Goaltending

[cccsberg]

Goalies coming off torn ACL's are not a high priority for me. Either give them longer away to heal or let another team recuperate them. 

 

I dont look at Ramo if I have the option to get: Ward, Reimer, Chad Johnson, Enroth, Raanta or even a reasonable deal to get Niemi from Dallas or someone elses RFA like a Mrazek. As such I think there is probably 10 other options to look at before we look at Ramo. 

Not sure about ACL's and impact on goalies.  Certainly its a serious injury and it seems the recuperation time will take until late October or November at the earliest.  That alone makes Ramo a bit of a challenge and unlikely the complete answer.  The good thing about him is we have a history and know he can (could) provide league-average, if not better, and he won't cost us any other prospects to acquire.

 

I seriously doubt Reimer will be available for 3 years, much less 2 years, and for fairly high dollars especially if he continues to do well with SJS.  In fact, if he does I'd expect him to re-sign there.  I don't see any other UFAs as any better than Ramo, if even equal to.  

[FlamesLogic]

Not sure about ACL's and impact on goalies.  Certainly its a serious injury and it seems the recuperation time will take until late October or November at the earliest.  That alone makes Ramo a bit of a challenge and unlikely the complete answer.  The good thing about him is we have a history and know he can (could) provide league-average, if not better, and he won't cost us any other prospects to acquire.

 

I seriously doubt Reimer will be available for 3 years, much less 2 years, and for fairly high dollars especially if he continues to do well with SJS.  In fact, if he does I'd expect him to re-sign there.  I don't see any other UFAs as any better than Ramo, if even equal to.  

Equal to Ramo before ACL tear. Who knows how that will impact him especially with it happening fairly late in the season. 10 months to recover to playable form most cases and thats just playable. Thats not 100%. Ramo likely wont be 100% until 2017-2018.

I agree, I dont know what offers Reimer will get but there are really only two teams willing to pay more than 3M for a goalie. Us and Carolina. Maybe florida opens the wallet a bit to have a good backup behind Luongo and his 4.5M but I think they are looking more at the Enroth types as well if they can be had for Brian Elliot or Jake Allen money (2.5M).

Cam Ward and Reimer are the two bigger names. Unless someone wants to overpay for one of them to be a strong backup we are the only people that might put say 2x4.5M on the table for one of them.

[MAC331]

Equal to Ramo before ACL tear. Who knows how that will impact him especially with it happening fairly late in the season. 10 months to recover to playable form most cases and thats just playable. Thats not 100%. Ramo likely wont be 100% until 2017-2018.

I agree, I dont know what offers Reimer will get but there are really only two teams willing to pay more than 3M for a goalie. Us and Carolina. Maybe florida opens the wallet a bit to have a good backup behind Luongo and his 4.5M but I think they are looking more at the Enroth types as well if they can be had for Brian Elliot or Jake Allen money (2.5M).

Cam Ward and Reimer are the two bigger names. Unless someone wants to overpay for one of them to be a strong backup we are the only people that might put say 2x4.5M on the table for one of them.

I agree Ramo will be proving his play in the minors before he sees any NHL action or 3M contract. I would like to see the Flames move on and get a good tandem in place for our net.

[The_People1]

My problem with Ramo is we don't need "Ramo".  We need "better than Ramo".

 

So, if he comes back from his ACL tear and is able to regain his previous form, that's not even good enough.  The question is, can he come back from ACL tear and be even better?  Will a 30-year-old coming off ACL tear be better than he used to be? 

[FlamesLogic]

My problem with Ramo is we don't need "Ramo".  We need "better than Ramo".

 

So, if he comes back from his ACL tear and is able to regain his previous form, that's not even good enough.  The question is, can he come back from ACL tear and be even better?  Will a 30-year-old coming off ACL tear be better than he used to be? 

Odds are no. I think the best place he will find a home is behind Luongo in Florida at say 2M. Gives him more time to rehabilitate and gives the panthers a decent stop gap at a good price in the event Luongo gets a major injury

[darth_henning]

Realistically we're not going to get much "better than Ramo" at the price we can afford to pay this year. We'll get right around league average, which is about what an un-injured Ramo would provide. 

