltender is the mark of a loser team in deep Freudian denial. Edmonton did it (and still do) when they played sucky defense and Toronto has done so for, oh I don't know, 6 decades or something. If we were to actually bring in Lundqvist, Quick, or Price, all it will do is mask how poorly we play in other areas of the ice and we already did that over the last years with Kipper. Heck, if we got a mason to build us a cement wall in front of the net with just a 2" x 4" opening, we would still lose games 1-0 or 2-1.

 

We can blame the goalies, the coach, the GM or anyone else. Simply put, a rebuild does not get completed in a year or two. It means obtaining the right talent, educating them assuming they want to be educated, generating the right chemistry, and luck. Hartley can no more make this team a winner in a year or two than Einstein could turn an 8 year old into a world class leading physicist even with the talent, desire, and training. When people start calling for Hartley's head, and they will, just remember how even Ralph Krueger was unable to make the tools up north institute the proper playing structure or how the Sedin's responded to being yelled at, called out, or ridiculed. Being patient means a willingness to allow for a 5 year rebuild. Anything less is the very definition of Leaf culture.

 

Sorry for the long post.

[MAC331]

We can blame goaltending all we want to and it will not fix our team. Yes, I think Ramo tends to overplay shots, falls dangerously out of position, and lets in goals at the worst possible times. Yes, Hiller has had a terrible start and I suspect is unlikely to be the goalie he used to be when he was at his peak. This is still not the problem in my opinion. They are good goalies.

 

The problem starts, but is not limited to, our defensive zone play. We used to transition the puck unbelievably fast and that is not happening now. When was the last time you watched a Flames game and were impressed by our lightning speed in both directions? We got into some very poor habits late in the playoffs where we found ways to keep the puck out of the net simply by blocking shots and keeping the puck to the margins. That play is unsustainable, and we keep doing that instead of transitioning. This is true for every defenseman we have with the exception of Brodie. If you watch the two goals last night (against the Caps), Gio was way out of position. He was closer to the point man than his winger. A forward can replace a defenseman in the offensive zone, but it should happen rarely in the defensive zone. On the second goal, Brodie was clearly confused as to which player to take. Need I mention that poor penalty Gio took in the third two games ago that resulted in the beginning of the end? Hamilton is struggling to fit into a team that is itself unclear of how to play. I really don't blame him for looking out of sorts.

 

If we are going to play this style of offensive hockey, it means being the first to recover the puck and making excellent passes to forwards who put themselves in positions to take passes. The defense require at least one passing option and they are frequently getting none when they do actually get to the puck first. All Flames fans get that nervous feeling when our team loses possession of the puck in the offensive zone because we know deep down that every drive towards our zone could mean the puck staying there for several minutes; an eternity in ice hockey terms. All of this poor play is clearly encapsulated in our low puck possession scores.

 

So, I don't care which goalie you put in net. If they are taking dozens of shots from opposition players deep in the slot who are able to stand there without so much as experiencing a frown, then they are going to get scored on a lot. The only way to prevent that is to transition out or bang away, and this team, apart from Smid, is not built for banging at all. Blaming the goaltender is the mark of a loser team in deep Freudian denial. Edmonton did it (and still do) when they played sucky defense and Toronto has done so for, oh I don't know, 6 decades or something. If we were to actually bring in Lundqvist, Quick, or Price, all it will do is mask how poorly we play in other areas of the ice and we already did that over the last years with Kipper. Heck, if we got a mason to build us a cement wall in front of the net with just a 2" x 4" opening, we would still lose games 1-0 or 2-1.

 

We can blame the goalies, the coach, the GM or anyone else. Simply put, a rebuild does not get completed in a year or two. It means obtaining the right talent, educating them assuming they want to be educated, generating the right chemistry, and luck. Hartley can no more make this team a winner in a year or two than Einstein could turn an 8 year old into a world class leading physicist even with the talent, desire, and training. When people start calling for Hartley's head, and they will, just remember how even Ralph Krueger was unable to make the tools up north institute the proper playing structure or how the Sedin's responded to being yelled at, called out, or ridiculed. Being patient means a willingness to allow for a 5 year rebuild. Anything less is the very definition of Leaf culture.

 

Sorry for the long post.

