Goaltending

[Cowtownguy]

Just now, MAC331 said:

Well then as a team you wouldn't deserve to win.

I actually agree with many of your thoughts on the matter. Some of us seem to be writing off Gillies and Rittich before they get much of a chance. We just don't know what we have in those two. I think that I am a little more optimistic about Smith than others. I think he is a pretty good goalie. Most teams are hooped if their #1 goes down.

[Cowtownguy]

I guess my earlier post was a weak joke re: sak, hang, groin. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I actually agree with many of your thoughts on the matter. Some of us seem to be writing off Gillies and Rittich before they get much of a chance. We just don't know what we have in those two. I think that I am a little more optimistic about Smith than others. I think he is a pretty good goalie. Most teams are hooped if their #1 goes down.

If you plan on riding that horse to fatigue we will be hooped but to assume Rittich is not up to the back up task is something he proved wrong last season IMO. If you want someone to become a regular or even a solid back up you have to be willing to build up his game endurance. Gillies could likely do the back up but that isn't what we want him for so let him get the heavier workload in Stockton. If Gilles has anything to prove IMO is that he can remain durable enough to be a regular starting Goalie.

[DirtyDeeds]

12 hours ago, MAC331 said:

So would you not think now would be the time to have a plan that adds to their workloads so they progress through to the next stage of their development. They are only going to gain the necessary experience by actually going through it. I think some need to quit planning to win the SC every season and take measures to advance our future.

Well both Rittich and Gilles had the opportunity to show us they could handle the ball when Smith went down with injury. Both failed. This was their chance to gain the experience and show us they were ready..

 

Same deal with Elliott, Same deal with Johnson, Same deal with Hillar, same deal with Ortio, same deal with Ramo.. They all had their opportunity.. It is what they wait for and want so they can grab the spot and run with it.. Show they are a #1.

[Cowtownguy]

10 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Well both Rittich and Gilles had the opportunity to show us they could handle the ball when Smith went down with injury. Both failed. This was their chance to gain the experience and show us they were ready..

 

Same deal with Elliott, Same deal with Johnson, Same deal with Hillar, same deal with Ortio, same deal with Ramo.. They all had their opportunity.. It is what they wait for and want so they can grab the spot and run with it.. Show they are a #1.

They did get opportunities. The question is whether it was the right time to get those opportunities. I think we know what Rittich is at this point. It sure seemed like something changed in his game as he kept trying to shoot the puck and got burned on it a few times. He should just play his game. Don't try and change him too much. The team lacked confidence when Smith was out, so it generated more pressure on him. I am not willing to write off Gillies yet. It looks like he needs more psychological maturing to be excellent. I have questions about the backups, but I do think that Gillies needs more time. I sure hope we don't screw up at this position again. 

[DirtyDeeds]

1 minute ago, Cowtownguy said:

They did get opportunities. The question is whether it was the right time to get those opportunities. I think we know what Rittich is at this point. It sure seemed like something changed in his game as he kept trying to shoot the puck and got burned on it a few times. He should just play his game. Don't try and change him too much. The team lacked confidence when Smith was out, so it generated more pressure on him. I am not willing to write off Gillies yet. It looks like he needs more psychological maturing to be excellent. I have questions about the backups, but I do think that Gillies needs more time. I sure hope we don't screw up at this position again. 

you can't schedule opportunities. They are what they have become when they happen. if they(Backups) aren't ready when the opportunities come for them then you have to try to judge when it is time to cut bait.

 

Kehatch is right. If they(Gilles and Rittich) are not ready for a #1 if/when Smith goes down our year is screwed. BT should have a better plan and a Plan B than just run with last years combo.

[Cowtownguy]

2 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

you can't schedule opportunities. They are what they have become when they happen. if they(Backups) aren't ready when the opportunities come for them then you have to try to judge when it is time to cut bait.

 

Kehatch is right. If they(Gilles and Rittich) are not ready for a #1 if/when Smith goes down our year is screwed. BT should have a better plan and a Plan B than just run with last years combo.

I agree, but I am not sure what options there are now or what Treliving has sought out. I would like a better backup. Who is out there though? 