 

Lets not get ahead of ourselves on that. 

 

Right now, we're signing a stop-gap for two years until Ortio proves he can play starter, or if he can't until Gillies is ready. Were not going to get top of the league goaltending at 4.5 million so lets not kid ourselves there. 

 

 

As for Ramo, I like the guy, but ACL surgery is not one I take a chance on. We're already going to have to take a chance on Ortio to see what he has, so we need a dependable NHL goaltender as the other half of the pairing. That eliminates Ramo. 

 

Had Ramo not been injured I'd feel differently. But then again, if he hadn't been we wouldn't be getting the look at Ortio we're getting now. 

[MAC331]

Realistically we're not going to get much "better than Ramo" at the price we can afford to pay this year. We'll get right around league average, which is about what an un-injured Ramo would provide. 

 

Lets not get ahead of ourselves on that. 

 

Right now, we're signing a stop-gap for two years until Ortio proves he can play starter, or if he can't until Gillies is ready. Were not going to get top of the league goaltending at 4.5 million so lets not kid ourselves there. 

 

 

As for Ramo, I like the guy, but ACL surgery is not one I take a chance on. We're already going to have to take a chance on Ortio to see what he has, so we need a dependable NHL goaltender as the other half of the pairing. That eliminates Ramo. 

 

Had Ramo not been injured I'd feel differently. But then again, if he hadn't been we wouldn't be getting the look at Ortio we're getting now. 

I don't think price equates to how good a goaltender can or will be. All players play their way into the money and first of all they have to have that opportunity. they may have the talent and be making 1.5M. everything I see of Ortio is looking like he has all kinds of positives.

[FlamesLogic]

I don't think price equates to how good a goaltender can or will be. All players play their way into the money and first of all they have to have that opportunity. they may have the talent and be making 1.5M. everything I see of Ortio is looking like he has all kinds of positives.

Exactly, infact contract increases expectations which in turn puts stress on goalie. 

 

imo let lets others chase the "names" in Cam Ward or Reimer, give me Chad Johnson any day. Raised in Calgary, played in Brooks. Consistent stats across multiple teams. Good goalie frame at 6'3". Can take a contract where he plays the lead in a tandem with ortio at 50 ish games a season. Probably wont demand an overpayment on his contract and may be had in the 3-4.5 range depending on term. 

[420since1974]

Chad Johnson is 29 years old and has only played 91 games in the NHL over 6 seasons.

 

He is currently finishing his 5th contract (salary of $1.6M) and will be a UFA.

 

His last 3 seasons:

2013/2014 - Boston - 27 GP, 2.10 GAA, .925 SV%

2014/2015 - NY Islanders - 19 GP, 3.08 GAA, .885 SV%

2015/2016 - Buffalo - 35 GP, 2.42 GAA, .918 SV%

 

He looks like a NHL backup who has had one good, one bad, & one decent season.

Maybe he can play 50 + games/season and maintain decent numbers, but it would definitely be a gamble.

 

Calgary may be taking a chance on Orito as their NHL backup next season.

Do the Flames want to be gambling on both their goalies next year?

[darth_henning]

NO. Definitely not. 

 

Ortio is a definite backup, who MIGHT be able to elevate himself to tandem or starter. But that's an unknown. 

 

The other guy we bring in has to be a sure thing. It's likely 3 years before Gillies reaches the NHL. We need one stable starter until then. I hope its Ortio, and he's certainly starting to make a case for that, but that's no garuntee so we need another option sitting ready to go that is more of a sure thing. 

[420since1974]

Agreed.

 

I don't envy BT as he looks for a goalie.

 

The pickings for a starting goalie seem slim in the free agent market, the best ones are RFAs that will surely be re-signed by their teams.

[rickross]

I think they'll be a benefit to being so goaltender hungry right now. I've said it before but I still think the lack of elite goaltending will only strengthen the play of our defensive, by default. It's also going to force the Flames to be innovative in their search, perhaps it leads us to that "diamond in the rough" or a cheaper and higher ceiling then say J. Reimer for example

[jjgallow]

If we want to have an elite starting goalie at an affordable price,

 

We will have to take a risk.  Or, a few risks.