The overall team play is starting to improve and so is the play of Ramo (go figure). The blame game is always just discontented fans blowing off steam. The talent is here to have more consistent play and now that BH is settling in on some consistent pairings and lines we are seeing good results.

[conundrumed]

Sorry for the long post.

Don't be sorry...you aren't wrong, but I think our goalies (Hiller and Ramo imo) have gotten off to a bad start. Goalies can face a lot of dangerous chances and a ton of shots. But they can't fall back on "team play" every time they give up 4 to 6. Even when that's correct.

You still need your goalies to lead and you need them to over-perform and steal games or at least keep them close. It's the number 1 position to lead from, and it's been deflating too often for a team that needs that so far.

But my point is, our goaltending is better than it has been, and it will be again. A goalie's job is to bail out mistakes and not gift any goals.

They did it last year, they'll do it this year yet.

Ramo and Hiller are night and day, I like that. NHL vets don't just suddenly become unworthy, just rough patches.

Sometimes you need your goalies to save you from your team's horrific play, it'll be there again, I'm confident in what we have, stats be damned!!

One issue(imho) I'm having, is none of our goalies feel a commitment from mgmt/coaching, so their play exudes it.

Everyone says they're a different breed, I think that plays into it. e.g. Hiller not the opening night goalie, we can pretend they need to play regardless, but I believe their psyche takes a hit, personally. Ortio hanging around Ramo, I think this stuff plays on goalies.

[travel_dude]

I believe that Ortio is destined to go through waivers as soon as Hiller is good to play. It makes the most sense and will sort of explain why he has been ranked 3rd of the 3. I think he has a better/good chance at passing through waivers now than before when they put Ramo through.

 

Steinberg mentioned in after hours that Ortio is not at his best in practices. That this is an area of becoming a Pro that he needs to work on. 

 

We all know how demanding that BH is on practices and that they be at game situation speeds and conditioning so I think this has a big infleuence into where he gets ranked of the 3.

 

I look at the cap and worry what waiving Ortio does.  $600k in relief.  Compare that to $950k if either Hiller or Ramo gets waived.

It's kinda tight with both those guys back.  Unless Hille gets a new hip, is he going to be better or be as bad as he was the early part of the season.  I don't know.  If they are running with Ramo and Hiller, just waive Ortio now, while there are no injuries in goalie-world.  Less chance of him being claimed.  Bring up Poulin as backup.  He's not going to play anyway.  Ortio gets starter minutes in the AHL and the intrigue is done.

[JTech780]

I look at the cap and worry what waiving Ortio does.  $600k in relief.  Compare that to $950k if either Hiller or Ramo gets waived.

It's kinda tight with both those guys back.  Unless Hille gets a new hip, is he going to be better or be as bad as he was the early part of the season.  I don't know.  If they are running with Ramo and Hiller, just waive Ortio now, while there are no injuries in goalie-world.  Less chance of him being claimed.  Bring up Poulin as backup.  He's not going to play anyway.  Ortio gets starter minutes in the AHL and the intrigue is done.

 

At this point it is pretty obvious that Ortio isn't going to play, so sending him to Stockton makes the most sense for both team and player. If he gets claimed, good for him hopefully he gets playing time with his new team, I don't see it as a huge loss for us as I don't think he has starter upside anyways. We have Poulin who slots in as the 3rd string goalie so we are covered.

[kehatch]

At this point it is pretty obvious that Ortio isn't going to play, so sending him to Stockton makes the most sense for both team and player. If he gets claimed, good for him hopefully he gets playing time with his new team, I don't see it as a huge loss for us as I don't think he has starter upside anyways. We have Poulin who slots in as the 3rd string goalie so we are covered.

 

Agreed,  For the most part.  That said, I would be concerned if Ortio was claimed.  As much as I don't love him as a prospect, we haven't seen enough of him to know what we have yet.  Both Ramo and Hiller are UFA at the end of the season and Gilles isn't ready.  It would be really great if Ortio established himself as an NHL starter and I really wish this team would at least give him the chance.  

 

But, if they won't (and clearly they won't) then they might as well waive him because him sitting the bench helps nobody.  

