Carty Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 43 minutes ago, jjgallow said: Some common ground....this is uncomfortable "You had one job" comes to mind. It is somewhat of a paradox that t with so many goalies coming out of our AHL system being deemed NHL failures lately, the only person who had the sole job of developing those same players in the AHL since 2011, gets a promotion out of it to the NHL. Followed by the subsequent failure of Every NHL goalie, including proven ones, once it was his sole job to develop and maintain their performance.. Good post and well put jj... Seems to me that we have agreed on a number of things over time... Just not everything, but I suppose that you can't help being wrong on some issues... 43 minutes ago, jjgallow said: Amazing story, amazing person. But ...... Same applies to Malarchuk... He was kept way past his expiry date, and as far as I am concerned so has Sigalet... The Flames need to find an upgrade for this very important position... While I recognize and respect the value and honor in providing a position somewhere in the organization for some people due to the feel-good and warm fuzzy storybook good guy appeal to it, coaching positions should never be appointed for anything less than the best fit available from the most qualified candidates, and nobody will ever convince me the either of Malarchuk or Sigalet met that criteria... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 28 minutes ago, jjgallow said: Some common ground....this is uncomfortable "You had one job" comes to mind. It is somewhat of a paradox that with so many goalies coming out of our AHL system being deemed NHL failures lately, the only person who had the sole job of developing those same players in the AHL since 2011, gets a promotion out of it to the NHL. Followed by the subsequent failure of Every NHL goalie, including proven ones, once it was his sole job to develop and maintain their performance. Amazing story, amazing person. But ...... One question. Who is accountable, the goalie or their coach? For me, blaming the goalie coach is easily secondary to the goalie's attributes and headspace. If I'm a goalie coach, I can teach flexibility and angles, I can't teach a style you don't play, reflexes etc. I can't turn Wideman into a goalie and I can't teach a good goalie to be a bad one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: One question. Who is accountable, the goalie or their coach? For me, blaming the goalie coach is easily secondary to the goalie's attributes and headspace. If I'm a goalie coach, I can teach flexibility and angles, I can't teach a style you don't play, reflexes etc. I can't turn Wideman into a goalie and I can't teach a good goalie to be a bad one. yes you can. DD in Edmonton comes to mind right off. Add to that the organization(Mctavish in particular) showed no confidence in him. They ended up getting rid of their goalie coach after but the damage was done. It was long after his departure from Edmonton, before he was able to find a proper goalie coach who instilled the confidence in him and his abilities again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: ... I can't turn Wideman into a goalie .... Well that's not even fair, Wideman would make a fine goalie if it weren't for his concussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: One question. Who is accountable, the goalie or their coach? Both, and for different reasons that should be obvious... 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: For me, blaming the goalie coach is easily secondary to the goalie's attributes and headspace. A good goalie coach can help further develop a goaltenders positive attributes and also contribute to working on the weak areas... A goalie coach can have a lot of effect on a goalies headspace, with either a positive or negative effect... 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: If I'm a goalie coach, I can teach flexibility and angles, I can't teach a style you don't play, reflexes etc. If you do not understand what is wrong with this statement already after looking at it again, it would take enough space to write a book to explain why... 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: I can't teach a good goalie to be a bad one. Yes you can... By getting in their head in a negative way an a consistent basis... Could be as simple as being a poor teacher with a lack of proper fundamentals themselves, or by an overdose of negative input... There are a lot of reasons why things can go wrong... Quote 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: I can't turn Wideman into a goalie No, but a good goalie coach might be able to turn Kris Russell into a goalie... