Goaltending

[DirtyDeeds]

You will soon enough hear the yells from fans of "Mooooose!!" after a nice save or Hrudey talkin about our goalie "John-stoning" a forward.  Okay, I am reaching with Johnson.  

I really hope this is so. I think most of the Flames Fans are still in a  "Kipper Withdrawal" State of Mind and all the goalies since his retirement, were just the goalie who was playing Kippers replacement spot.

 

I hope Elliot plays well enough to forge his own legacy in our nets because that will mean the Flames are likely playing up to or close to their true potential. (weakest link was holding us back thinking)

[travel_dude]

I really hope this is so. I think most of the Flames Fans are still in a  "Kipper Withdrawal" State of Mind and all the goalies since his retirement, were just the goalie who was playing Kippers replacement spot.

 

I hope Elliot plays well enough to forge his own legacy in our nets because that will mean the Flames are likely playing up to or close to their true potential. (weakest link was holding us back thinking)

 

What frustrated me about recent Flames goalies was the "soft one".  It didn't seem to matter how they played in a game, but there was always a softie that put a dagger in the heart.  Kipper and Ramo were both the types of goalies that were entertaining to watch, with "The Scorpion", the backhanded slapper, whatever.  Hiller was positional and didn't make many diving saves.  Ortio was all over the map.

 

What I have seen in Elliott is the guy that gives a team confidence.  He makes a lot of saves look routine.  He battles to the last second on tough ones and never seems to get fooled on breakaways.  He seems to be a hybrid of a lot of different Flames goalies.

And, from what I gather, he will let his teammates know what he is expecting from them.  

[rickross]

If McDonald and Gillies are the goalies in Stockton next season and both put up good numbers it could turn the fortunes around for Stockton. It's healthier looking at our goalie depth and hopefully Schneider and Parsons can make cases for themselves. If Parsons can take the U.S. Team starting position we'd have a good staple of young U.S goalies in the ranks. As much as I like Brian Elliot I could see Johnson being the surprise pickup this offseason

[rickross]

Almost forgot about Rittich..he's the real unknown in the goalie equation. Pretty much we are in the process of rolling dice on starting goalies. You'd have to think atleast one of them (outside Elliot) step up in a big way this year. If not then...yeah we are cursed at the goalie position

[DirtyDeeds]

Almost forgot about Rittich..he's the real unknown in the goalie equation. Pretty much we are in the process of rolling dice on starting goalies. You'd have to think atleast one of them (outside Elliot) step up in a big way this year. If not then...yeah we are cursed at the goalie position

I disagree.  For example Gillies lost pretty much all of last year due to the operation on his hip. He is behind where he could have been. Apparently he has been playing with this injury for a few years now and changed his style to compensate.. Wow... what might be now he is repaired.

 

The acquisition of Elliott only gives us more time to develope our prospects properly. Goalies are usually the slowest to develop of all positions, so you might want to temper your expectations a bit, on how good we are with prospects on this coming seasons results.

 

I think last season was an anomaly with a few young goalies given the chance to perform early on in their careers. The expansion draft could change dramatically some clubs goalie depth.

 

I think it was smart for BT to give our present goalie tandem 1 year contracts but I expect if they perform close to their capabilities, then expect an extension to at least Elliott mid season.

[travel_dude]

I disagree.  For example Gillies lost pretty much all of last year due to the operation on his hip. He is behind where he could have been. Apparently he has been playing with this injury for a few years now and changed his style to compensate.. Wow... what might be now he is repaired.

 

The acquisition of Elliott only gives us more time to develope our prospects properly. Goalies are usually the slowest to develop of all positions, so you might want to temper your expectations a bit, on how good we are with prospects on this coming seasons results.

 

I think last season was an anomaly with a few young goalies given the chance to perform early on in their careers. The expansion draft could change dramatically some clubs goalie depth.

