Goaltending

[darth_henning]

Oh I won't argue that this season has been anything but consistent. Even in the AHL. 

 

But he has shown flashes of talent there, some games with great numbers, others with numbers as bad as Hiller's numbers this year. 

 

But honestly? Lets s give him 5 games or so and see what he has. If he craps the bed, then we can cut him loose in the off season. But if he can even do better than Hiller, he's more worth keeping around due to his price. 

 

Goal really just needs a stop-gap for a season or two until Gillies and/or MacDonald are ready. 

[DirtyDeeds]

Oh I won't argue that this season has been anything but consistent. Even in the AHL. 

 

But he has shown flashes of talent there, some games with great numbers, others with numbers as bad as Hiller's numbers this year. 

 

But honestly? Lets s give him 5 games or so and see what he has. If he craps the bed, then we can cut him loose in the off season. But if he can even do better than Hiller, he's more worth keeping around due to his price. 

 

Goal really just needs a stop-gap for a season or two until Gillies and/or MacDonald are ready. 

This is where you and I disagree. We don't need a stopgap for a year or two. We need a #1 Goaltender now, today preferably even if we have settled on not making the playoffs.  

 

I don't want to go into another season hoping one of our goaltenders is going to step up. I don't want to go into next seasons camp with a multitude of goalies hoping one will compete his way to the #1 spot. I don't want to go with the thought that maybe Gilles or MacD will be ready in a couple years.

 

Gilles and MacD are in development. There are no guarantees that they will be ready in 2 years. 

And what if they aren't? What if we go with Ortio and he stays the same for the two years?  and neither Gilles or Mac D are ready?? 

[jjgallow]

 

Goal really just needs a stop-gap for a season or two until Gillies and/or MacDonald are ready. 

 

 

This is where you and I disagree. We don't need a stopgap for a year or two. We need a #1 Goaltender now, today preferably even if we have settled on not making the playoffs.  

 

 

 

This is where I disagree with both of you

 

The Flames are rebuilding, and require patient fans.

 

Rebuilds aren't rocket science.   Said team transitions from an older veteran lineup, to a younger, talented roster with more prospects.

 

The goal is to build a Stanley Cup contender.  Actually, the goal is to win the Stanley Cup.

 

 

We don't need a #1 goaltender now, or next year.  If we're not a serious cup contender, then we simply don't have immediate needs.  We need a Stanley Cup winning goaltender that is young enough now to be in his prime when this team matures.

 

That's my philosophy, anyway.

 

 

Where it takes me, in some ways aligns with your thoughts.   In other ways not.

 

Ramo/Hiller should be sold off or let go.  Have always believed this, from the moment they were acquired.  They are not part of our Stanley cup winning team.   They are creating a glut in our goaltender development.  And I'm not sure they're helping win games either.

 

Ortio needs to be given a chance.  15 NHL games.  Have said this for two years now.  Opinion won't change on it.   He hasn't been managed well enough to evaluate his play imho.   Where we DO align, is what would happen After these 15 games.

 

Gillies/MacDonald need to be given every opportunity and developed well.

 

We should be in the market for another great goaltending prospect.   And we should expect a good deal, because young goalies are voodoo.

 

 

So...basically, sell off the older players and acquire younger players.  It's not quite that simple, but it's a fundamental concept that we sometimes manage to miss.

[darth_henning]

JJ put it in better terms than I did. 

 

Right now, a #1 goalie isn't an immediate need. Do we need one when we're ready for the cup? Yes. Do we need on this season or next? No. 

 

If Gillies or MacD aren't ready in two years, THEN we trade some assets to acquire one. Until then, we need some decent tending that gives the rest of our team time to grow and mature into the stanley cup contenders that they should be without worrying about being scored on 6 times per game. 

 

 

We need a decent tender (or two) for the next couple years. That may be Ramo/Ortio. That could be Ortio and someone else, or it could be two guys we don't have. 

 

But trading for a stanley cup tender right now is unnecessary. Goalies can come onto a team and play at their level basically immediately once they have a couple games to figure out where the holes are from the D-men in front of them. 

 

 

Forwards and D-men need time to develop chemistry. 

[cross16]

Flames are done rebuilding IMO. They have their core, are about to sign it and will get another top 10 pick this year. They need to start winning, not trying to throw darts at dartboards trying to find a goalie that might help them in 3, 4 or 5 years. I'm not saying pick up any goalie, but they need to be aggressive in finding an answer now and then keep developing Gilles/McDonald etc in behind them

 

All you have to do it look up north at Edmonton and see what happens when you keep rebuilding every year and also what happens when you have crappy goaltending. Don't let your franchise learn how to lose EVER

 

Edit: When I say done their rebuild its because to me you are rebuilding when you are shipping out assets and trying to build a Core. I think the Flames have built their core, will add another top 10 pick, and now just need assets to fill that out. That's not rebuilding IMO, but I get others may have a different definition.

[kehatch]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Flames are done rebuilding. But I agree with the general premise of Cross post.