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 16 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said: yes you can. DD in Edmonton comes to mind right off. Add to that the organization(Mctavish in particular) showed no confidence in him. They ended up getting rid of their goalie coach after but the damage was done. It was long after his departure from Edmonton, before he was able to find a proper goalie coach who instilled the confidence in him and his abilities again. He found success in an incredibly defensive minded system. Like Mike Smith and every goalie that lands in Phoenix. Is that Burke, or team play? Minny is really no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, conundrumed said: He found success in an incredibly defensive minded system. Like Mike Smith and every goalie that lands in Phoenix. Is that Burke, or team play? Minny is really no different. Elliott found similar success in a very good defensive system in St Louis, and we think we are getting a very good goalie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, Carty said: If you do not understand what is wrong with this statement already after looking at it again, it would take enough space to write a book to explain why... I disagree. You don't make it this far by having a ton of positional issues. You can hone reflex, etc. But if you got this far and coaching ruined you, all I can think is, "Really"? That's my defense of Sigalet and my hairy eyeball on management. A goalie coach isn't overcoming what he has to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Elliott found similar success in a very good defensive system in St Louis, and we think we are getting a very good goalie. I saw his preseason games. He's positionally sound. Square to the shooter, absorbs puck, bringing back the pokecheck! lol I don't mean he can't lose 6-1, just that all you can ask for is solid mechanics. He has that, but it doesn't make us much better if we don't get better elsewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 20 minutes ago, conundrumed said: I disagree. You don't make it this far by having a ton of positional issues. You can hone reflex, etc. But if you got this far and coaching ruined you, all I can think is, "Really"? That's my defense of Sigalet and my hairy eyeball on management. A goalie coach isn't overcoming what he has to work with. Yeah, we aren't just talking about one AHL goalie. There were more than the one "that shall not be named", and he had them Very young, lots of time to work with them. His answer to that, in most cases, was to recommend shipping them off young. Then do nothing when their level of performance brought them back to him, and the position/style didn't fit the mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 15 minutes ago, conundrumed said: I saw his preseason games. He's positionally sound. Square to the shooter, absorbs puck, bringing back the pokecheck! lol I don't mean he can't lose 6-1, just that all you can ask for is solid mechanics. He has that, but it doesn't make us much better if we don't get better elsewhere. Through an odd series of exchanges, disagreements, an events.... I think I agree with this last statement more than any other in the last 30 pages on this thread. Exactly....Precisely....what I've been trying to say. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 4 minutes ago, jjgallow said: Yeah, we aren't just talking about one AHL goalie. There were more than the one "that shall not be named", and he had them Very young, lots of time to work with them. His answer to that, in most cases, was to recommend shipping them off young. Then do nothing when their level of performance brought them back to him, and the position/style didn't fit the mold. Which goalies did we have that are excelling in the NHL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 25 minutes ago, conundrumed said: I saw his preseason games. He's positionally sound. Square to the shooter, absorbs puck, bringing back the pokecheck! lol I don't mean he can't lose 6-1, just that all you can ask for is solid mechanics. He has that, but it doesn't make us much better if we don't get better elsewhere. I definitely agree! It will be how they play team D. The offence could be a bit better, but it is hard to argue with some of the success. Although the forwards could give a bit more depth scoring. The PP needs to improve, and the PK as well. Its good to have a positionally sound guy. I don't want to be Montreal last year and hide the warts with a Price situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 51 minutes ago, conundrumed said: That's my defense of Sigalet Sigalet had a mediocre junior career and literally has only 1 minute of NHL goal tending experience... You can't teach what you don't know... From all accounts he sounds like a good guy, but that doesn't mean I want to see him continue as a goalie coach for the Flames... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 11 minutes ago, Carty said: Sigalet had a mediocre junior career and literally has only 1 minute of NHL goal tending experience... You can't teach what you don't know... From all accounts he sounds like a good guy, but that doesn't mean I want to see him continue as a goalie coach for the Flames... So here's my ask, and I don't mean it as anything else, superiority, conviction, sarcasm blahblahblah. If you're drafted at 18, I'd surmise you're a cognizant guy re: puck tracking, athleticism, positioning, or you wouldn't be drafted. Head space..you're interviewed, you're practicing with the team. Is it not the head coach's responsibility now? Or is the goalie coach not accountable to him? When is the goalie himself accountable? I get, "things to work on", but I don't get why coaching is responsible when a guy maybe just isn't sharp enough