Goaltending

[conundrumed]

On 11/28/2017 at 11:03 AM, travel_dude said:

Parson, Gillies, Rittich, Schneider. 

 

The reason why I said that MacDonald was a right-off was that I haven't seen anything from him at any level that implies he's anything at the pro level.  

 

Schneider is too early to call, but is trending in the wrong direction.

 

I would prefer that we have two possible starters battling it out in the AHL (Parson and Gillies) and that they stay there until they are ready, maybe another one to three years.  Rittich could be a reliable backup this year and ready for a heavier workload next year.  Smith may have a lighter workload if that is the case.

We could have just solved this with no Lack.

People can say, "well he didn't cost much", but that really isn't the case when he's in the way.

If Smith were to do a long groin stint on the IR, is Lack going to save us?

This is why I brought up, a few months back, I'm not interested in the ghosts of Gulutzan's passed, AT ALL.

Our drafting has been great, push that stuff to the front of the table and stop worrying that it might not be enough.

It's what we have via strong scouting. Trust it.

I think maybe it's just me, but I really like how Rittich plays and I favour him over all of our goalie prospects (and Lack) right now.

He keeps the crease quiet, no surprises, you know what you're going to get with him. He isn't there for Smith-type saves, and honestly, it's because he doesn't put himself in Smith-type trouble.

Perhaps the Flames played their best game defensively against Colorado because Rittich has zero surprises to spring on them.

I'm not sure what else he has to do to be honest, boot Lack, give him the seat.

He may not be the guy to win you a bunch of games, but he isn't going to lose any for you, as I see him.

His fundamentals are sound. When teams "get the book" on him, it's going to be a long read because you can't just say, "high blocker-side".

Rittich has a high end foundation imho.

Enough of my rant, though, I could blither much more.

I REALLY like Rittich. When I watch how he's used and even read people are leaving him as almost an afterthought, I wonder if I'm just entirely out to lunch.

All I see is a really pragmatic goalie and he could make a 40 save shutout look boring because his fundies are well above average.

[jjgallow]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

I'm not saying saying this will happen to Gilles, but I think Malcolm Subban is a great example of why it's tough to judge and evaluate goalies. His own team said he was done and the consensus was his AHL results "weren't good enough" and on paper they appeared that way. Looks pretty good at the NHL level now...

 

Let things play out and you never know what some can do with an opportunity. 

 

I would say the two are very comparable in terms of slumping the last couple years, an excellent example.

 

Relevant to the debate, I'm not so sure.  Nobody on here ever said to give up on Gillies.   A year from now....that's a different story.    But at 23 he's performing well enough and also has a god enough track record to still be considered a worthwhile prospect.

 

So...true...if someone on here was actually suggesting we turf Gillies now (not sure anyone ever was), then...this would be a great counter-arguement.

 

 

Schneider and McDonald....unless they show something soon they will be pushed to the back-burner.   Because they would need a dramatic turnaround JUST to make it into the AHL.

[phoenix66]

11 hours ago, cross16 said:

I'm not saying saying this will happen to Gilles, but I think Malcolm Subban is a great example of why it's tough to judge and evaluate goalies. His own team said he was done and the consensus was his AHL results "weren't good enough" and on paper they appeared that way. Looks pretty good at the NHL level now...

 

Let things play out and you never know what some can do with an opportunity. 

To be fair.. Boston didnt give up on him , they thought he would clear waivers .. tho it can be argued they were obviously willing to risk it

 

 

[phoenix66]

22 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I would say the two are very comparable in terms of slumping the last couple years, an excellent example.

 

Relevant to the debate, I'm not so sure.  Nobody on here ever said to give up on Gillies.   A year from now....that's a different story.    But at 23 he's performing well enough and also has a god enough track record to still be considered a worthwhile prospect.

 

So...true...if someone on here was actually suggesting we turf Gillies now (not sure anyone ever was), then...this would be a great counter-arguement.

 

 

Schneider and McDonald....unless they show something soon they will be pushed to the back-burner.   Because they would need a dramatic turnaround JUST to make it into the AHL.

I'd say Gillie sis right on track.. remember he;s very likely to spend at least another year in Stockton , if they keep Rittich and he shows hes a usable backup,,as next season Rittich is waiver eligible .. Gillies is not 

[jjgallow]

16 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

To be fair.. Boston didnt give up on him , they thought he would clear waivers .. tho it can be argued they were obviously willing to risk it

 

Yeah, I would be one making that arguement...it is what it is, they lost what appears to be an NHL calibre goaltending prospect early on.