 

 

Signing a goaltender approaching 30 who was once elite, in the hopes that they can be again....

 

That's not a small risk.  That's a big one.

 

Avoiding a young unproven starter, won't avoid the risk.

[conundrumed]

There are definitely no easy answers.

I half think Ramo will be re-signed.

It's the cheapest route.

 

And to stress this once again, we can't chalk up all of our problems to the lowest common denominator, goaltending.

Look at our roster, stop over-rating it.

Rosters made Niemi and Crawford, amongst others.

If we only want 2 yrs on Ward or Reimer....buy more time for ourselves...it'll be costly.

[kehatch]

If we want to have an elite starting goalie at an affordable price,

We will have to take a risk. Or, a few risks.

Signing a goaltender approaching 30 who was once elite, in the hopes that they can be again....

That's not a small risk. That's a big one.

Avoiding a young unproven starter, won't avoid the risk.

You have your young unproven starter already JJ in Ortio. Your not asking for one. Your asking for two. At worst the vet is an insurance policy to give us passable tending if Ortio doesn't work out.

But I disagree with your doom and gloom scenario regarding veterans. Halak has been a great compliment to Griess. Dubnyk turned things around in Minnesota. It's early but Reimer is looking like a strong tandem with Jones. There is a long list of success stories. There isn't any reason someone like Varlamov couldn't be a great tandem with Ortio.

The Flames aren't going into next season with Ortio and another unproven rookie. Nor should they.

There are definitely no easy answers.

I half think Ramo will be re-signed.

It's the cheapest route.

And to stress this once again, we can't chalk up all of our problems to the lowest common denominator, goaltending.

Look at our roster, stop over-rating it.

Rosters made Niemi and Crawford, amongst others.

If we only want 2 yrs on Ward or Reimer....buy more time for ourselves...it'll be costly.

Crawford is one of the top goalies in the league. Niemi was never fantastic. Plenty of goalies fail behind good rosters. I do agree that goaltending isn't our only problem. But this season it has been our greatest.

[robrob1974]

There are definitely no easy answers.

I half think Ramo will be re-signed.

It's the cheapest route.

 

And to stress this once again, we can't chalk up all of our problems to the lowest common denominator, goaltending.

Look at our roster, stop over-rating it.

Rosters made Niemi and Crawford, amongst others.

If we only want 2 yrs on Ward or Reimer....buy more time for ourselves...it'll be costly.

 

I agree. I think a lot of us tend to over-rate our players. They're using this non-playoffs as a learning tool again by concentrating on D which is now helping our Goaltending as much as the Goaltending is helping players be a bit more comfortable to take some chances. 

 

I also think that those rosters made the Crawford and Niemi in Chicago. But that allowed Crawford to get better while playing the position. With Detroit, they made Osgood better too, which also made Osgood play the position well. 

[FlamesLogic]

 

Chad Johnson is 29 years old and has only played 91 games in the NHL over 6 seasons.

 

He is currently finishing his 5th contract (salary of $1.6M) and will be a UFA.

 

His last 3 seasons:

2013/2014 - Boston - 27 GP, 2.10 GAA, .925 SV%

2014/2015 - NY Islanders - 19 GP, 3.08 GAA, .885 SV%

2015/2016 - Buffalo - 35 GP, 2.42 GAA, .918 SV%

 

He looks like a NHL backup who has had one good, one bad, & one decent season.

Maybe he can play 50 + games/season and maintain decent numbers, but it would definitely be a gamble.

 

Calgary may be taking a chance on Orito as their NHL backup next season.

Do the Flames want to be gambling on both their goalies next year?

 

For what its worth hes a 6'3" goalie with better career numbers than Reimer.

And the fact that Carolina didnt deal UFA ward in a year where they dealt Eric Staal leads me to believe that there is a better than not chance that Carolina will resign him.

 

Now who is left with more games of experience that isnt on a downward trend or with better numbers that has played 100 games?

Its not as much of a risk as you might think. Ramo is only sitting at 150 games with a torn ACL and worse numbers than Reimer (2.85 and .906)

[DirtyDeeds]

I recall early on with Price that he was struggling and there was serious talk about trading him and going elsewhere but management stuck with him and allowed him to mature into a solid goalie.  I believe Ortio has the potential to do the same, growing into a solid starter and we should allow him to do so before dismissing him and undercutting him and his confidence by bringing in another.