[sak22]

4 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

you can't schedule opportunities. They are what they have become when they happen. if they(Backups) aren't ready when the opportunities come for them then you have to try to judge when it is time to cut bait.

 

Kehatch is right. If they(Gilles and Rittich) are not ready for a #1 if/when Smith goes down our year is screwed. BT should have a better plan and a Plan B than just run with last years combo.

I think having this mindset that the season was going as planned then Smith went down, and it all went to Satoshi Nakamotos is wrong.  For starters it is tough to get a read on Gillies, in 3 wins he had 17 goals for, in his 5 regulation 1 OT loss he had 8 goals for.  Tough to win during a stretch when your team averages 1.3 goals for you.  I think it makes things worse when your margin of error for victory is so small.  I feel Rittich and Gillies are given no leash and judged solely on their bad games, yet the guy who got yanked 5 times on home ice gets a free pass just for breaking the Honda curse.

[DirtyDeeds]

18 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I think having this mindset that the season was going as planned then Smith went down, and it all went to Satoshi Nakamotos is wrong.  For starters it is tough to get a read on Gillies, in 3 wins he had 17 goals for, in his 5 regulation 1 OT loss he had 8 goals for.  Tough to win during a stretch when your team averages 1.3 goals for you.  I think it makes things worse when your margin of error for victory is so small.  I feel Rittich and Gillies are given no leash and judged solely on their bad games, yet the guy who got yanked 5 times on home ice gets a free pass just for breaking the Honda curse.

first thing you don't do is judge them on stats. You judge them on play.. win or lose.

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Unless you are there watching a goalie such as Gilles play every game you have no idea what those stats tell you.

 

Do you just say that because you don't know yourself?  I follow the Heat games and people that cover/analyze their play.

So, I do have an idea. 

 

Out of curiosity, what are you basing your opinion of Gillies?  I'm not trashing the kid, just being realistic.  He needs time in the AHL to develop.  He's just not NHL ready.  What we saw in NHL games was what he was like in the AHL.  Show that you play consistently, from start to finish.  Show that he can light it up in the AHL.  Those should be the first steps towards a starter role.

[sak22]

9 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

first thing you don't do is judge them on stats. You judge them on play.. win or lose.

I'm a bit lost on that, as I didn't use his stats I used stats that the team provided him.  Meaning when the team gave him a lot of support he didn't disappoint, when they didn't he generally lost.  Find me a goalie last year, or any year besides maybe the trap era that had a 6 game stretch where they were above .500 and only had 8 goals for.  But I've been saying all along is with better offence we will get better results in wins and losses even if goaltending is on par with last year.  There are elite teams that are on par with us in terms of GA last year, but those teams scored 40 more goals than us.  

[cccsberg]

18 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, we are going to find out what we have in Rittich fairly early in the season.  As for Gillies, I would like to see him develop into a consistent starter in Stockton before we make any kind of move to bring him in.  But that's just me.  We may have no choice.  Rittich may not show up good in camp.  Smith could have a season ending injury.

 

My point about Gillies is that he's been wildly inconsistent in the AHL.  18-14-1 in his first full year.  17-16-3 in his last season.  I won't point to his GAA or his SA%, because that doesn't show enough.  He's won games where he looked really good.  He's lost games where he looked really bad.  Peaks and valleys, but I am more concerned with the valleys.  Need to see that flatten out.  

Agree we need more consistency in them all.

 

One factor I would throw in here is big changes in off-ice personal lives which I believe are huge but rarely get considered.  One of the biggest examples is Byron who got married just around/after we lost him then he buckles down and suddenly he's scoring like crazy and becomes indispensable.  Rittich just got married about a week ago, and Brodie's wife has gotten much better and they have a very recent baby about a month ago as two examples of key payers on the current Flames.  There are probably others too.  When you go from happy go lucky to settling down and playing for more than just yourself it can make a huge difference.  Hmmm, didn't Backlund get married fairly recently too?  Others?