 

Likewise, nobody here wants to  give up on, or more specifically "expose to waivers" the likes of Gillies.    Too soon.

 

That doesn't mean we have a coveted dynamo right now either.

 

16 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I'd say Gillie sis right on track.. remember he;s very likely to spend at least another year in Stockton , if they keep Rittich and he shows hes a usable backup,,as next season Rittich is waiver eligible .. Gillies is not 

 

I would say he is not on track.   He does have an excuse of his major surgery, but time is passing and he needs to step things up a notch soon.   We don't need a miracle, we just need some marked and defined improvement this season.   He has shown glimpses of it, and then not.    So for me, he's a valuable investment but we cannot assume that he "has us covered" for our future...far from it.    He is a gamble at this point.   A good gamble, but a gamble at that.

 

 

p.s....despite all this...Gillies just had a fantastic game yesterday, bringing him back up to .921 in the AHL.  Putting him in the top 10.  Nice.  He's getting closer.

 

I'd say....him being in the AHL's top 5 goalies, on that particular team, would be "on track" (if "on track" means potential future NHL starter).   JMHO.

[jjgallow]

Sunday distraction from last night's game:

 

 

Ok, this is starting to get odd.   Jeremy Brodeur.   Goalie.   A few of us may recognize the last name 

 

He's been brought up on here before.   And it's getting weirder.

 

So here's the thing.   I don't come across Jeremy Brodeur from looking for sons of all-time great goalies.      I come across him (and have more than once) when I get bored and I'm looking statistically for the best un-signed young goalie prospects available.

 

There's Jeremy Brodeur.   Coming up as statistically one of the best, if not the best, unsigned NHL worthy goalie prospect in North America.

 

What give with that?   Were people not aware that his Dad was one of the greatest goalies to ever play the game?   Or maybe they were, and that put them off?   The only comparison I can think of is how Bobby Hull's son almost wasn't drafted despite putting up unreal numbers.

 

So yeah, I get why he wasn't drafted at first.  When the kid was 18, he wasn't even really playing junior.    Doing his own thing.   Clearly loved hockey but not taking it seriously.

 

But then his 2nd draft year, he went to junior.   And for a first-year junior, did incredibly well.  Amazingly well.     A backup, as expected.    No bytes.   Nobody took the chance on him in the draft.

 

Two years later, he's one of the OHL's top goalies.   Like I mean, 5th overall save percentage, on a dodgy team.  From not having played serious hockey.   And no interest.  Nothing.  Yeah, so the kid started late.  But is anybody noticing that his progression looks a lot like he's got his Dad's genetics?   Starting to get confusing.

 

Okay.

 

So today I do a search of the best players in the ECHL 21 years of age or younger.   (I don't even filter by free agency)

 

Guess who comes up on top?    Jeremy Brodeur, with a .926 Save Percentage.

 

And nobody else really close.  Next best?  Tyler Parsons, with a .915, and then Callum Booth.   Basically all top NHL prospects.    Nobody that isn't already drafted and signed.

 

So now he's caught up.   He's literally caught up with all the top draft picks his age.    What Gives?    I get that he had a late start....but seriously....   every NHL team too gun-shy to take a chance on the son of one of the game's greatest goalies when his performance alone justifies it?

[Thebrewcrew]

Curious as to what the coaching staff does with the upcoming b2b. Smith has been a bit shaky the last few games so I wouldn't be playing him in both.

 

TOR

I start Rittich here. TOR is a tough place to play for the Flames historically, hopefully the young guy can buck the trend. He also gets the benefit of having a rested team.

 

MTL
Main reason I'm starting Smith here is I like the chances of Smith edging out Price in a low scoring game better than Rittich. It will be a struggle to find 3 goals and we will need our goalie to be excellent.

 

That said, we need to win both games as our play has been slipping of late. We all remember what happened when we visited these barns last year..

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Curious as to what the coaching staff does with the upcoming b2b. Smith has been a bit shaky the last few games so I wouldn't be playing him in both.

 

TOR

I start Rittich here. TOR is a tough place to play for the Flames historically, hopefully the young guy can buck the trend. He also gets the benefit of having a rested team.