[jjgallow]

Agreed,  For the most part.  That said, I would be concerned if Ortio was claimed.  As much as I don't love him as a prospect, we haven't seen enough of him to know what we have yet.  Both Ramo and Hiller are UFA at the end of the season and Gilles isn't ready.  It would be really great if Ortio established himself as an NHL starter and I really wish this team would at least give him the chance.  

 

But, if they won't (and clearly they won't) then they might as well waive him because him sitting the bench helps nobody.  

 

Thanks kehatch,

 

As someone who has had high hopes for Ortio as a prospect, I need to point out that neither Hiller or Ramo have really shown signs of being a number one goalie this year either.   And they are older.  

 

So, it is ultimately still frustrating that we refuse to invest in a prospect who has shown to be competent at the NHL level and has the potential to be much better.

 

Our last game against the Capitals saw some better goaltender, but I would only call it average, and that is really the best Ramo's been.  

 

Some one here are pretty close to ruling Ortio out, based on extremely limited information.  

 

At some point, I will also hope that Ortio is claimed elsewhere.  But, for his sake.   I would only want this if it is Entirely clear that the Flames will never even attempt to properly develop him at the NHL level.  And we are close to this. 

 

I don't want to be in a situation where I'm cheering more for players who Were Flames, than are.   Like Baertschi.  Who is coming around now and playing decent hockey for the Canucks.   Ortio, it would be 10x worse.

[travel_dude]

Thanks kehatch,

 

As someone who has had high hopes for Ortio as a prospect, I need to point out that neither Hiller or Ramo have really shown signs of being a number one goalie this year either.   And they are older.  

 

So, it is ultimately still frustrating that we refuse to invest in a prospect who has shown to be competent at the NHL level and has the potential to be much better.

 

Our last game against the Capitals saw some better goaltender, but I would only call it average, and that is really the best Ramo's been.  

 

Some one here are pretty close to ruling Ortio out, based on extremely limited information.  

 

At some point, I will also hope that Ortio is claimed elsewhere.  But, for his sake.   I would only want this if it is Entirely clear that the Flames will never even attempt to properly develop him at the NHL level.  And we are close to this. 

 

I don't want to be in a situation where I'm cheering more for players who Were Flames, than are.   Like Baertschi.  Who is coming around now and playing decent hockey for the Canucks.   Ortio, it would be 10x worse.

 

Calling Ramo's performance as average is a little insulting.  Were any of the goals his fault?  Don't think so.  Both were defensive lapses.  1st one was Ferland leaving his guy alone thinking he was in the wrong spot.  The 2ns was Brodie leaving the guy before Gio came in.

 

If BT wants to keep Ortio, he has to send Hiller to Stockton as soon as he comes off IR.  If he can't play better there, then waive Hiller at the end of the conditioning stint.  At some point Hartley will play Ortio.  If he is no better, then he has to go.

[CheersMan]

I don't see the Flames waiving Ortio unless they're 100% certain he will clear. If the Flames don't start stringing some wins together soon then I could see Ortio getting plenty of starts in the later half of the season. Ortio may not be seeing game action right now but he is seeing and learning a lot in the mean time. Ortio is a Flame and I truly hope he can have a career here.

[jjgallow]

Calling Ramo's performance as average is a little insulting.  Were any of the goals his fault?  Don't think so.  Both were defensive lapses.  1st one was Ferland leaving his guy alone thinking he was in the wrong spot.  The 2ns was Brodie leaving the guy before Gio came in.

 

If BT wants to keep Ortio, he has to send Hiller to Stockton as soon as he comes off IR.  If he can't play better there, then waive Hiller at the end of the conditioning stint.  At some point Hartley will play Ortio.  If he is no better, then he has to go.

 

Ok.....with regards to the last game, I take it back.  Ramo played well.    I don't think that changes my message, however, as a reflection of average goaltending this season.

 

With regards to your second part, this is what I would like to see.  If anything, to condition Hiller.   Although, I wonder why Ortio couldn't be played sooner.  Despite Ramo having a solid effort on Friday.    But I don't see why, if all three are average overall, Ortio would be the one to go.   Maybe after 10-15 games we could Consider that.  Like most of us had agreed upon at the start of the year.  I don't see why barely playing him at all would change that.

[kehatch]

Ramo can light the world on fire for a period or a game and then stink it up the next. We have seen him make save of the year candidates in the first and second only to flush the game down the toilet with a couple of weak ones in the third.