[cccsberg]

17 hours ago, YounGuns said:

 

To be fair to our GMs, they certainly have tried to improve our goalie situation.  MAF "thought" he was being traded to Calgary, only the asking price was reportedly absurd and not worth it, and the trade fell through.  You have to remember, at the time the Penguins were giving up on MAF and were quite happy to expose him in the draft.  Although he is the ultimate team mate, and he's won cups, he also has had several collapses in both the regular season and post season, so he wasn't a "sure thing".  All he did since then was turn in the best season of his already pretty spectacular career, but even he has been a question mark and "gamble" at times.

 

We tried to get Bishop.  He went to LA instead, and then signed with Dallas.  Which in hindsight might have been the best for us.  There were reports he refused to come to Calgary anyways, but by all reports we were trying to get him.

 

Treliving did land one of the best options available in Smith.  Sure he's old, but Treliving knew we needed to do something after not being able to come to terms with Pittsburghs asking price for MAF.

 

And those are just the ones we know of.  Who knows what other conversations have been had with the various GMs around the league.  We'll never know what other "star" goaltender we were close to acquiring, if any.

 

The argument that the team has been gambling is somewhat valid if you're only looking at the results, but star goalies are like star centers or star defensemen...you almost need to draft them and develop them, as they just don't change hands very often and are very hard to come by, so I don't really know what people expect Treliving to do here, other than sell the farm or give away the likes of Tkachuk.  Even when we got Kipper - our last solid goaltender - at the time of the trade he was a nobody.  We hit the jack pot on him, but it's not like we traded for an all star.  We traded for depth pieces, took one of those "gambles" you seem to hate, and we just happened to land a star.

 

Also, it's worth considering that we do have some potential great pieces in Gillies and Parsons that are coming up in the system.  Gillies hasn't proven himself in the NHL yet, but he's still a prospect.  Parsons is continually rated as one of the best goalie prospects in the league, even after last season's less-than-impressive stats.  My point here is that you don't necessarily want to go and sell the farm for a legit number 1 when you could very well have a legit number 1 in the making in your own system already, and all you'd be doing by landing someone else is removing the opportunity for them to showcase their skills in the big league and possibly develop into the player we're trying to find.  Until I know what we have in Gillies or Parsons, I can see Treliving being hesitant to bring in someone for the long term, when he hopes they are our long term...

 

I will admit that goaltending is our biggest question mark going into this season, and could sink what might otherwise be a really promising season.  But I just don't see what other options Treliving has, or who is available.  I am confident that this concern is not lost on Treliving.

Very well said, thanks!

[cccsberg]

9 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

you can't schedule opportunities. They are what they have become when they happen. if they(Backups) aren't ready when the opportunities come for them then you have to try to judge when it is time to cut bait.

 

Kehatch is right. If they(Gilles and Rittich) are not ready for a #1 if/when Smith goes down our year is screwed. BT should have a better plan and a Plan B than just run with last years combo.

No, Kehatch has a point but he is not right.  This is a team game.  Every team could have struggles if their #1 goes down.  Heck, Vegas had to go to goalie #5 last season after injuries, I guess that really killed their season?  NOT!  Assuming Smith will get injured is just as much a foolish thought as assuming to know what our back-ups will do if it happens, or how the team responds if it happens, or assuming no outside relief if it happens.  

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Do you just say that because you don't know yourself?  I follow the Heat games and people that cover/analyze their play.

So, I do have an idea. 

 

Out of curiosity, what are you basing your opinion of Gillies?  I'm not trashing the kid, just being realistic.  He needs time in the AHL to develop.  He's just not NHL ready.  What we saw in NHL games was what he was like in the AHL.  Show that you play consistently, from start to finish.  Show that he can light it up in the AHL.  Those should be the first steps towards a starter role.

I believe I have said the same things about Giles, have I not ? It's good if you have watched him play in his AHL games because as a fan going by unseen wins, losses and higher than desirable GAA is faulty judgement. I would like to see Giles healthy and handle a heavy workload in Stockton to start out the season. Rittich as Smith's back up worked last season and if the plan is to get him more games and rest Smith adequately at time we should alright.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

No, Kehatch has a point but he is not right.  This is a team game.  Every team could have struggles if their #1 goes down.  Heck, Vegas had to go to goalie #5 last season after injuries, I guess that really killed their season?  NOT!  Assuming Smith will get injured is just as much a foolish thought as assuming to know what our back-ups will do if it happens, or how the team responds if it happens, or assuming no outside relief if it happens.  