 

MTL
Main reason I'm starting Smith here is I like the chances of Smith edging out Price in a low scoring game better than Rittich. It will be a struggle to find 3 goals and we will need our goalie to be excellent.

 

That said, we need to win both games as our play has been slipping of late. We all remember what happened when we visited these barns last year..

We are getting into the part of the season where they should ride Smith forever. Teams like a consistent effort from goalies so there is confidence involved however the other side is to use Rittich first to rest Smith but also to have the team tighten up defensively to help the rookie. Both can be used effectively and now may be the time to implement some regularity to changes.

[The_People1]

17 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Curious as to what the coaching staff does with the upcoming b2b. Smith has been a bit shaky the last few games so I wouldn't be playing him in both.

 

TOR

I start Rittich here. TOR is a tough place to play for the Flames historically, hopefully the young guy can buck the trend. He also gets the benefit of having a rested team.

 

MTL
Main reason I'm starting Smith here is I like the chances of Smith edging out Price in a low scoring game better than Rittich. It will be a struggle to find 3 goals and we will need our goalie to be excellent.

 

That said, we need to win both games as our play has been slipping of late. We all remember what happened when we visited these barns last year..

 

I would sit Smith too and give him a rest.  Age is age and you have to take care of the body.  He should only be playing 60-games max or else he will wear out down the stretch.  This means 22-games split amongst the backups.   

 

That said, boy Toronto is one good offensive team.  I'd rather Rittich face the Habs.  Unlike they will score 10-goals in a game again anytime soon.

[travel_dude]

49 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would sit Smith too and give him a rest.  Age is age and you have to take care of the body.  He should only be playing 60-games max or else he will wear out down the stretch.  This means 22-games split amongst the backups.   

 

That said, boy Toronto is one good offensive team.  I'd rather Rittich face the Habs.  Unlike they will score 10-goals in a game again anytime soon.

 

The current trend for Smith is poor save percentage and high GAA.  I think you need to give him a few days off now.  Start Rittich in TO.  Start Smith in MON and against VAN.  The defense has to perform better for the goalie, so start with playing for Rittich.  They did it once.  The team is fresher in TO.  

[420since1974]

A high pressure game in Toronto could work well for Rittich.

He does appear to be able to keep calm.

Better support from the skaters will be key.

The team needs fewer defense-men pinching and more forwards coming back quickly to help out.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, 420since1974 said:

A high pressure game in Toronto could work well for Rittich.

He does appear to be able to keep calm.

Better support from the skaters will be key.

The team needs fewer defense-men pinching and more forwards coming back quickly to help out.

 

Rittich's poor play behind the net was bad, not not totally his fault.  He's not used to the players (which were shifted mid-game) and telling them what to do.  In some ways he was too calm.  Hamonic an Kulak (IIRC) got their signals crossed about who was taking the puck.  It happens.

 

One of the reasons why I was suggesting Rittich is there s no book on him.  He doesn't play the Marlies often.  He hasn't been scouted by every team for years to know his weakness on the glove side high.  We are going to need the better of the two goalies when the team is tired, and we inevitably get Bart back in because of the B2B games. 

[jjgallow]

On 05/12/2017 at 5:36 PM, travel_dude said:

 

The current trend for Smith is poor save percentage and high GAA.  I think you need to give him a few days off now.  Start Rittich in TO.  Start Smith in MON and against VAN.  The defense has to perform better for the goalie, so start with playing for Rittich.  They did it once.  The team is fresher in TO.  

 

While I have issues with our backup situation, whatever we do we absolutely need to give Mike Smith a break.   We've taken a good thing and worn it far too thin.  Again.

 

After a couple rough games, Smith is back to .916, basically in line with the vast majority of his career.   Erasing the theory that on a better team, he'd have a better save percentage.    He did have an awefully good start, but we rode that way too hard.

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=50142

[Thebrewcrew]

I've been very impressed with Rittich thus far. Small sample size, but he is looking like he has a chance to be next in line once Smith leaves. Need to get him a few more starts, but he was looked very good IMO

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I've been very impressed with Rittich thus far. Small sample size, but he is looking like he has a chance to be next in line once Smith leaves. Need to get him a few more starts, but he was looked very good IMO

 

He's shown us what a backup needs to be.  Steady, never nervous, ready to play at a top level,  I think he needs to get every 2nd or 3rd game for the next little while to both give Smith a break and see what Rittich is all about.  He was perfect in the game and only let in a top shelf shot from the slot, with a falling player screening the shot, and a point shot that was deflected down by a player that should have been covered.  He stopped two breakaways, one in the last second of OT.  Even Smith is about 50/50 on those. 

