Goaltending

[420since1974]

I'm not conflicted.

 

Hiller has his faults but he is steadier than Ramo.

[conundrumed]

 

Start your vet opening night Hartley, you have 3 goalies.

If your vet gets burned, so be it.

I didn't like that he started Ramo over Hiller, regardless of whatever "message" he was sending.

Is it safe to say BINGO?

Hiller is our #1 ("a" maybe).

Play Hiller, stable, chance to win.

I do not want Ramo and Berra, err, Ortio running the show.

Hiller plays net and mind games like an NHL goalie.

I can't understand the "but he plays from his knees" attack on him.

Every goalie dares you with something, but you have to put it there.

He stays in his net and takes it up very well.

The nux tried him short side off the hop...nothing. He's played against the Sedin's enough, that stuff matters to me.

 

Many seem good with trading him, I'm steadfast in disagreement.

[Wreckening]

Have to agree. Hiller looks to be more in control in the crease whereas Ramo has happy feet.

 

 

I am a little surprised Ortio hasn't got a start yet.

They've only played 2 games.

 

I knew that Ramo and Hiller would start the season off against the Canucks. Ortio will get his shot against St. Louis I believe, unless Hartley sticks by his you win you play rule.

[xstrike]

Hiller/Ortio for sure. I like Hiller's more stable game. If we try Ortio and the experiment fails, we have a stable guy to go to. Ramo also has an easier contract to trade.

[The_People1]

Hiller has the Canucks number for whatever reason but he can't beat the Ducks and some others whereas Ramo can.

[Wreckening]

Then there's always this.....Who would you rather have mentoring Ortio?

[xstrike]

Hiller has the Canucks number for whatever reason but he can't beat the Ducks and some others whereas Ramo can.

 

Then put Ortio in for those games eh?

 

Then there's always this.....Who would you rather have mentoring Ortio?

Hiller. He's been in the NHL longer and in a starter position for the Ducks.

[Jessemadnote39]

Ramo and Russell 

for

Baptiste and a 2nd? 

[Khrox]

I prefer Ramo over Hiller myself. At the same time, if one of Hiller/Ramo had to go, I would go with Ramo. For no other reason than a differing style in net (Ortio and Ramo play a very similar style, which does rely heavily on their athleticism). 

As for mentoring, I think that isn't as big an issue. Hiller has more experience as a starter (is also a bit older), but Ramo has 4 years experience as a starter in the KHL as  well (and while it isn't the same level as the NHL, is still a pretty tough league). 

[travel_dude]

I prefer Ramo over Hiller myself. At the same time, if one of Hiller/Ramo had to go, I would go with Ramo. For no other reason than a differing style in net (Ortio and Ramo play a very similar style, which does rely heavily on their athleticism). 

As for mentoring, I think that isn't as big an issue. Hiller has more experience as a starter (is also a bit older), but Ramo has 4 years experience as a starter in the KHL as  well (and while it isn't the same level as the NHL, is still a pretty tough league). 

 

I hope a trade comes soon.  I don't like the idea of waiving a goalie, since the one sent down will take games away from Gillies.  He is going to be good, but need to play the bulk of games.  

 

It could be a long month for goalies if Hiller gets on a run or Ortio or Ramo does.  Ramo didn't lose the first game, but the change was needed to spark the team.  They have to know that losing a game for a goalie might mean he is traded or waived.

[tmac70]

As the coach has a say in the matter of goal tending Ortio is 3rd on the charts. Hiller plays a more stable game than Ramo, Ramo has more experience than Ortio. Is Ortio our future starter, I don't think so, I believe our future starter just had a shutout in Stockton. Ortio will never be a starting goalie for this team, backup at best. We shall see where Gillies stits after a few more AHL starts, the picture may get really clear

[Wreckening]

As the coach has a say in the matter of goal tending Ortio is 3rd on the charts. Hiller plays a more stable game than Ramo, Ramo has more experience than Ortio. Is Ortio our future starter, I don't think so, I believe our future starter just had a shutout in Stockton. Ortio will never be a starting goalie for this team, backup at best. We shall see where Gillies stits after a few more AHL starts, the picture may get really clear

I don't think the Flames can wait that long to be honest tmac. Yes, you're right when it comes to experience but I don't think you can let that interfere with Ortio's development. The only way to get experience is to actually play in games. It's clear that the Flames can't carry 3 tenders for the entire season so something has to give.