In reflection on last season our team had a real defeatist attitude during games and after them. I don't think BP will allow that to happen plus we should have better leadership this coming season. We added players such as Neal and Hamonic (should be more settled in) to go with Giordano, Backlund, Tkachuk, Monahan and Smith as our leaders. Many complained  about no identity for last season's team and everyone will have to buy into a change of attitude towards what it takes to be winners.

[cross16]

19 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I get that he has made the attempt. But some of that was intentional. It sounds like Tampa thought they had a deal in place for Bishop but Treliving aborted and went for Elliott instead. Talbot wasn't that expensive, we could have outbid Edmonton.  There have been other opportunities. I get it is hard, but almost 20% of the teams in the NHL have addressed their goal tending issues via trade since Treliving became the GM.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like our GM and I think he has done some very good things.  Elliott was a reasonable shot at fixing goalie and Smith was a decent pick up last off season.  And I don't think  we are necessarily doomed in net, it is possible things could work out.  I just think there is a very real chance they don't work out and ,  If the season is lost because of goal tending that will be an unfortunate outcome and it very well could (and probably should) cost Treliving his job.  

 

Depend on what you choose to believe Treliving did not "abort" trying to acquire Bishop it was a decision made above his head. He also had a deal for Andersson and Jones in place and in the case of Andersson Ducks choose to move him out of the division (i've heard the Flames had the better offer) and Jones fell apart after the Flames thought it was already done. You can potentially criticize him for Talbot but at the same time Talbot sunk the OIlers season last year so I think it's fair to question him as an upgrade or an answer. Guess we'll see it.

 

Treliving has been in on pretty much all the big goalie movement since he's been a GM and for mostly reasons outside his control it hasn't worked out. To hang that all on him is unfair IMO. 

[conundrumed]

It's definitely a double edged sword.

I think it's a no-win situation, and I don't mean that in a negative.

You have to give your guys a shot. Bringing in a safety net still offers no guarantees.

It's a rock and a hard place.

We are at the point of giving Rittich a vote of confidence and hope it's the right thing.

Bringing in another Eddie Lack shouldn't be the message at this point.

We have to know what we have, and you'll never know if you're never going to show some faith.

[MAC331]

12 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Well both Rittich and Gilles had the opportunity to show us they could handle the ball when Smith went down with injury. Both failed. This was their chance to gain the experience and show us they were ready..

 

Same deal with Elliott, Same deal with Johnson, Same deal with Hillar, same deal with Ortio, same deal with Ramo.. They all had their opportunity.. It is what they wait for and want so they can grab the spot and run with it.. Show they are a #1.

So in your mind wins are the only success that counts ? Are you not one that complains about how we don't develop players properly ? How do you expect these two to progress if you take away the slots they need in order to achieve valued playing time ? I thought there were times the majority of their play was brilliant and the fundamentals sound. Let Rittich get back in there now that he knows the environment. He doesn't have much to learn by going back to Stockton. Gilles on the other hand needs to prove to himself that he can stay healthy and take on a regular's workload. This is the only way we will find out if he can be a regular option for replacing Smith.

[cross16]

22 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

 

You have to give your guys a shot. Bringing in a safety net still offers no guarantees.

It's a rock and a hard place.

 

 

100%

 

I get people view this as risky and I get people are upset about it. All of it is valid I don't disagree people have a right to be concerned about the goaltending. The part I don't understand is getting so upset and criticizing the GM when this off season offered no such guarantees. It was a bad FA crop and very little in the way of trade possibilities so for me the argument of he should have addressed it because this plan is too risky doesn't fly. Plan was risky either way so better, IMO, to do it with your guys. 

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

Depend on what you choose to believe Treliving did not "abort" trying to acquire Bishop it was a decision made above his head. He also had a deal for Andersson and Jones in place and in the case of Andersson Ducks choose to move him out of the division (i've heard the Flames had the better offer) and Jones fell apart after the Flames thought it was already done. You can potentially criticize him for Talbot but at the same time Talbot sunk the OIlers season last year so I think it's fair to question him as an upgrade or an answer. Guess we'll see it.

