Goaltending

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Does that include Mason then? Some here are suggesting him and from what i remember, he has had an up and down and up and down career. 

 

He's a UFA there, so they don't need to protect him.  And perhaps they have already discussed his future there.  The same reason Grubauer/Mason makes sense here applies to the Flyers.  I seriously doubt that LV selects him as their pick from the Flyers.

 

It's all just speculation here.  We don't know what the GM's think about their situation, so the trades prior to the draft may be expensive or few and far between.  It shouln't cost more to deal before.  

[cross16]

 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

 

 

I don't take a lot of stock in LeBrun's thoughts.  His report of the Flames contacting the Yotes is more disturbing.  

[MAC331]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't take a lot of stock in LeBrun's thoughts.  His report of the Flames contacting the Yotes is more disturbing.  

These guys are just rumor mongers, they look at teams needs and problems and start the musical chairs song sheet.

[phoenix66]

uh oh....

 

https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1315177-report-coyotes-smith-submits-list-of-8-teams-he-doesn-t-want-to-be-traded-to

 

kind of ironic to see this right after the tweet 

 

 

and there is history ..

 

"A move to Calgary would reunite him with general manager Brad Treliving, who was previously part of the Coyotes' hockey operations. Same with Don Maloney, a Flames pro scout who originally brought Smith to Arizona in 2011 when he served as Coyotes GM. Not many hockey minds could offer a deeper read on Smith."

[cross16]

I'm a fan of smith personally. If the cost was reasonable I'd be very interested. 

Chyka can say whatever he wants but smith doesn't have a lot if trade value at his age and contract level. 

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm a fan of smith personally. If the cost was reasonable I'd be very interested. 

Chyka can say whatever he wants but smith doesn't have a lot if trade value at his age and contract level. 

heres hoping the master schools the pupil.....  one promising fact is Chayka loves taking on bad contracts to meet the floor..and he just lost Datsyuk

 

a 1st , Brouwer, and Kulak for Smith and OEL.  get it done Brad    

[MAC331]

4 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

heres hoping the master schools the pupil.....  one promising fact is Chayka loves taking on bad contracts to meet the floor..and he just lost Datsyuk

 

a 1st , Brouwer, and Kulak for Smith and OEL.  get it done Brad    

Dream on. The one smart thing the ARZ GM is saying is that OEL is untouchable and he should be. I'm not sold on Smith being the one for us at 35 and a lot of logged time.

[Cowtownguy]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

I'm a fan of smith personally. If the cost was reasonable I'd be very interested. 

Chyka can say whatever he wants but smith doesn't have a lot if trade value at his age and contract level. 

I could actually see Smith being attractive to Treliving. Given his age, Smith might be willing to sign a reasonable contract giving us more flexibility with other positions. Maybe Treliving believes that we just need two years from Smith until Gillies (or someone else) can take the reigns. It is hard to judge any potential deal intelligently until we know the particulars. 

 

I had my hopes set on Bishop since last year. Something was obviously wrong there. When considering the others, I would rather see us bring up a younger, promising player like Grubauer. If such a player cannot be had, it matters not to me whether we get Elliott, MAF, Mason, Smith etc. Select the best deal to help free up cash for other positions, or dump a few contracts.

[Cowtownguy]

24 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Dream on. The one smart thing the ARZ GM is saying is that OEL is untouchable and he should be. I'm not sold on Smith being the one for us at 35 and a lot of logged time.

I dunno, Chayka (aka analytics dude) seems to be about as smart as Mac T. I have no problem examining quantitative data to validate or invalidate hypotheses, but other forms of information are required in order to generate the hypotheses from an overarching theory in the first place. Ice hockey is not like baseball where you can accumulate data and apply analytics (which is the same thing as statistical data analysis with a different name for some reason). Baseball is a series of relatively isolated actions that can be measured, whereas almost everything in hockey is connected to other actions. This is why we always argue about things like goalie stats. Is a particular goalie's stats a reflection of his abilities, the defence, or the forwards? Few statistics in ice hockey allow us to empirically demonstrate who is responsible for something as simple as save percentage.

[phoenix66]

48 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Dream on. The one smart thing the ARZ GM is saying is that OEL is untouchable and he should be. I'm not sold on Smith being the one for us at 35 and a lot of logged time.

if Ive learned one thing in this league its never say never .. 24 hrs ago he practically called Smith untradeable ,   last year Bergevin was "absolutely not" shopping Subban.yet Poile stated it was bergevin that called him.

He's 2 years from UFA.. and the 'yotes aren't exactly a contender anytime soon..

 

is it likely ?  No..   but a lot can change very quickly 

 

besides.. until it doesnt happen , i still think we're getting MAF

[Cowtownguy]

5 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

if Ive learned one thing in this league its never say never .. 24 hrs ago he practically called Smith untradeable ,   last year Bergevin was "absolutely not" shopping Subban.yet Poile stated it was bergevin that called him.