but the staff decision is completely out of his hands. Not sure if you were coached at goalie Carty, but I did camps in the summer and team coaches. It's like reading through the fog and who you trust. It could be a boon for Sigalet to have an Elliot around to tell him to go boarding himself. lol You want your goalies full of attitude. lol Or at least I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 25 minutes ago, conundrumed said: So here's my ask, and I don't mean it as anything else, superiority, conviction, sarcasm blahblahblah. If you're drafted at 18, I'd surmise you're a cognizant guy re: puck tracking, athleticism, positioning, or you wouldn't be drafted. Head space..you're interviewed, you're practicing with the team. Is it not the head coach's responsibility now? Or is the goalie coach not accountable to him? When is the goalie himself accountable? I get, "things to work on", but I don't get why coaching is responsible when a guy maybe just isn't sharp enough but the staff decision is completely out of his hands. Not sure if you were coached at goalie Carty, but I did camps in the summer and team coaches. It's like reading through the fog and who you trust. It could be a boon for Sigalet to have an Elliot around to tell him to go boarding himself. lol You want your goalies full of attitude. lol Or at least I do. I was coached as a goalie at different levels... The experience ranged from excellent where I learned a lot, to idiots that I tuned out... But all of this is irrelevant to my opinion that the Flames could and should be looking for an upgrade for Sigalet... I'll say it again, you can't teach what you don't know... As you have also been coached as a goalie and most likely coached in different sports as well, I am surprised that you don't place more value on what a good coach can bring to the table... If the Flames thought a good fit as a coach didn't matter, Hartley and the other assistant coaches except Gelinas would still have a job... I just question why Sigalet still does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, Carty said: I was coached as a goalie at different levels... The experience ranged from excellent where I learned a lot, to idiots that I tuned out... But all of this is irrelevant to my opinion that the Flames could and should be looking for an upgrade for Sigalet... I'll say it again, you can't teach what you don't know... As you have also been coached as a goalie and most likely coached in different sports as well, I am surprised that you don't place more value on what a good coach can bring to the table... If the Flames thought a good fit as a coach didn't matter, Hartley and the other assistant coaches except Gelinas would still have a job... I just question why Sigalet still does... The need for a goalie coach this season is lessened, due to having two vets. Before we bring in Gillies or Parsons, I would look to upgrade the coaching position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 minute ago, Carty said: I was coached as a goalie at different levels... The experience ranged from excellent where I learned a lot to idiots that I tuned out... But all of this is irrelevant to my opinion that the Flames could and should be looking for an upgrade for Sigalet... I'll say it again, you can't teach what you don't know... As you have also been coached as a goalie and most likely coached in different sports as well, I am surprised that you don't place more value on what a good coach can bring to the table... If the Flames thought a good fit as a coach didn't matter, Hartley and the other assistant coaches except Gelinas would still have a job... I just question why Sigalet still does... Is the goalie coach a GM thing or a Head Coach thing though? And don't overrate me. I'd say 1 in maybe 5 coaches I've had, in any sport, I respected. Dumb adults have a means of destroying our kids, that's all I have to say about that. I had an old, ex-NHL, miserable crew cut military mentality goalie coach for a summer that I hated. A year later, I found myself thanking him profusely. Every goalie is different. The Flames should have already addressed what they want a goalie coach to accomplish. If they're adrift, I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 43 minutes ago, travel_dude said: The need for a goalie coach this season is lessened, due to having two vets. Before we bring in Gillies or Parsons, I would look to upgrade the coaching position. Well, that makes zero sense, But anyway, the Stockton Heat Have actually brought on Zulanello, who I have very high hopes for as a Legitimate, and experienced goaltending coach. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/thunder-bay-goalie-zulianello-1.3584090 http://stocktonheat.com/team/coaching-staff/colin-zulianello/ There is still some risk, obviously. Again, no NHL experience. But at the AHL level, perhaps an acceptable level of risk and hopefully one that yields results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 hour ago, travel_dude said: The need for a goalie coach this season is lessened, due to having two vets. Before we bring in Gillies or Parsons, I would look to upgrade the coaching position. I completely disagree. The lunatics can move the thinking in the asylum, but they can't run it. It's precarious at best. Brian Sutter said it best on 960 I think Thursday night, regarding players, but same concept, "check your wallet and ego at the door". