Goaltending

[7wit]

On 2018-10-17 at 0:28 PM, travel_dude said:

 

No depate there.  We took a two year risk on Smith without the full cap hit.  

It's been good and bad.

About what you should expect for that type of solution.

 

There are some potential starters out there that may be available.  May have to pay quite a lot for that too.

Bob is going to cost too much.

Schneider hasn't looked good recently.  Is a rebound even possible.

Darling is no longer a darling.  Maybe he isn't anything special.

Varly has shown to be a good goalie over the years, is a pending UFA, and could be replaced by Grubauer by the end of the year.

$5.9m currently.  Would likely command $6m+ for a short term deal.

Will Dubnyk be available? $4.33m for 2 more years.

 

Just some thought.  Don't know if there are any backups currently out there that we could swoop in on.  Washington may decide to move on from Samsonov.  I doubt it.  Slow start, but he 's just adjusting.

 

 

Kincaid from NJ may be a good acquisition for next year. He’s proven he can play in the league and won’t cost you as much as a Varlamov or Smith if he’s available.

[YounGuns]

49 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

He totally froze Stone a few games back with a lateral pass. Could tell Stone was completely not expecting it. Led to a goal against and Stone being blamed.

At any level of hockey, when you're goalie is handling the puck, there needs to be consistency. Not, "uh-oh, what's he going to do"?

He may have a fwd trying for the long bomb, but when he doesn't, everyone's just kinda frozen.

See I see it much differently.  You know he's going to come out and play it.  The first few games the players were re-acclimatizing to it for sure, but now they seem to have a good grasp on it.  This is Smith's game, let's not turn him into a goalie that he isn't.  He likes playing the puck, he says it helps him in the game, and every D men when asked about it say they love it.  Sure, they are not going to throw their goalie under the bus even if they didn't like it, but it sure sounds genuine to me.  The coaches seem to like it, Gully mentioned numerous times, Peters has mentioned it as a benefit to our group that Smith can play it, our GM loves the fact that Smith can play it, and we saw last night, he can play the puck well.

 

I would say there is consistency with Smith.  That's why I mentioned it wasn't my concern with him.  What's my concern is last year there wasn't consistency with Rittich, because he would at times try to play the puck, and at times leave it.  But Smith?  He always just plays it, and plays it well.  It certainly will cost us a few goals against over the course of the season (already has cost us one for sure), but it will also reduce wear and tear on the defense, increase speed of transition, and throw a wrench into the gears for any team that leans heavily on their forecheck. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, YounGuns said:

See I see it much differently.  You know he's going to come out and play it.  The first few games the players were re-acclimatizing to it for sure, but now they seem to have a good grasp on it.  This is Smith's game, let's not turn him into a goalie that he isn't.  He likes playing the puck, he says it helps him in the game, and every D men when asked about it say they love it.  Sure, they are not going to throw their goalie under the bus even if they didn't like it, but it sure sounds genuine to me.  The coaches seem to like it, Gully mentioned numerous times, Peters has mentioned it as a benefit to our group that Smith can play it, our GM loves the fact that Smith can play it, and we saw last night, he can play the puck well.

 

What a coach says out loud can be the public face only.  But, I would add that what Smith does about 50%+ of the time is good.  Stop the shots around the back of the net.  Great.  Freeze the puck until the D-men get back.  Awesome.  Clear along the glass?  Yikes.  Up the middle?  Double Yikes.  Stickhandle in traffic behind the net?  Face palm.

 

What is the use of a goalie giving the puck away as soon as he gets it?  We complain about the D-men making 100 foot passes, or firing it along the boards when there is zero pressure.  How is this any different?

 

The coach didn't call out Smith for some of the D-zone play, but he was implying there were issues.  A lot of them were created by over-handling the puck.

 

 

[Cowtownguy]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

At least it's not Patrick Roy stick handling to Center ice.  But ya, let the D play the puck.

Or Mike Palmateer. 