 

I think it was smart for BT to give our present goalie tandem 1 year contracts but I expect if they perform close to their capabilities, then expect an extension to at least Elliott mid season.

 

Think we have to sign both to be able to protect one and expose the other.  

 

I don't worry about Gillies taking time to develop.  With any luck, Elliott is our starter for 3 or more years.  

[robrob74]

I disagree. For example Gillies lost pretty much all of last year due to the operation on his hip. He is behind where he could have been. Apparently he has been playing with this injury for a few years now and changed his style to compensate.. Wow... what might be now he is repaired.

The acquisition of Elliott only gives us more time to develope our prospects properly. Goalies are usually the slowest to develop of all positions, so you might want to temper your expectations a bit, on how good we are with prospects on this coming seasons results.

I think last season was an anomaly with a few young goalies given the chance to perform early on in their careers. The expansion draft could change dramatically some clubs goalie depth.

I think it was smart for BT to give our present goalie tandem 1 year contracts but I expect if they perform close to their capabilities, then expect an extension to at least Elliott mid season.

I think I heard that Demko had the same surgery as Gillies. They say he is better than ever. But then again, gillies did miss the year.

[rickross]

I disagree. For example Gillies lost pretty much all of last year due to the operation on his hip. He is behind where he could have been. Apparently he has been playing with this injury for a few years now and changed his style to compensate.. Wow... what might be now he is repaired.

The acquisition of Elliott only gives us more time to develope our prospects properly. Goalies are usually the slowest to develop of all positions, so you might want to temper your expectations a bit, on how good we are with prospects on this coming seasons results.

I think last season was an anomaly with a few young goalies given the chance to perform early on in their careers. The expansion draft could change dramatically some clubs goalie depth.

I think it was smart for BT to give our present goalie tandem 1 year contracts but I expect if they perform close to their capabilities, then expect an extension to at least Elliott mid season.

I was thinking more in terms of them coming into their own as opposed to taking over or even vying for a starting role this year. I'm not expecting our goalie situation to magically resolve itself in one year but I'm hoping we can start to better define our prospects after this year. It'd be nice to know if Gillies is the real deal and can stay healthy, same thing for Macdonald, what do we really have in that kid ? One more year in Jr. for Parsons will be telling for his potential. I'm just thinking someone will stand out from the bunch this year. Elliot for sure buys us time but I still only consider him a short term fix.

[jjgallow]

I believe there is valid reason to believe that, in this day and age, Gillies could be better than ever after his hip surgery.

 

It might take him 3-6 months to get back into form, but that's a side issue.

 

 

The real issue, in my mind, is how common these surgeries are becoming.   And, if Gillies Does get noticeably better, he's starting a trend of goalies who have actually Improved their calibre after the surgery.

 

Which could raise a much Larger question in terms of the position, the net, the equipment, style of play, and where it's all headed.    Because if we Ever get into a situation where there is a surgery that can get goalies into the NHL....well that will be a thread of its own.  To say the least.

[MAC331]

I believe there is valid reason to believe that, in this day and age, Gillies could be better than ever after his hip surgery.

 

It might take him 3-6 months to get back into form, but that's a side issue.

 

 

The real issue, in my mind, is how common these surgeries are becoming.   And, if Gillies Does get noticeably better, he's starting a trend of goalies who have actually Improved their calibre after the surgery.

 

Which could raise a much Larger question in terms of the position, the net, the equipment, style of play, and where it's all headed.    Because if we Ever get into a situation where there is a surgery that can get goalies into the NHL....well that will be a thread of its own.  To say the least.

I don't get it, are you suggesting hip surgeries will make goalies better ? if so you can't be serious. These surgeries are to get them back so they can even play, where the person takes their abilities from there will be up to them and the experience they gain.

[travel_dude]

I believe there is valid reason to believe that, in this day and age, Gillies could be better than ever after his hip surgery.

 

It might take him 3-6 months to get back into form, but that's a side issue.