Last night he was good. But does anyone have even the slightest intelligent guess what he will be next game?

[tmac70]

Ramo can light the world on fire for a period or a game and then stink it up the next. We have seen him make save of the year candidates in the first and second only to flush the game down the toilet with a couple of weak ones in the third.

Last night he was good. But does anyone have even the slightest intelligent guess what he will be next game?

 A better choice than Ortio,  . It is painfully obvious that Ortio will only play if Ramo/Hiller are injured. I don't see the love affair with Ortio, He is not a starter in the NHL.  Now with regards to prospects I agree he has not been handled well.

 

We know that Hartley has no issue sticking with younger players as part of the learning curve.  He apparently has  zero faith in the defensive coverage to help Ortio or in Ortio himself.

[travel_dude]

Ramo can light the world on fire for a period or a game and then stink it up the next. We have seen him make save of the year candidates in the first and second only to flush the game down the toilet with a couple of weak ones in the third.

Last night he was good. But does anyone have even the slightest intelligent guess what he will be next game?

 

The last 5 games are probably a better indication of defensive coverage and solid goaltending coming together.

 

Philly game - 1 GA, 1 GF in regulation

Pitts game - 2 GA, 5 GF

FLA game - 4 GA, 3 GF - 3rd goal no chance, 4th goal Jagr left alone

TBL game - 3 GA, 1 GF - 2nd and 3rd goals no chance

WASH game - 2 GA 2 GF in regulation - both goals players left wide open

 

In all those games, Ramo gave us a chance to win.  FLA games was perhaps the worst showing.  In the WASH game, he held the fort with the Flames trying to find a way to lose in the 3rd.

 

I'm not saying Ramo is a world beater, but maybe take away 2nd and 3rd attempts or extended zone pressure by providing decent defense.  

[cross16]

Florida game was pretty bad IMO. The first goak he needs to coral and not give up a rebound and the jagr goal was stoppable as well. Routine? Maybe not but it was one you expect your goalie to max. The puck never left the ice and wasn't exactly put in a difficult spot so I put that on Ramo.

So while I agree that over the last 5 or so starts you've consistently seen a better Ramo I do agree with Kehatch that it's very tough to predict what Ramo you are going to get.

[MAC331]

Florida game was pretty bad IMO. The first goak he needs to coral and not give up a rebound and the jagr goal was stoppable as well. Routine? Maybe not but it was one you expect your goalie to max. The puck never left the ice and wasn't exactly put in a difficult spot so I put that on Ramo.

So while I agree that over the last 5 or so starts you've consistently seen a better Ramo I do agree with Kehatch that it's very tough to predict what Ramo you are going to get.

Does it not seem to you that every goalie is having these types of games ? Maybe it is the style of play in the game these days. I watch highlights and see all kinds of light goals getting past very good goalies.

I still maintain our whole team has to be better defensively and a major part of that should be puck possession. The opposition's chances are lessened if they don't have the puck. Also back checking deep enough down is very important because defensemen can't be as physical anymore without getting penalized.

[jjgallow]

Does it not seem to you that every goalie is having these types of games ?

 

Technically, every goalie lets in easy ones, yes.  Could Ramo and Hiller's performance be better explained by a league-wide shift of focus from defence to offence? 

 

Maybe.  It is true that their ranking is roughly the same (Ramo is currently 54th, similar to last year):

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?reportType=season&report=goaliesummary&season=20152016&gameType=2&sort=savePctg&aggregate=0&pos=G

 

But, 54th was NEVER good enough.  Ever.   It wasn't last year either.  And as the league changes, our goaltending shortcomings are costing us a far greater number of goals.

 

Maybe a more appropriate way of putting it:

 

 

The shortcomings of our goaltending are more apparent this year than last, and have a greater impact.     We were extremely lucky to do as well last year as we did, with the goaltending we had.   This year, it's having a far more realistic impact.

 

That is why so many of us wanted the Flames to actually Play our prospects more last year, so that, this year, they wouldn't be prospects.   And we wouldn't have to have perpetual roadblocks to our success like this.   But moving forward, we need to do something.  And that isn't going to be a perpetual rotation of Hiller/Ramo.   