[robrob74]

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What a coach says out loud can be the public face only.  But, I would add that what Smith does about 50%+ of the time is good.  Stop the shots around the back of the net.  Great.  Freeze the puck until the D-men get back.  Awesome.  Clear along the glass?  Yikes.  Up the middle?  Double Yikes.  Stickhandle in traffic behind the net?  Face palm.

 

What is the use of a goalie giving the puck away as soon as he gets it?  We complain about the D-men making 100 foot passes, or firing it along the boards when there is zero pressure.  How is this any different?

 

The coach didn't call out Smith for some of the D-zone play, but he was implying there were issues.  A lot of them were created by over-handling the puck.

 

 

 

I think this is why I felt the Nashville game was cleaner. I didn't see as many turnovers in that game as last night's game. Even though Nashville had the puck more in it, the Flames weren't as all over the place in their defence. I felt that last night they were a bit more. Not much more. I know others don't agree with my assessment of the Nashville game. 

 

In games against playoff teams or better, we're going to get about half or more pressure against us. It's going to look that way. 

 

Last night was one of the worst games watching Smith play the puck. I agree with you about playing it when there aren't many obvious options - hold it in safe keeping until there's another option.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think this is why I felt the Nashville game was cleaner. I didn't see as many turnovers in that game as last night's game. Even though Nashville had the puck more in it, the Flames weren't as all over the place in their defence. I felt that last night they were a bit more. Not much more. I know others don't agree with my assessment of the Nashville game. 

 

In games against playoff teams or better, we're going to get about half or more pressure against us. It's going to look that way. 

 

Last night was one of the worst games watching Smith play the puck. I agree with you about playing it when there aren't many obvious options - hold it in safe keeping until there's another option.

 

There are a couple of times I don;t mind Smith clearing the puck.  One is during a 3v3 OT or a 4v4 regular game.  Only because there is more open ice.

But, I'm only okay with the 1st scenario if the forward is wide open.  A risky play in OT is basically a turnover turned offense in the making.  You don't give up possession in OT unless you have nothing else left.  I would drop it back to the goalie and change the players.  AT worst, he can freeze it for a whistle.

 

The Nashville game was a lot of outside shots.  I can;t really remember it now, but I felt it was a good game with a lot of time for Nashville.  Chances were pretty lopsided for the Preds in the 2nd and 3rd.  We did kill a 2 minute 5v3.  Smith was dialed in.  Some of his saves were just lucky but others were great reactions saves.

[kehatch]

Is it too early to resurrect the summers posts about goal being our biggest risk? Smith has been terrible. Rittich has been good, but he was last season as well until he had to carry the starter load. I don't know what's out there, but its past time to find an upgrade in net. 

[Thebrewcrew]

Is it too early to ask if Smith is having a Hiller-type season like we saw in the 15-16 season? Where he went from a solid goalie in 14-15, to a complete tire fire in 15-16. Hiller's play that year completely cost us a playoff berth that season, and I'd hate to see the same happen again

[robrob74]

I feel like our team play costs us a playoff birth. We expect our goalies to play like Price, Quick (in his prime) or Gibson. Team D sucks and the high danger chances kill us more. The goalies get the short end of the stick because it is the stat that shines most. 

 

Unless we get an elite goalie, that stat is going to look as bad no matter who we get because the kind of chances we give up cost us the most. 

 

Not saying the goaltending isnt bad, just that regardless of any average goalie we get, we’ll get the same results. That goalies’ stats might look better with other teams, but with us, they’ll get lit.

[kehatch]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I feel like our team play costs us a playoff birth. We expect our goalies to play like Price, Quick (in his prime) or Gibson. Team D sucks and the high danger chances kill us more. The goalies get the short end of the stick because it is the stat that shines most. 

 

Unless we get an elite goalie, that stat is going to look as bad no matter who we get because the kind of chances we give up cost us the most. 

 

Not saying the goaltending isnt bad, just that regardless of any average goalie we get, we’ll get the same results. That goalies’ stats might look better with other teams, but with us, they’ll get lit.