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 The argument that a coach can't be an effective NHL coach if he didn't play in the league is false. Mike Babcock and Ken Hitchcock never did and neither did Mitch Korn or Francois Allaire and those two are considered two of the best goalies coaches of the last 10-15 years. i think Sigalet is a solid coach. He got the most out of some guys in the A and he did really well with the tandem two season ago. Hiller fell off the map last year but that's hardly coaching. Have to have a certain amount of talent to be a good coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 hour ago, cross16 said: Mitch Korn or Francois Allaire and those two are considered two of the best goalies coaches of the last 10-15 years. Mitch Korn (coached Hasek) has been coaching longer than Sigalet has been alive... Francois Allaire (coached Roy) has been coaching since Sigalet was 4 years old... I am sure that you know the rest of the details... Both of their resumes are considerably (to say the least) better than Sigalets... Apples and oranges here cross, and you certainly can't put Sigalet in the same class as either of those two... Probably not even in another 25 years... Allaire has history with Burke, and if he could ever be persuaded to be the Flames goalie coach, I would be a happy man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 Personally I was with everyone else and figured a change of the goalie coach would be automatic. Clearly goaltending was a problem last year. But he survived the mass firing and he survived the implementation of a new head coach. There must be a reason. Unless he has incrementing pictures my assumption is thst the organization and it's players see something great in him. I couldn't pick him out of a line up let alone comment on his coaching, so I defer to thatm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 23 minutes ago, Carty said: Mitch Korn (coached Hasek) has been coaching longer than Sigalet has been alive... Francois Allaire (coached Roy) has been coaching since Sigalet was 4 years old... I am sure that you know the rest of the details... Both of their resumes are considerably (to say the least) better than Sigalets... Apples and oranges here cross, and you certainly can't put Sigalet in the same class as either of those two... Probably not even in another 25 years... Allaire has history with Burke, and if he could ever be persuaded to be the Flames goalie coach, I would be a happy man... But your argument was that you can't coach what you didn't do? How did Korn and Allaire ever become good coaches if they never played on the league? That was also 2 examples of goalie coaches off the top of my head. There are plenty of them across the league that never played in the NHL. I like Sigalet but will admits i don't know if he is a great coach or not. Mg point is that really no one on this board is that qualified to say he isn't a good coach and all the reasons so far I've heard he isn't are pretty flimsy and BS reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 18 minutes ago, cross16 said: Mg point is that really no one on this board is that qualified to say he isn't a good coach and all the reasons so far I've heard he isn't are pretty flimsy and BS reasons. So in other words any opinion that you express on this board is pretty flimsy and for bs reasons, or is it just that you think that your the only one qualified enough on this board to have an opinion?... Your opinion is no more qualified or valid than a number of other peoples on this board cross... Here is Sigalet's brief but complete coaching record... Other than one season with the Silvertips, it is just with the Heat and the Flames, and we all know how well that has turned out so far...... I am more of the opinion that if we are fortunate enough to have a goalie show improvement in the foreseeable future, it will be despite Sigalet being the coach and not because of it... Perhaps down the road and with time he could turn into a great goalie coach, but I do not think that he is the right person at this point in time for either the Flames or the Heat... So far his track record for goalie development does not exactly inspire confidence... The idea should be to develop goalies and not to have to develop their coaches while they learn on the job... Go ahead and name one goalie that has shown any significant improvement from being fortunate enough to be mentored by Sigalet and his vast depth of goaltending knowledge... 58 minutes ago, cross16 said: That was also 2 examples of goalie coaches off the top of my head. There are plenty of them across the league that never played in the NHL. Feel free to expand on your list of goalie coaches that have a successful track record whether they played in the NHL or not... It would be useful as a list of examples of what kind of goalie coach the Flames should be looking for, and also possibly provide some ideas for potential candidates to replace Sigalet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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