[Khrox]

Rittich is looking like the real deal for us right now. I am glad we have him backing up right now, since I don't feel nervous when he's in net like I have with most backups (and some starters) in recent years.

[Flyerfan52]

Lack traded to NJ for defenseman Dalton Prout. Prout assigned to AHL.

[travel_dude]

BT making room for Parsons, when he comes back from injury.

Great trade of a guy that would never play another Flames game for a D-man that we can move up and down for close to a month.

Or, he may just replace Bart as the 7th D-man, coming in against bigger teams.  We play LA and ANA really soon.   

[conundrumed]

On 12/29/2017 at 2:23 PM, travel_dude said:

 

He's shown us what a backup needs to be.  Steady, never nervous, ready to play at a top level,  I think he needs to get every 2nd or 3rd game for the next little while to both give Smith a break and see what Rittich is all about.  He was perfect in the game and only let in a top shelf shot from the slot, with a falling player screening the shot, and a point shot that was deflected down by a player that should have been covered.  He stopped two breakaways, one in the last second of OT.  Even Smith is about 50/50 on those. 

At this point in the season, I'd think he has to get at least 1 in every 4.

Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen.

Smith is playing very well and goalies like him want every game. But the flip side to that is if he starts to falter, we'll find out we waited too long.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the Flames view on Rittich, other than I simply don't get it.

He totally saved us from Lack, that's all I know!

He should have gotten a lot more consideration for the backup from the get-go, but they bring in Lack. I hate that we always refuse to give guys proving worthy on the farm a real shot. Not unlike sending Janko and Hathaway down in, "a numbers game".

Wait and wait and wait...now we even see Mangia-mangia bringing something to the table.

It's like mgmt has blinders on and force the square pegs into the round holes until they're desperate.

Then it's, "oh, why did we wait so long".

Hi Rasmus...welcome to the dreaded, "numbers game".

 

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

At this point in the season, I'd think he has to get at least 1 in every 4.

Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen.

Smith is playing very well and goalies like him want every game. But the flip side to that is if he starts to falter, we'll find out we waited too long.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the Flames view on Rittich, other than I simply don't get it.

He totally saved us from Lack, that's all I know!

He should have gotten a lot more consideration for the backup from the get-go, but they bring in Lack. I hate that we always refuse to give guys proving worthy on the farm a real shot. Not unlike sending Janko and Hathaway down in, "a numbers game".

Wait and wait and wait...now we even see Mangia-mangia bringing something to the table.

It's like mgmt has blinders on and force the square pegs into the round holes until they're desperate.

Then it's, "oh, why did we wait so long".

Hi Rasmus...welcome to the dreaded, "numbers game".

 

 

The only loss Rittich gave up was a SO loss.  Every game he plays, he looks calm.  

But, you are right that Smith will get far more games than he should.  Waste his season on games where we don't even show up.

Tire him out before the playoffs, even if Rittich gives us enough chance to win.

 

Mangiapane being used for 8 minutes, while Jagr easily is a step behind the Backlund line.  First shift of the game and he gets a scoring chance.  Actually made the 4th line look like a decent 4th line.  As well as he could.

 

Ras is wasting away.  Should never have been sent down.  He's better than Kulak.  But, hey, the coach knows more.  Gotta get Bart in the lineup.  Yes, Prout was a smart trade for depth, but why do we bother with an AHL team if we don't use the D-men being developed there.  Spoon was at least as good as Kulak, and is top 2 in Stockton.

Meanwhile, we suffer through Brodie's lack of awareness most shifts.

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The only loss Rittich gave up was a SO loss.  Every game he plays, he looks calm.  

But, you are right that Smith will get far more games than he should.  Waste his season on games where we don't even show up.

Tire him out before the playoffs, even if Rittich gives us enough chance to win.

 

Mangiapane being used for 8 minutes, while Jagr easily is a step behind the Backlund line.  First shift of the game and he gets a scoring chance.  Actually made the 4th line look like a decent 4th line.  As well as he could.