 

Sorry, but no.  That is the type of excuses we heard all summer.  I totally agree that the team in front of the goalie hasn't been particularly good for a bunch of games, especially recently.  But the Flames haven't been the worst team in the NHL and Rittich hasn't pooped the bed like Smith has.  Smith has been absolutely sensationally dreadful.  Full stop.  

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Sorry, but no.  That is the type of excuses we heard all summer.  I totally agree that the team in front of the goalie hasn't been particularly good for a bunch of games, especially recently.  But the Flames haven't been the worst team in the NHL and Rittich hasn't pooped the bed like Smith has.  Smith has been absolutely sensationally dreadful.  Full stop.  

 

I never said he wasn’t. I still think the team had Satoshi Nakamoto the bed just as much or more. We are lucky to have 2 wins more than we do.

[robrob74]

This team has been good 50% of the time and bad 50% of the time. 

 

Rittich stole one.

Smith hasn’t been good enough to steal anything. He’s been bad, no doubt, but I am not willing to give him nor the team a pass.

 

what I was saying was we expect our goalie to play lights out. He does and we Satoshi Nakamoto the bed and lose 3-2. But the goalie is stellar. Sure if smith was in it could be like tonight, but we still haven’t scored tonight so that is a mute point. We didn’t score enough when the goalie could’ve stole two in a row for us. 

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

This team has been good 50% of the time and bad 50% of the time. 

 

Rittich stole one.

Smith hasn’t been good enough to steal anything. He’s been bad, no doubt, but I am not willing to give him nor the team a pass.

 

what I was saying was we expect our goalie to play lights out. He does and we Satoshi Nakamoto the bed and lose 3-2. But the goalie is stellar. Sure if smith was in it could be like tonight, but we still haven’t scored tonight so that is a mute point. We didn’t score enough when the goalie could’ve stole two in a row for us. 

 

Tonight marks a low point in the season.  Hopefully the lowest.

What bothers me the most is no matter how we play, Smith is letting in WAY TOO MANY GOALS.

Rittich lets in two goals in 2 minutes against the AVS.  A very good team that doesn't get many props.

He shuts the door and we steal 2 points.

His next start, he's shelled.  Every shot is dealt with the way you expect a starter to, but he made the shooters look dumb.

His next start is well deserved and we lose momentum after a bad peanlty.

He still only lets in 3.  Aside from getting the tying goal, the team responded in the 3rd.

His rebound control is very good and he has the reflexes to make two saves in a row.

 

No, I am not suggesting he is the new starter here.  I don;t think he can handle the workload.  

Smith's hot start from last season is nowhere to be found.

I don't know how you can continue this cruel experiment of trotting out a 37 old goalie that doesn't look like he's tracking the puck most nights.

He lets in 3, the game is over.

That's not because we aren't scoring.  It's because that's not the last one.

 

To answer Kehatch's question, I think you have no choice to look out there.

If Rittich can keep us in games, there may be a goalie that can come in here and do the same as a starter.

It's not too early to pull the plug.

It's also not nearly too late to run with a new starter.  All we need is a mini streak to give the team back some confidence.

Confidence that when you score a goal, you aren't digging the puck out of your net 2 minutes later.

 

[robrob74]

31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Tonight marks a low point in the season.  Hopefully the lowest.

What bothers me the most is no matter how we play, Smith is letting in WAY TOO MANY GOALS.

Rittich lets in two goals in 2 minutes against the AVS.  A very good team that doesn't get many props.

He shuts the door and we steal 2 points.

His next start, he's shelled.  Every shot is dealt with the way you expect a starter to, but he made the shooters look dumb.

His next start is well deserved and we lose momentum after a bad peanlty.

He still only lets in 3.  Aside from getting the tying goal, the team responded in the 3rd.

His rebound control is very good and he has the reflexes to make two saves in a row.

 

No, I am not suggesting he is the new starter here.  I don;t think he can handle the workload.  