 

Although you never like injuries, the Ramo injury was a Godsend as it forced the Flames to give Ortio a serious shot (as Hiller was garbage...).  It cam around TDL and is kind of like an "own-trade" for a hot prospect goalie who we are now evaluating.  Hopefully he can keep it up and continue to grow into the role.

Very well said, and if they re-sign Ortio and Ramo while keeping all our other assets then we are likely good for next year and can focus on other pressing matters.

I don't see how you can go into next season with Ramo/Ortio as your goalie combo. They both played so badly here at lengthy times this season, they were put through waivers and no one claimed them. Ortio also started off slow last season on the Farm. I have heard some talk of him not practising well enough.

 

All you are doing with going into next season with the Ramo/Ortio combo is setting yourself up for a possible failure. You put your players in a position to win, not hope they will.

[MAC331]

NO. Definitely not. 

 

Ortio is a definite backup, who MIGHT be able to elevate himself to tandem or starter. But that's an unknown. 

 

The other guy we bring in has to be a sure thing. It's likely 3 years before Gillies reaches the NHL. We need one stable starter until then. I hope its Ortio, and he's certainly starting to make a case for that, but that's no garuntee so we need another option sitting ready to go that is more of a sure thing. 

I'm not even sure what the goalie staging of yours even means. Good luck with the "sure thing" approach.

[kehatch]

I don't see how you can go into next season with Ramo/Ortio as your goalie combo. They both played so badly here at lengthy times this season, they were put through waivers and no one claimed them. Ortio also started off slow last season on the Farm. I have heard some talk of him not practising well enough.

All you are doing with going into next season with the Ramo/Ortio combo is setting yourself up for a possible failure. You put your players in a position to win, not hope they will.

I mostly agree. With the caveat that if they can't find an upgrade to Ramo they might not have much of a choice.

On another note and not directed to DD, we are all assuming Ortio is earning a contract with the Flames. But what if they turn his recent success into trade value to bring in someone like Murray?

[MAC331]

I mostly agree. With the caveat that if they can't find an upgrade to Ramo they might not have much of a choice.

On another note and not directed to DD, we are all assuming Ortio is earning a contract with the Flames. But what if they turn his recent success into trade value to bring in someone like Murray?

That scenario is totally possible that we see two new goaltenders for next season. Would love to see Murray come here.

[cross16]

I mostly agree. With the caveat that if they can't find an upgrade to Ramo they might not have much of a choice.

On another note and not directed to DD, we are all assuming Ortio is earning a contract with the Flames. But what if they turn his recent success into trade value to bring in someone like Murray?

 

I'm all for that as I like Murray's upside more than Ortio's, but I still find it hard to see the Pens moving Murray. His timeline, in terms of contract and readiness, lines up very well with what should be a declining MAF. 

 

I don't mind using Ortio via trade so long as its for the right return.

[JTech780]

I'm all for that as I like Murray's upside more than Ortio's, but I still find it hard to see the Pens moving Murray. His timeline, in terms of contract and readiness, lines up very well with what should be a declining MAF.

I don't mind using Ortio via trade so long as its for the right return.

I agree. I would live to get Murray, but with Zatkoff a UFA next year, Murray can slide in and play back up or even platoon a bit with Fleury.

[kehatch]

Murray might not be available, but having another goalie to send back increases your chances of brining on another young goalie.

For the record, I am not saying they will or should do this. But if the organization is not convinced his recent performance is a step and instead thinks it is a blip they might try to translate it into another player.

[darth_henning]

I don't see how you can go into next season with Ramo/Ortio as your goalie combo. They both played so badly here at lengthy times this season, they were put through waivers and no one claimed them. Ortio also started off slow last season on the Farm. I have heard some talk of him not practising well enough.

 

All you are doing with going into next season with the Ramo/Ortio combo is setting yourself up for a possible failure. You put your players in a position to win, not hope they will.

 

All of the TWO games Ortio played before being sent down. You and I have very different definitions of "lengthy".