 

 

The real issue, in my mind, is how common these surgeries are becoming.   And, if Gillies Does get noticeably better, he's starting a trend of goalies who have actually Improved their calibre after the surgery.

 

Which could raise a much Larger question in terms of the position, the net, the equipment, style of play, and where it's all headed.    Because if we Ever get into a situation where there is a surgery that can get goalies into the NHL....well that will be a thread of its own.  To say the least.

 

Gillies said that he was looking forward to playing a game and being able to walk afterwards.  That's a pretty strong reason to have the surgery.  He would have done it in his final year if he was ok with not playing his final year (junior year) at all.  But he wasn't.

 

An injury is just that.  Either you need to have surgery or not.  Two guys having the same type of surgery isn't a trend.  Having a tall goalie may be an advantage when the equipment size is reduced.   

[DirtyDeeds]

Gillies said that he was looking forward to playing a game and being able to walk afterwards.  That's a pretty strong reason to have the surgery.  He would have done it in his final year if he was ok with not playing his final year (junior year) at all.  But he wasn't.

 

An injury is just that.  Either you need to have surgery or not.  Two guys having the same type of surgery isn't a trend.  Having a tall goalie may be an advantage when the equipment size is reduced.   

Everyone from NHL side that I have read, says the equipment changes are designed to do the opposite. They claim that the changes will benefit the athletic goalies and take away from the goalies who rely mostly on size to make stops.

 

We shall find out quickly I think who can adjust to the first year of multiple changes to be implemented to goalie equipment.

 

I wonder if BT was thinking about this when he (Edit)signed Elliot  trade for Elliot on a 1 year contract. maybe it was in the back of his mind that some goalies might not adjust well to the changes.

[travel_dude]

Everyone from NHL side that I have read, says the equipment changes are designed to do the opposite. They claim that the changes will benefit the athletic goalies and take away from the goalies who rely mostly on size to make stops.

 

We shall find out quickly I think who can adjust to the first year of multiple changes to be implemented to goalie equipment.

 

I wonder if BT was thinking about this when he signed Elliot to a 1 year contract. maybe it was in the back of his mind that some goalies might not adjust well to the changes.

 

Gillies will fill out to match his height a bit more.  The taller goalies will have longer pads than a shorter goalie.  You probably saw the graphic they did with MAF, where it subtracted the sizes of the pads.  He would cover less of the upper part of the net.  He would have less bulk in the middle.  

 

Gillies isn't just a big guy, he is athletic as well.  Having longer legs will enable him to cover the low part of the net without exposing a lot of 5-hole.  

 

BTW, BT didn't sign Elliott at all.  He came with the one-year deal.  They probably want to see how he plays on the team before signing him longer term, but I believe he is their long-term goalie.  The only question I have is his longevity.  Would prefer that his next deal be 3 years, but he hasn't been overplayed so he may have a lot longer that that.  

[DirtyDeeds]

Gillies will fill out to match his height a bit more.  The taller goalies will have longer pads than a shorter goalie.  You probably saw the graphic they did with MAF, where it subtracted the sizes of the pads.  He would cover less of the upper part of the net.  He would have less bulk in the middle.  

 

Gillies isn't just a big guy, he is athletic as well.  Having longer legs will enable him to cover the low part of the net without exposing a lot of 5-hole.  

 

BTW, BT didn't sign Elliott at all.  He came with the one-year deal.  They probably want to see how he plays on the team before signing him longer term, but I believe he is their long-term goalie.  The only question I have is his longevity.  Would prefer that his next deal be 3 years, but he hasn't been overplayed so he may have a lot longer that that.

Fixed that.. 

 

 

Makes no difference in the thought however. Trading for or signing a goalie keeping pad sizes and changes in mind.

[travel_dude]

Fixed that.. 

 

 

Makes no difference in the thought however. Trading for or signing a goalie keeping pad sizes and changes in mind.