 

Ras is wasting away.  Should never have been sent down.  He's better than Kulak.  But, hey, the coach knows more.  Gotta get Bart in the lineup.  Yes, Prout was a smart trade for depth, but why do we bother with an AHL team if we don't use the D-men being developed there.  Spoon was at least as good as Kulak, and is top 2 in Stockton.

Meanwhile, we suffer through Brodie's lack of awareness most shifts.

You have no appreciation for what is being worked on as an organization.

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The only loss Rittich gave up was a SO loss.  Every game he plays, he looks calm.  

But, you are right that Smith will get far more games than he should.  Waste his season on games where we don't even show up.

Tire him out before the playoffs, even if Rittich gives us enough chance to win.

 

Mangiapane being used for 8 minutes, while Jagr easily is a step behind the Backlund line.  First shift of the game and he gets a scoring chance.  Actually made the 4th line look like a decent 4th line.  As well as he could.

 

Ras is wasting away.  Should never have been sent down.  He's better than Kulak.  But, hey, the coach knows more.  Gotta get Bart in the lineup.  Yes, Prout was a smart trade for depth, but why do we bother with an AHL team if we don't use the D-men being developed there.  Spoon was at least as good as Kulak, and is top 2 in Stockton.

Meanwhile, we suffer through Brodie's lack of awareness most shifts.

I think it's getting fair to say that GG has ruined Brodie in his arrogance.

We just have to look at TJ prior to GG and after.

Gio having a Norris yr prior to being injured, Brodie taking over with Wideman.

Imho, GG has Brodie turned inside out. He has done nothing but struggle with the direct correlation being GG's tenure.

Before that, no problem.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I think it's getting fair to say that GG has ruined Brodie in his arrogance.

We just have to look at TJ prior to GG and after.

Gio having a Norris yr prior to being injured, Brodie taking over with Wideman.

Imho, GG has Brodie turned inside out. He has done nothing but struggle with the direct correlation being GG's tenure.

Before that, no problem.

 

2 years ago, people were quietly saying Brodie would start getting the Norris mention.  Now, he's on track for the Wideman award.

Watching Brodie struggle on the point in a PP is painful.  He's a setup guy or a skater.  Even having him and Hamilton on the same unit is having two guys that take wrist shots.  Ah, well, Gully knows best.  Keep starting Smith every game possible, even though Rittich has shown he plays behind a better team.  Keep Brodie out there for 24 minutes when he's struggling.  Ice the 4th line after a goal for or against.  Refuse to even consider trying Tkachuk on the top line.  Play Jagr in Frolik's spot.  Sit out Kulak to keep Bart from getting stale.

 

If Rittich doesn't get 20 starts, then there is something wrong.  He's done exactly what he's been asked to do, and then some.  He doesn't handle the puck too much.  He plays the angles without giving up too much to the pass.    

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

2 years ago, people were quietly saying Brodie would start getting the Norris mention.  Now, he's on track for the Wideman award.

Watching Brodie struggle on the point in a PP is painful.  He's a setup guy or a skater.  Even having him and Hamilton on the same unit is having two guys that take wrist shots.  Ah, well, Gully knows best.  Keep starting Smith every game possible, even though Rittich has shown he plays behind a better team.  Keep Brodie out there for 24 minutes when he's struggling.  Ice the 4th line after a goal for or against.  Refuse to even consider trying Tkachuk on the top line.  Play Jagr in Frolik's spot.  Sit out Kulak to keep Bart from getting stale.

 

If Rittich doesn't get 20 starts, then there is something wrong.  He's done exactly what he's been asked to do, and then some.  He doesn't handle the puck too much.  He plays the angles without giving up too much to the pass.    

I used to love the chemistry you could see with Brodie and Mony when Brodie was on the RD. Brodie could find Mony in the slot from one side, JG from the other.

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I used to love the chemistry you could see with Brodie and Mony when Brodie was on the RD. Brodie could find Mony in the slot from one side, JG from the other.

 

I will say this.  I had my issues with Hartley, but his use of Brodie was not one of them.  We have a much better defense core than EDM, yet their issues are more on the PK than any other thing.  We have issues defending with players playing their natural side, if not strong side.  How many teams would love to have 3 RHS D-men, yet perform as good or better with D-men playing their "off" side.