 

Ortio may not be our future starter but we cannot say that for sure until we see what we have in him. Personally, and I said this before, Ortio should have at least got the first 5 starts so that the Flames could evaluate him. We know what we have in Hiller and Ramo. The problem lies in what we do when it comes to assignments. Sending any of the three to Stockton takes time away from Gillies and that's not conducive to developing goalies.

 

The solution is to find a trading partner for either Ramo or Hiller. Personally I think it should be Ramo who gets traded the more I think about it. The Flames may have to take their lumps in a trade but I think you have to settle the goaltending situation sooner rather than later.

[tmac70]

I don't think the Flames can wait that long to be honest tmac. Yes, you're right when it comes to experience but I don't think you can let that interfere with Ortio's development. The only way to get experience is to actually play in games. It's clear that the Flames can't carry 3 tenders for the entire season so something has to give.

 

Ortio may not be our future starter but we cannot say that for sure until we see what we have in him. Personally, and I said this before, Ortio should have at least got the first 5 starts so that the Flames could evaluate him. We know what we have in Hiller and Ramo. The problem lies in what we do when it comes to assignments. Sending any of the three to Stockton takes time away from Gillies and that's not conducive to developing goalies.

 

The solution is to find a trading partner for either Ramo or Hiller. Personally I think it should be Ramo who gets traded the more I think about it. The Flames may have to take their lumps in a trade but I think you have to settle the goaltending situation sooner rather than later.

I agree that it needs to be resolved. Can anyone justify that Ortio gets a start over Hiller or Ramo. BH has said Ortio is 3rd on the charts based off training camp and preseason. Unless we get an injury in a few weeks Ortio will continue to sit. From what I see the odd man out is Ortio. 

[kehatch]

He's the one that'll be sticking around, so we're showcasing the other two to interested parties

From a GM perspective I would like to see Ortio play to see how he is doing. It will help with decision in who to trade.

From a coach perspective you play who ever you think gives you the best chance to win. Hartley at least doesn't have the faith I Ortio he has in the other two.

I though Ortio was really good in the preseason. I would have preferred to see him get a start early.

[jjgallow]

From a GM perspective I would like to see Ortio play to see how he is doing. It will help with decision in who to trade.

From a coach perspective you play who ever you think gives you the best chance to win. Hartley at least doesn't have the faith I Ortio he has in the other two.

I though Ortio was really good in the preseason. I would have preferred to see him get a start early.

 

The Flames have traditionally feared younger goaltenders, and this tradition goes beyond Kipper.  It's been an issue in the organization since Mike Vernon.

 

I don't believe I've seen Any faith placed in any goaltender under 25 years of age, since Vernon.

 

And it's always a shame to see a significant percentage go on to have huge success elsewhere in the NHL.

 

I Really hope we can finally overcome it this year, but you can still clearly see the reluctancy and the struggle in the organization to do so.

 

Giguere, Reto Berra, Fred Brathwaite, Dwayne Roloson, many many others.

 

I am Really looking forward to Ortio stealing the show. And Gillies too.

[kehatch]

Let's not make something out that isn't there. This isn't a systemic issue. Anyone involved in hockey decisions from the past is gone. This organization also has a first year playing starter in the AHL and Ortio is still with the big club.

I think this is simply a situation where a coach has his guys that got them in the playoffs last season and doesn't have any incentive to change things up. But sooner or later the decision will be taken out of his hands (injury or trade) and Ortio will get his starts.

[robrob1974]

How could someone say the Flames have an issue with younger goalies? After Mike Vernon, we placed faith in a Kidd. We gave up early on Roloson, but the team was horrible by then and you can't judge good goaltending on a bad team.

Hell, I actually liked Brathwaite, Roloson, and Tabby. They weren't that great. But the team was bad.

Good goalies goalies get lit up on bad teams. Great goalies hide flaws, good teams hide flaws in goalies all the same.

[jjgallow]

Let's not make something out that isn't there. This isn't a systemic issue. Anyone involved in hockey decisions from the past is gone. 