Smith's hot start from last season is nowhere to be found.

I don't know how you can continue this cruel experiment of trotting out a 37 old goalie that doesn't look like he's tracking the puck most nights.

He lets in 3, the game is over.

That's not because we aren't scoring.  It's because that's not the last one.

 

To answer Kehatch's question, I think you have no choice to look out there.

If Rittich can keep us in games, there may be a goalie that can come in here and do the same as a starter.

It's not too early to pull the plug.

It's also not nearly too late to run with a new starter.  All we need is a mini streak to give the team back some confidence.

Confidence that when you score a goal, you aren't digging the puck out of your net 2 minutes later.

 

 

I am not really saying I don’t agree to both you or Kehatch, just saying the team play is just as much a part of it. 

[The_People1]

If our goaltending is going to allow 4+ goals every second game, then this is going to be a long season. 

[kehatch]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I am not really saying I don’t agree to both you or Kehatch, just saying the team play is just as much a part of it. 

 

As we have seen in Montreal, Colorado, even in Calgary, if a goalie is great it makes the team look better. The opposite is true when the goalie is terrible. 

 

I don't think the Flames would look anywhere near as bad if Smith was making some saves. But just about every mistake goes in the net. 

 

That said, recently the team is struggling. Gio is slowing down, Brodie hasn't returned to form, Hamonic has been out or meh, Stone is Stone, and our forwards have shown zero commitment to defence, at least the top and third line. We were better the first 5 or so games though and goal sunk us when Smith was in the net. 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

As we have seen in Montreal, Colorado, even in Calgary, if a goalie is great it makes the team look better. The opposite is true when the goalie is terrible. 

 

I don't think the Flames would look anywhere near as bad if Smith was making some saves. But just about every mistake goes in the net. 

 

That said, recently the team is struggling. Gio is slowing down, Brodie hasn't returned to form, Hamonic has been out or meh, Stone is Stone, and our forwards have shown zero commitment to defence, at least the top and third line. We were better the first 5 or so games though and goal sunk us when Smith was in the net. 

 

All you have to do is look up North to see the impact of bad goaltending.

Last year, the Oilers had 2 good defencemen, and one of them missed extended time, while the other was "injured".

They had a decent two line punch.

I think they were scored on a record number of times on the first shot.

Talbot let in goals like it was a sale on goals.

 

The Oilers were not a good team last year, but their goaltending sunk them more often than not.  We are seeing the exact same thing here.  Smith overhandling the puck.  Smith bumping rebounds to the slot.  Smith unable to make two saves on the same play.  Smith giving up a "perfect" goal.  

 

We are going nowhere unless something big changes in his game.  He's not athletic.  He face surfs to make a save and leaves the net open.  He plays far back in the net and gets beat high.  His 5 hole is bigger than the Grand Canyon.  He's the starter, according to BP.  I wouldn't say anything else in public.  Can;t evaluate the goalie in a game like that.  True, because he didn't make enough saves to see if he has any style.

 

There are too many games where you know when you are sunk.  Goal #1 set us back, but #3 signaled to the team we were never getting close.  Excuse me if I'm focused on one player.  Just here.  This position is the one that kills us.  Defense, we can sit the useless player or try some options to get better results.  Forwards, we have so many options.  SOme have worked for a game or two.  Some are building and will be good.  Nets, we are in shambles.  We g=have a capable backup that should not play more than 30 games and a starter that is in a contract year looking like he should retire to Florida.

 

Here's my dilemma.

You probably should start Rittich against TO.

But we need him for BUF.

And Smith shouldn;t start against WASH.  

The fans will not tolerate a poor game at home.  Not after that debacle.  

[cross16]

Flames are now the worst team per game in terms of high danger chances given up.  

 

Has Smith been bad, absolutely but at the same time when I look game by game i'm not seeing many games where you could pin the L on goaltending. For the most part I think Smith is just making bad games look horrible. For example I don't think last night should have actually wound up as bad as it did based on game play but Smith turned that into a joke. 