 

I could be wrong, but I have always seen Elliott as being an athletic goalie that is also big.  He played less like Hiller (blocking) and more like Ramo (never give up).  BT was also linked to MAF and Bishop, so I don't know how much future pad sizes had a bearing on his decision making.  Do we actually see the changes to pads this season?  If not, then the one year deal he was on doesn't really have any bearing.

 

After the trade, BT discussed the possibility of an extension with Elliott's agent, so you know they have some idea of the cost and interest.

[jjgallow]

I don't get it, are you suggesting hip surgeries will make goalies better ? if so you can't be serious. These surgeries are to get them back so they can even play, where the person takes their abilities from there will be up to them and the experience they gain.

 

Gillies will fill out to match his height a bit more.  The taller goalies will have longer pads than a shorter goalie.  You probably saw the graphic they did with MAF, where it subtracted the sizes of the pads.  He would cover less of the upper part of the net.  He would have less bulk in the middle.  

 

Gillies isn't just a big guy, he is athletic as well.  Having longer legs will enable him to cover the low part of the net without exposing a lot of 5-hole.  

 

BTW, BT didn't sign Elliott at all.  He came with the one-year deal.  They probably want to see how he plays on the team before signing him longer term, but I believe he is their long-term goalie.  The only question I have is his longevity.  Would prefer that his next deal be 3 years, but he hasn't been overplayed so he may have a lot longer that that.  

 

 

I wouldn't go quite as far as to say these surgeries will make goalies better.   But I would come close to it.

 

It is very much in alignment with reconstructive elbow surgeries that baseball players have, but obviously less common.

 

If baseball surgeries are to set any trend, then...yes.   There is a growing concern that they are becoming "performance enhancing surgeries".  It's a thing.

http://breakingmuscle.com/sports/tommy-john-and-baseball-americas-favorite-elbow-surgery

 

 

I'm absolutely Not tying this to Jon Gillies, obviously.  He legitimately needed it, no question.   But 5-10 NHL goalies each year require the same surgery he did, and Most of them perform better afterwards than prior.  It is also becoming more common at an early age with goalies.   And yes, their range of motion after the surgery can be better than it ever was.

 

All I'm saying, is:

 

1.  Very optimistic for Jon Gillies in this day and age.

 

2.   To the point that, in the future, it could become a whole other topic, as it is becoming in other sports.

[travel_dude]

....

 

1.  Very optimistic for Jon Gillies in this day and age.

 

2.   To the point that, in the future, it could become a whole other topic, as it is becoming in other sports.

 

Much like doping, there will always be a certain element of the sporting world that looks to breakthroughs.

 

A baseball player and a hockey player are two different types of athletes; one is one isn't.  A pitcher uses one part of their body.  So, I don't see surgery as any future unless you are talking about Robo-goalie.

[jjgallow]

Much like doping, there will always be a certain element of the sporting world that looks to breakthroughs.

 

A baseball player and a hockey player are two different types of athletes; one is one isn't.  A pitcher uses one part of their body.  So, I don't see surgery as any future unless you are talking about Robo-goalie.

 

hmmmm....

 

[DirtyDeeds]

Speaking of baseball pitchers. The Jays are taking their best young pitcher out of the starting rotation because the analytics says his elbow likely will blow up if he pitches too many innings. So he is slated to soon hit the bullpen where he can be utilized a bit less.

 

My reason for bringing this up is the data people look at it as the thing to do now. Prevention will rule here.

 

How soon before the analysts in hockey start to say goalies need to take (X)games off per year to prevent (X) from happening? I don't know if JJ was thinking along these lines when he was talking operations on the upswing in hockey, but the stats are taking over baseball with the pitchers now. 

[jjgallow]

Speaking of baseball pitchers. The Jays are taking their best young pitcher out of the starting rotation because the analytics says his elbow likely will blow up if he pitches too many innings. So he is slated to soon hit the bullpen where he can be utilized a bit less.