 

not entirely true.   It is definitely a historical issue, which is all I claimed.   It is my Hope that it isn't a current systemic issue but every time I see Ortio Not start....I wonder.   He was ready last year, imho.  And the reason Gillies is a first-year starter this year, imho, is because he was also held back last year.  I could be wrong.  by the time we know for sure, this will all be ancient history.  and if we go by history....

[jjgallow]

How could someone say the Flames have an issue with younger goalies? After Mike Vernon, we placed faith in a Kidd. 

 

omg....I forgot, lol.  You know...you're right.

 

but ... you also may have explained, at the same time, why we've been so unsure about younger goalies....

[Kulstad]

not entirely true.   It is definitely a historical issue, which is all I claimed.   It is my Hope that it isn't a current systemic issue but every time I see Ortio Not start....I wonder.   He was ready last year, imho.  And the reason Gillies is a first-year starter this year, imho, is because he was also held back last year.  I could be wrong.  by the time we know for sure, this will all be ancient history.  and if we go by history....

 

Dude....there's only been 2 games.  And there's 3 goalies.  You can't put 2 goalies in net at once.  Give it some time.  If, after maybe 10 games, Ortio hasn't even seen the bench as a backup, then maybe there'd be something to be concerned about, but only maybe.

[kehatch]

not entirely true. It is definitely a historical issue, which is all I claimed. It is my Hope that it isn't a current systemic issue but every time I see Ortio Not start....I wonder. He was ready last year, imho. And the reason Gillies is a first-year starter this year, imho, is because he was also held back last year. I could be wrong. by the time we know for sure, this will all be ancient history. and if we go by history....

Occam's Razer and all of that. What is the simplist explanation? That the coach, in the first two games, started the guys he is familiar with and had last season? Or that there is a systemic organizational feer of young goalies that has persisted through multiple GMs and coaches?

[jjgallow]

Dude....there's only been 2 games.  And there's 3 goalies.  You can't put 2 goalies in net at once.  Give it some time.  If, after maybe 10 games, Ortio hasn't even seen the bench as a backup, then maybe there'd be something to be concerned about, but only maybe.

 

You have two more posts before you reach 2000.

 

One of them could be used responding to this:

 

Occam's Razer and all of that. What is the simplist explanation? That the coach, in the first two games, started the guys he is familiar with and had last season? Or that there is a systemic organizational feer of young goalies that has persisted through multiple GMs and coaches?

 

Occam's Razor only applies to competing hypothesis.  It could be both.

[MAC331]

The Flames have traditionally feared younger goaltenders, and this tradition goes beyond Kipper.  It's been an issue in the organization since Mike Vernon.

 

I don't believe I've seen Any faith placed in any goaltender under 25 years of age, since Vernon.

 

And it's always a shame to see a significant percentage go on to have huge success elsewhere in the NHL.

 

I Really hope we can finally overcome it this year, but you can still clearly see the reluctancy and the struggle in the organization to do so.

 

Giguere, Reto Berra, Fred Brathwaite, Dwayne Roloson, many many others.

 

I am Really looking forward to Ortio stealing the show. And Gillies too.

How old were Giguere and Kidd when they were here ?

[420since1974]

Trevor Kidd started in the Flames organization as a first round pick in 1990 (18 years old).

He stayed with the Flames until the end of 1996/1997 (6 years/177 NHL games) when he was traded to Hartford for Andrew Cassels and J S Giguere.

 

J S Giguere was with the Flames organization from 1997/1998 (20 years old) until June 10, 2000 (4 years/15 NHL games) when he was traded to Anaheim for a 2nd round draft pick.

 

That pick eventually ended up with Washington who chose Matt Pettinger.

I am unable to find what/who Calgary received in return.

[kehatch]

Occam's Razor only applies to competing hypothesis. It could be both.

Considering the coach wasn't part of the historical issues and he is the one making the decision, yes they are competing hypothesis. But that fact refutes you hypothesis (aka conspiracy theory) entirely anyway.

I don't like the fact that Ortio hasn't started yet. I don't like the fact that the Flames are carrying three goalies. If Ortio is traded, waived, doesn't get future starts, or if they carry 3 goalies long term then I will be concerned. But it's too early to be crying wolf. Using past history of a different of a different regime to justify the cry is silly.