He's 2 years from UFA.. and the 'yotes aren't exactly a contender anytime soon..

 

is it likely ?  No..   but a lot can change very quickly 

 

besides.. until it doesnt happen , i still think we're getting MAF

No kidding. I heard a Montreal reporter say that there is no way that Price is going to be traded. The reporter said that with Subban, Bergevin only said they absolutely would not trade him. With Price, he made it a super duper, spectacular, no foolies promise with a cheery on top and no fingers crossed. You know, like a for reals promise. Everyone knows that "absolutely not" really means "probably".

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I dunno, Chayka (aka analytics dude) seems to be about as smart as Mac T. I have no problem examining quantitative data to validate or invalidate hypotheses, but other forms of information are required in order to generate the hypotheses from an overarching theory in the first place. Ice hockey is not like baseball where you can accumulate data and apply analytics (which is the same thing as statistical data analysis with a different name for some reason). Baseball is a series of relatively isolated actions that can be measured, whereas almost everything in hockey is connected to other actions. This is why we always argue about things like goalie stats. Is a particular goalie's stats a reflection of his abilities, the defence, or the forwards? Few statistics in ice hockey allow us to empirically demonstrate who is responsible for something as simple as save percentage.

Nice book, what does any of this have to do with being smart enough to know what he has in OEL and keep him on this young building team ?

[robrob74]

9 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I dunno, Chayka (aka analytics dude) seems to be about as smart as Mac T. I have no problem examining quantitative data to validate or invalidate hypotheses, but other forms of information are required in order to generate the hypotheses from an overarching theory in the first place. Ice hockey is not like baseball where you can accumulate data and apply analytics (which is the same thing as statistical data analysis with a different name for some reason). Baseball is a series of relatively isolated actions that can be measured, whereas almost everything in hockey is connected to other actions. This is why we always argue about things like goalie stats. Is a particular goalie's stats a reflection of his abilities, the defence, or the forwards? Few statistics in ice hockey allow us to empirically demonstrate who is responsible for something as simple as save percentage.

 

 

I also think that hockey advanced stats are great to a point. The game changes so quickly during play that stats cannot account for that. Even high danger shots/stats can only say so much to the situation. Does it account for who flinched first? 

 

I agree with you 100%. Stats are great, but i don't think a team can be built on stats alone. 

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

if Ive learned one thing in this league its never say never .. 24 hrs ago he practically called Smith untradeable ,   last year Bergevin was "absolutely not" shopping Subban.yet Poile stated it was bergevin that called him.

He's 2 years from UFA.. and the 'yotes aren't exactly a contender anytime soon..

 

is it likely ?  No..   but a lot can change very quickly 

 

besides.. until it doesnt happen , i still think we're getting MAF

There is another saying "seeing is believing".

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

No kidding. I heard a Montreal reporter say that there is no way that Price is going to be traded. The reporter said that with Subban, Bergevin only said they absolutely would not trade him. With Price, he made it a super duper, spectacular, no foolies promise with a cheery on top and no fingers crossed. You know, like a for reals promise. Everyone knows that "absolutely not" really means "probably".

Bergevin is one of the worst GMs end of story. Why in any world would you pay Subban 9.5M ?

[phoenix66]

20 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Bergevin is one of the worst GMs end of story. Why in any world would you pay Subban 9.5M ?

no discounting Bergevin as being one of the worst .. he is .. but that was a perfect storm,  he got him (forcibly) onto a bridge deal and he promptly won a Norris Trophy.. In hindsight , should have given him the long term 7 or so he was asking for .

[phoenix66]

26 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

There is another saying "seeing is believing".

absolutely .. i have no belief that this will happen (hence my smiley face after the comment ) .. but would I be surprised if he ends up trading OEL?  somewhere anyway ? after calling him Untradeable ?.. not at all

[MAC331]

7 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

absolutely .. i have no belief that this will happen (hence my smiley face after the comment ) .. but would I be surprised if he ends up trading OEL?  somewhere anyway ? after calling him Untradeable ?.. not at all

I would expect like most of these situations as he get closer to UFA and has no intentions of staying with ARZ a smart GM trades him. This may be one case where it's not about the money with OEL however if he believes in the direction of the team and the willingness for them to pay him like a top defenseman he could elect to stay.

[cross16]

For what its worth, Treliving clarified today that if the Flames deal Elliott's rights or re-sign him at any point (before or after July 1 doesn't matter) they have to send the Blues their 2018 3rd Rounder. 

[Flyerfan52]

11 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I could actually see Smith being attractive to Treliving. Given his age, Smith might be willing to sign a reasonable contract giving us more flexibility with other positions. Maybe Treliving believes that we just need two years from Smith until Gillies (or someone else) can take the reigns. It is hard to judge any potential deal intelligently until we know the particulars. 