 

My reason for bringing this up is the data people look at it as the thing to do now. Prevention will rule here.

 

How soon before the analysts in hockey start to say goalies need to take (X)games off per year to prevent (X) from happening? I don't know if JJ was thinking along these lines when he was talking operations on the upswing in hockey, but the stats are taking over baseball with the pitchers now. 

 

Totally agree.  And good organizations have been doing this for Years.  years.

[robrob74]

Speaking of baseball pitchers. The Jays are taking their best young pitcher out of the starting rotation because the analytics says his elbow likely will blow up if he pitches too many innings. So he is slated to soon hit the bullpen where he can be utilized a bit less.

My reason for bringing this up is the data people look at it as the thing to do now. Prevention will rule here.

How soon before the analysts in hockey start to say goalies need to take (X)games off per year to prevent (X) from happening? I don't know if JJ was thinking along these lines when he was talking operations on the upswing in hockey, but the stats are taking over baseball with the pitchers now.

I think a prime example is Kipper. We never found a quality back up for him and I think had we done that, he'd have been even better.

we will see if this year's new tandem has the right equation to get the job done. How many will it require for both for us to win.

Really it is a win-win for both goalies with a roughly 50-30 split.

[MAC331]

I think a prime example is Kipper. We never found a quality back up for him and I think had we done that, he'd have been even better.

we will see if this year's new tandem has the right equation to get the job done. How many will it require for both for us to win.

Really it is a win-win for both goalies with a roughly 50-30 split.

I think people need to realize being a back up goalie is one of the hardest jobs in hockey.

[cross]

Speaking of baseball pitchers. The Jays are taking their best young pitcher out of the starting rotation because the analytics says his elbow likely will blow up if he pitches too many innings. So he is slated to soon hit the bullpen where he can be utilized a bit less.

 

My reason for bringing this up is the data people look at it as the thing to do now. Prevention will rule here.

 

How soon before the analysts in hockey start to say goalies need to take (X)games off per year to prevent (X) from happening? I don't know if JJ was thinking along these lines when he was talking operations on the upswing in hockey, but the stats are taking over baseball with the pitchers now. 

 

 

I get where you are going but your example isn't a great one. In baseball there is actually no definitive data on the subject, and in fact there are as many studies that say there is no impact between how many innings you throw and arm injuries. Bascially for every study or analytics that says it will lead to injury there is one that says there isn't and in fact some have argued that the rise in arm injuries is actually due to too many young pictchers being kept on innings limits and not building up muscle base. It's, very much an inexact science which is why there is so much debate around it. 

 

I think its impossible to apply analytics or data to injuries. No 2 players in any sport or any situation are alike, be it their gene pool, training regiment, game situations etc they ae never alike. So for me to try and draw a link that playing X amount of games will lead to this certain type of injury is a falasy. 

 

Goalies specifically, both Demko and Gilles played in the NCAA system where typically the starter plays less than 40 games and both got hurt. yet then you have guys come out of the CHL system who typically will start more than 40 and sometimes 50 games a year and they arn't having the same issues. I have no doubt, and fully agree, that data and studies will continue to help us understand injuries but I think drawing a conclusive link to games played = certain injury risk will likely never be fully supported. Too many external variables you cannot control. 

[kehatch]

I agree with Cross. Teams are moving away from 60+ game goalies to strong tandems. But that is (in part) to mitigate the impact of an injury, not to limit injuries.

I also think trying to make a couple of surgical hip repairs to fix injury = possible trend to have surgery to improve performance a ridiculous leap. Especially when the "trend" is one young NHL goalie and one guy with around 10 AHL gamed played.

[DirtyDeeds]

Tandems?

 

Maybe except with the upcoming expansion draft it will be tough to protect both goalies. Add to that how difficult it is to find one goalie you can run with let alone 2.