[kehatch]

Performances from other bottom teams in the NHL (most common goalie shown):

• Edmonton, Talbot: GAA 3.09, SV% .890
• Columbus, Bobrovsky: GAA 3.34, SV% .891
• Toronto, Reimer: GAA 2.30, SV% .925
• Anaheim, Anderson: GAA 2.33, SV% .924
• Carolina, Ward: GAA 2.52, SV% .898
• Philly, Mason: GAA 3.37, SV% .895
• Colorado, Varlamov: GAA 3.26, SV% .890
• Calgary, Ramo: GAA 3.36, SV% .894

So there is a case to be made that bad teams lead to bad goalie stats.  I think it is true and part of the reason goalies are voodoo.  That said, our goalies are not off the hook:

1. Most of the teams on the list have a second goalie that is playing fine.  Ramo is the one of the worst on the above list but has the best statistics of any Flames goalie. Gross. 
2. Most of the goalies on that list have played well previously and are having off years.  Our guys have either never been good (Ramo) or haven't been for a long time (Hiller).  
3. Every team on that list has a goalie playing behind a really young or really poor D group.  Our goalies have Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, Wideman, and Russell in front of them.  In the off season most were calling that one of the best D core in the NHL.  Our D didn't just collectively decide to get bad at the same time.  Decent goal tending disguises the mistakes that EVERY D core makes.  All of our mistakes seem to go in amplifying them (and leading to trust issues that cause more mistakes.)

I don't think goal tending is the only issue.  The D aren't playing like they should.  Our PK isn't good.  The coaching has been very questionable this season with predictable 'one trick' systems that other teams can expose.  BUT our goalies are a big part of the problem.  There isn't a weak goal stat, but I am sure we would be leading the NHL in that metric if it did exist.  There also isn't a clutch goal stat, but we would be at the bottom if there was.  

[conundrumed]

We've given up more goals than every other team. Blame everyone, but the goalies take a fair share of that blame or it's just excuses.

One thing I've noticed with Ramo, I know he's scrambly, but he seems to give up on pucks too quickly when he's out of position and he loses sight of the puck. Almost like there is a bit of a delay from him because he thinks it's already in the net.

It's up to the goalie coach to keep him focused and tuned in for 60 minutes, which might be the case with all of our goalies so far.

[travel_dude]

Florida game was pretty bad IMO. The first goak he needs to coral and not give up a rebound and the jagr goal was stoppable as well. Routine? Maybe not but it was one you expect your goalie to max. The puck never left the ice and wasn't exactly put in a difficult spot so I put that on Ramo.

So while I agree that over the last 5 or so starts you've consistently seen a better Ramo I do agree with Kehatch that it's very tough to predict what Ramo you are going to get.

 

It's just as hard to predict which defense you are going to see.  The one that gives an opponent 3 or 4 whacks at the puck or left alone in a prime scoring location?  Let the opponent set up camp in the crease?  Let down in the 3rd?

 

And which offense you are going to see.  High-powered or anemic?  

 

Combine good goaltending (no more than 1 stinker), effective defense, and reasonable scoring and we are tough to beat.

[jjgallow]

Performances from other bottom teams in the NHL (most common goalie shown):

• Edmonton, Talbot: GAA 3.09, SV% .890
• Columbus, Bobrovsky: GAA 3.34, SV% .891
• Toronto, Reimer: GAA 2.30, SV% .925
• Anaheim, Anderson: GAA 2.33, SV% .924
• Carolina, Ward: GAA 2.52, SV% .898
• Philly, Mason: GAA 3.37, SV% .895
• Colorado, Varlamov: GAA 3.26, SV% .890
• Calgary, Ramo: GAA 3.36, SV% .894

So there is a case to be made that bad teams lead to bad goalie stats.  I think it is true and part of the reason goalies are voodoo.  That said, our goalies are not off the hook:

1. Most of the teams on the list have a second goalie that is playing fine.  Ramo is the one of the worst on the above list but has the best statistics of any Flames goalie. Gross. 
2. Most of the goalies on that list have played well previously and are having off years.  Our guys have either never been good (Ramo) or haven't been for a long time (Hiller).  
3. Every team on that list has a goalie playing behind a really young or really poor D group.  Our goalies have Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, Wideman, and Russell in front of them.  In the off season most were calling that one of the best D core in the NHL.  Our D didn't just collectively decide to get bad at the same time.  Decent goal tending disguises the mistakes that EVERY D core makes.  All of our mistakes seem to go in amplifying them (and leading to trust issues that cause more mistakes.)