 

I had my hopes set on Bishop since last year. Something was obviously wrong there. When considering the others, I would rather see us bring up a younger, promising player like Grubauer. If such a player cannot be had, it matters not to me whether we get Elliott, MAF, Mason, Smith etc. Select the best deal to help free up cash for other positions, or dump a few contracts.

With Smith still carrying a $5.67 cap hit for 2 years it's expensive for a bridge goalie. Especially when you add the assets lost in the cost of acquisition.

 

I'm all for a Grubauer or Raanta tandemed with a former starter like Mason. If we did that with MAF we run into the Pittsburgh situation with 2 probable starters wanting 50ish games but not enough starts for either. Besides, I'm counting on paying Grubauer or Raanta (after next season @ 1.0) in the range of 3.5-4.0 so MAF & Smith cost more than I think we should pay for the other 1/2 of the tandem. Either of the young guys will cost assets in trade but vets like Mason in UFA cost only the contract. If we get Smith/MAF we'd be better off $s wise to just sign a cheap UFA b/u for 1.0-1.5.

Gotta balance the cost to get them & total $s rather than just go for names.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

With Smith still carrying a $5.67 cap hit for 2 years it's expensive for a bridge goalie. Especially when you add the assets lost in the cost of acquisition.

 

I'm all for a Grubauer or Raanta tandemed with a former starter like Mason. If we did that with MAF we run into the Pittsburgh situation with 2 probable starters wanting 50ish games but not enough starts for either. Besides, I'm counting on paying Grubauer or Raanta (after next season @ 1.0) in the range of 3.5-4.0 so MAF & Smith cost more than I think we should pay for the other 1/2 of the tandem. Either of the young guys will cost assets in trade but vets like Mason in UFA cost only the contract. If we get Smith/MAF we'd be better off $s wise to just sign a cheap UFA b/u for 1.0-1.5.

Gotta balance the cost to get them & total $s rather than just go for names.

 

I see the cost to get MAF as being as high as Grubauer or Raanta.  Doesn't matter where they are when the deal happens.  MAF would likely cost more, if he's in Vegas.  The other thing about that is that MAF's NTC restarts as soon as he end up in Vegas, so there's that to deal with.

 

The Flames needs "Mr. Right", not "Mr. Right Now" for a goalie.  There is no guarantee that Gillies or Rittich or Paerson will even be NHL goalies.  We hope that one will.  We look for consistency in the AHL.  We want to see them start a few games.  MAF has a lot of mileage on him, and may not want to play when his contract ends.  Smith is far older.  Do we want to be in the same boat of having no starter in 2 years if the prospects aren't ready and we only have a NHL backup as plan B?

 

The solution is simple.  Negotiate the best deal for the best available starter-in-waiting.  Sign a UFA for a fallback option (ie. Mason, etc.).

[phoenix66]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I see the cost to get MAF as being as high as Grubauer or Raanta.  Doesn't matter where they are when the deal happens.  MAF would likely cost more, if he's in Vegas.  The other thing about that is that MAF's NTC restarts as soon as he end up in Vegas, so there's that to deal with.

 

The Flames needs "Mr. Right", not "Mr. Right Now" for a goalie.  There is no guarantee that Gillies or Rittich or Paerson will even be NHL goalies.  We hope that one will.  We look for consistency in the AHL.  We want to see them start a few games.  MAF has a lot of mileage on him, and may not want to play when his contract ends.  Smith is far older.  Do we want to be in the same boat of having no starter in 2 years if the prospects aren't ready and we only have a NHL backup as plan B?

 

The solution is simple.  Negotiate the best deal for the best available starter-in-waiting.  Sign a UFA for a fallback option (ie. Mason, etc.).

well the NTC is a non starter.. we're either on his list or we're not .. we know that already I'm sure.

The other thing to consider is the cost of Signing Mason.. Im sure many GM's see him the same as we do,   in which case sure, he wont be 5-6M  but likely high 3's to low 4's

 

definitely not saying wait for the AHL ones, but i do disagree we don't need now..absolutely put one of those others behind him, .. but I still feel we need the guy that can do damage once we get to the playoffs, and not be sitting here again next year saying "well we thought he'd be better "

If we do decide to go that route, then we're just as good off to resign Elliot and push him with a Next One

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

For what its worth, Treliving clarified today that if the Flames deal Elliott's rights or re-sign him at any point (before or after July 1 doesn't matter) they have to send the Blues their 2018 3rd Rounder. 

yep .. so basically the only way we don't pay it is to totally walk away from him.

 

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

well the NTC is a non starter.. we're either on his list or we're not .. we know that already I'm sure.

 

You missed what I was getting at.  The waiving only last until he is traded to Vegas or CGY.  They would need to ask him to waive again to go to Calgary from Vegas.  You can't just be selected by Vegas and be traded to Calgary.