 

Now is it affecting their confidence? Very possible and that's why I think it's probably wise for Rittich to be given the net. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Flames are now the worst team per game in terms of high danger chances given up.  

 

Has Smith been bad, absolutely but at the same time when I look game by game i'm not seeing many games where you could pin the L on goaltending. For the most part I think Smith is just making bad games look horrible. For example I don't think last night should have actually wound up as bad as it did based on game play but Smith turned that into a joke. 

 

Now is it affecting their confidence? Very possible and that's why I think it's probably wise for Rittich to be given the net. 

 

I think it's a snowball effect.  You leak that many that quickly and the team starts taking too many chances all at once.

One goal in a period, and the team plays harder and they tend to start shutting down the other team.

Two or three becomes desperation.

 

Would Rittich have made a difference last night?  Of course he would have.  A win?  Maybe not.

Smith generates multiple high danger chances, unless he lets in the first shot.

Rittich is more apt to freeze the puck,  At least, that's how I see it.

 

So, the question becomes can this team play in front of Smith?  If two goals scored n a period is all the team can manage without turning into a tire fire, then we have a problem.  Smith of early last season is nowhere to be seen.  Now is when we need that.

[MAC331]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think it's a snowball effect.  You leak that many that quickly and the team starts taking too many chances all at once.

One goal in a period, and the team plays harder and they tend to start shutting down the other team.

Two or three becomes desperation.

 

Would Rittich have made a difference last night?  Of course he would have.  A win?  Maybe not.

Smith generates multiple high danger chances, unless he lets in the first shot.

Rittich is more apt to freeze the puck,  At least, that's how I see it.

 

So, the question becomes can this team play in front of Smith?  If two goals scored n a period is all the team can manage without turning into a tire fire, then we have a problem.  Smith of early last season is nowhere to be seen.  Now is when we need that.

We don't have a team yet because the coach hasn't settled on who will play with who, it creates the confusion we have currently. Peters needs to make some decisions and he better get it right.

[JTech780]

Mike Smith starts tomorrow. Would have to think that another poor outing by Smith tomorrow would result in Rittich being given a run of games.

 

 

[JTech780]

I think we are going to start to see a huge premium put on goaltending. By that I mean that the cost to acquire top end starting goaltending is going to go up significantly and teams are going to be much more reluctant to give up goalies. 

 

I think this will be especially true when the Seattle expansion happens. 

 

As it stands right now there are barely enough true number 1 goalies to cover half of the team's in the league. The rest of the team's are getting by with average to below average goaltenders. So if you are a team that has a starter and a backup the possibly projects to be a starter, why would get rid of a goalie unless you absolutely had too.

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Mike Smith starts tomorrow. Would have to think that another poor outing by Smith tomorrow would result in Rittich being given a run of games.

 

 

I hope as the Coach he has been learning lots about his team and not leaving it until tomorrow. He needs to smarten up as much as anyone.

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I think we are going to start to see a huge premium put on goaltending. By that I mean that the cost to acquire top end starting goaltending is going to go up significantly and teams are going to be much more reluctant to give up goalies. 

 

I think this will be especially true when the Seattle expansion happens. 

 

As it stands right now there are barely enough true number 1 goalies to cover half of the team's in the league. The rest of the team's are getting by with average to below average goaltenders. So if you are a team that has a starter and a backup the possibly projects to be a starter, why would get rid of a goalie unless you absolutely had too.

This is why I have not been overly excited about the thoughts of a SC this season even with our additions. We need answers about the team now in place and especially our Goalie pipeline. Gilles and Parsons are highly touted but we just don't know how good they will be without NHL exposure. Rittich I really like as a back up. I don't think Smith will remain as bad as he has shown so far.

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Mike Smith starts tomorrow. Would have to think that another poor outing by Smith tomorrow would result in Rittich being given a run of games.

 

 

 

I'll give him this, Peters has guts. I get what he is doing but this is a risk I wouldn't take personally.