I don't think goal tending is the only issue.  The D aren't playing like they should.  Our PK isn't good.  The coaching has been very questionable this season with predictable 'one trick' systems that other teams can expose.  BUT our goalies are a big part of the problem.  There isn't a weak goal stat, but I am sure we would be leading the NHL in that metric if it did exist.  There also isn't a clutch goal stat, but we would be at the bottom if there was.  

 

 

Great post, fantastic.  It can be very difficult to compare across the league.

 

What shouldn't be difficult though, is comparing within the organization.  And it amazes me how we struggle with it.

 

So Ramo has a good game on friday (very rare these days), and immediately, people want Ortio sent down.

 

Then, Ramo has another bad/average game, which is more typical of his play.

 

 

Ortio, on the other hand, in my opinion has only had one or two bad games this year, compared with about 10 very good games last year.  Basically, he's done well whenever he hasn't been dropped in cold.

 

We can watch Ramo or Hiller flounder game after game after game.  Patiently.  And they have one good game, and ...everything's better.

 

Ortio can have good game after good game after good game.   Then he's not played for months, dropped in cold, and has one or two bad games.    And....he's banished.

 

Ah well.

[tincup1]

I thought Ramo played a very good game tonight and seems to be getting stronger.  No reason to go away from him now.

[jjgallow]

I thought Ramo played a very good game tonight and seems to be getting stronger.  No reason to go away from him now.

 

I'm surprised, actually....those three goals in two minutes were Not good, imho.

 

Two of them, Ramo was flopping around on the ground.  And one of them, he was beat high-glove.

 

All of them, were the type that Ortio's been accused of recently.  It was as if someone had the book on Ramo that he goes down early, and to shoot high.

 

Yet when Ramo behaves this way, the reaction is the exact opposite of when Ortio does it.

 

If Ortio let in three that fast on the high side, we'd have already traded or waived him.   

[tincup1]

I'm surprised, actually....those three goals in two minutes were Not good, imho.

 

Two of them, Ramo was flopping around on the ground.  And one of them, he was beat high-glove.

 

All of them, were the type that Ortio's been accused of recently.  It was as if someone had the book on Ramo that he goes down early, and to shoot high.

 

Yet when Ramo behaves this way, the reaction is the exact opposite of when Ortio does it.

 

If Ortio let in three that fast on the high side, we'd have already traded or waived him.   

 

The second goal he should have had.  I thought the other two were not his fault.  I think he had a good night overall.

[travel_dude]

Great post, fantastic.  It can be very difficult to compare across the league.

 

What shouldn't be difficult though, is comparing within the organization.  And it amazes me how we struggle with it.

 

So Ramo has a good game on friday (very rare these days), and immediately, people want Ortio sent down.

 

Then, Ramo has another bad/average game, which is more typical of his play.

 

 

Ortio, on the other hand, in my opinion has only had one or two bad games this year, compared with about 10 very good games last year.  Basically, he's done well whenever he hasn't been dropped in cold.

 

We can watch Ramo or Hiller flounder game after game after game.  Patiently.  And they have one good game, and ...everything's better.

 

Ortio can have good game after good game after good game.   Then he's not played for months, dropped in cold, and has one or two bad games.    And....he's banished.

 

Ah well.

 

Four good games last season, followed by 2 losses (4 GA, .636SA%.  5 GA .773SA%).

Two games this season (4GA .883SA%.  6GA .806SA% though 1 was an EN).

Not exactly awe inspiring.

 

He needs playing time.  There doesn't appear to be a good time to start a goalie that hasn't shown anything since almost a year ago.

Hartley is trying to win, so does he take a chance on a goalie that has done nothing to prove he is a reliable option?  Does he play Ortio after the defense mostly gave the game away?  Only two games this week.  NJD and CHI.  

 

I'm not saying it's right or fair, just what the coach is doing.  The time for giving him a few games in a row is probably passed.  If Hiller comes back in a week, then BT decides on the body of work or future value.  My preference is to waive Hiller or get him to play in the AHL for a week or so.  Mistake to have him here at the start of the season with two other NHL goalies.