 

Treliving has been in on pretty much all the big goalie movement since he's been a GM and for mostly reasons outside his control it hasn't worked out. To hang that all on him is unfair IMO. 

I agree cross, that's a hard debate to have. You don't have the pick of the litter, because every one is in on it.

One thing I'd like is a new goalie coach, which is something he can control.

When I watch the work with goalies at camp, I find it lame. Take shots on him, that's pretty lame. "Okay let's work on your blocker clears", lame.

There's a lot of downtime with the goalies.

No reason. "okay butterfly, how many can you do in 2 minutes? When your gloves start dropping because you're tired, I'm ringing shots around your ears".

Skate them hard. They have legs.

Make the whole team go hard. The point is to make them better, not privileged

I think we're mentally soft because we that's how we teach it.

It doesn't work..

[kehatch]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Depend on what you choose to believe Treliving did not "abort" trying to acquire Bishop it was a decision made above his head. He also had a deal for Andersson and Jones in place and in the case of Andersson Ducks choose to move him out of the division (i've heard the Flames had the better offer) and Jones fell apart after the Flames thought it was already done. You can potentially criticize him for Talbot but at the same time Talbot sunk the OIlers season last year so I think it's fair to question him as an upgrade or an answer. Guess we'll see it.

 

Treliving has been in on pretty much all the big goalie movement since he's been a GM and for mostly reasons outside his control it hasn't worked out. To hang that all on him is unfair IMO. 

 

The fish that got away doesn't make the fisherman.

 

We don't know what happened behind the scenes, that includes the ones mentioned above but also other opportunities. I would think part of the issue is that we have used our assets elsewhere limiting what we had to make a deal (some of it wasted on things like the Lazar trade.)

 

At the end of the day Treliving hasn't been able to fix our issues in net. The swings he has made have been mostly misses, and he hasn't been able to bring in the obvious guys that have stabilized the teams they have went to. I really like our GM and I get that he has tried. But using Yoda math he gets a big "do not" for this one leaving a giant question mark to deal with this season. 

[cccsberg]

10 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I agree cross, that's a hard debate to have. You don't have the pick of the litter, because every one is in on it.

One thing I'd like is a new goalie coach, which is something he can control.

When I watch the work with goalies at camp, I find it lame. Take shots on him, that's pretty lame. "Okay let's work on your blocker clears", lame.

There's a lot of downtime with the goalies.

No reason. "okay butterfly, how many can you do in 2 minutes? When your gloves start dropping because you're tired, I'm ringing shots around your ears".

Skate them hard. They have legs.

Make the whole team go hard. The point is to make them better, not privileged

I think we're mentally soft because we that's how we teach it.

It doesn't work..

I haven't watched the goalie practices that closely but you may have a point.

[DirtyDeeds]

11 hours ago, MAC331 said:

So in your mind wins are the only success that counts ? Are you not one that complains about how we don't develop players properly ? How do you expect these two to progress if you take away the slots they need in order to achieve valued playing time ? I thought there were times the majority of their play was brilliant and the fundamentals sound. Let Rittich get back in there now that he knows the environment. He doesn't have much to learn by going back to Stockton. Gilles on the other hand needs to prove to himself that he can stay healthy and take on a regular's workload. This is the only way we will find out if he can be a regular option for replacing Smith.

Where did I say only wins count?? where did you get that idea? Come on Mac.. you can do better than try to put words in my mouth.

 

I complain about our Goalie Coach and how few(pretty much none) successes he has had both in Abbottsford and in Calgary. No one has answered my question to show me one Goalie success he has had.

 

I said in another post wins or losses are not what counts nor do Stats.. To judge a prospect when he has his opportunity you have to look at how well he plays, not any of the other stuff.

[The_People1]

20 hours ago, conundrumed said:

 

Skate them hard. They have legs.

Make the whole team go hard. The point is to make them better, not privileged

I think we're mentally soft because we that's how we teach it.

It doesn't work..

 

The players are Millennials.  The most privileged generation to date in mankind's history.  You cannot apply motivational tactics from the 1980s.  Lol