Besides, how many times has a rebuild been derailed by failure to find a goalie? Philly. Edmonton. Toronto. Etc. You don't start your goalie search once everything else is in place because it can take a long time to find what your looking for. If your banking on a prospect two or more seasons out to be your starting goalie your nuts. If he turns out and you already have a great goalie then that's a great problem to have.

[redfire11]

I still think Ramo is our #1 and should be until a prospect forces him out. He is no Price (complete game changer) but he gives us those timely saves and allows us to compete. We are averaging 30 shots against per game. Once our defense starts playing like they SHOULD be playing I could see goalie prospects come in and actually make a difference forcing Ramo out or play better. But hopefuuly he is back soon.

[robrob1974]

Was it goaltending that has killed the oilers and the leafs? I think it has been the whole make-up of their teams. Toronto had the worst possession numbers over the years. I don't care how good your goalie is, if the other team has the puck more often than you then you're probably going to lose more than you win.

I don't think goaltending has been the problem. It is a problem, but not the only one.

A good goalie will be wasted if it hides our flaws. I believe we need better goalies, but I also believe we still have a long way to go before we are contenders and far from the end of the build.

Our players are going to get better, yes, but so are edmontons and Arizonas. It's still going to be a dogfight to get in.

We need to keep building and that includes getting a good goalie.

[xstrike]

Or we could just play 6 players at all times with no tendy, just have Russell transition to goalie when we are in our own end. We try to block so many shots anyways might as well have 6 players doing it instead of 5.

I don't think the NHL would let us do last man back is the goaltender rules.

I still think Ramo is our #1 and should be until a prospect forces him out. He is no Price (complete game changer) but he gives us those timely saves and allows us to compete. We are averaging 30 shots against per game. Once our defense starts playing like they SHOULD be playing I could see goalie prospects come in and actually make a difference forcing Ramo out or play better. But hopefuuly he is back soon.

We could target Mr. Andersen by way of a three team exchange so we pay less.

[darth_henning]

I'm not arguing that we don't need better goaltending. 

 

My question is whether we take a 4 mil stop-gap (like Ramo) or go to break the bank on a cup winning tender NOW. 

 

 

The thing is because of five vetran contracts (Bollig, Stajan, Wideman, Engellend, Smid) taking up 16 million of our cap (not to mention Raymond's 3 mil burried in the minors) we are limited on what we can add this year. 

 

We can't afford a top end goaltender without either sacrificing on our need for a #1 RW or #3/4 D man, which I think are more urgent needs. 

 

We can get by with league average tending, if we get better at forward and defence. But even Price won't help the team if we're lacking scoring or have poor D coverage. 

 

When those contracts are traded or come off the book naturally at the end of next season? Sure, go after a top goalie. When we can afford it. 

 

 

Even as it is, its going to be nigh on impossible to sign a team with any improvements and be under cap: 

 

Gaudreau 7.5 Monahan 6.5 ????? 5

Ferland 0.825 Bennett 0.925 Frolik 4.3

Bouma 2.2 Backlund 3.575 Poirier 0.863333

Granlund 1.2 Stajan 3.125 Colborne 1.3

Grant 1 Bollig 1.25      

 

FORWARD TOTAL:  39.56333      

 

Brodie 4.65 Giordano 6.75    

??? 3.5 Hamilton 5.75    

Wideman 5.25 Engellend 2.916666    

Smid 3.5        

 

DEFENCE TOTAL:  32.31667        

 

Ramo 4.5        

Ortio 1      

 

GOALIE TOTAL 5.5                  

 

ROSTER SIZE:  77.38      

CAP (ESTIMATE): 73    

 

 

Even assuming relatively budget signings for a 1RW and 3/4D. That puts us about 4 mil over cap unless we find a way to shed salary. 

 

Where do we find money to ALSO pay for a top end goalie? 

 

We don't. 

[MAC331]

I'm not arguing that we don't need better goaltending. 

 

My question is whether we take a 4 mil stop-gap (like Ramo) or go to break the bank on a cup winning tender NOW. 

 

 

The thing is because of five vetran contracts (Bollig, Stajan, Wideman, Engellend, Smid) taking up 16 million of our cap (not to mention Raymond's 3 mil burried in the minors) we are limited on what we can add this year. 

 

We can't afford a top end goaltender without either sacrificing on our need for a #1 RW or #3/4 D man, which I think are more urgent needs. 

 

We can get by with league average tending, if we get better at forward and defence. But even Price won't help the team if we're lacking scoring or have poor D coverage. 

 

When those contracts are traded or come off the book naturally at the end of next season? Sure, go after a top goalie. When we can afford it. 

 

 

Even as it is, its going to be nigh on impossible to sign a team with any improvements and be under cap: 

 

Gaudreau 7.5 Monahan 6.5 ????? 5

Ferland 0.825 Bennett 0.925 Frolik 4.3

Bouma 2.2 Backlund 3.575 Poirier 0.863333

Granlund 1.2 Stajan 3.125 Colborne 1.3

Grant 1 Bollig 1.25      

 

FORWARD TOTAL:  39.56333      

 

Brodie 4.65 Giordano 6.75    

??? 3.5 Hamilton 5.75    

Wideman 5.25 Engellend 2.916666    

Smid 3.5        

 

DEFENCE TOTAL:  32.31667        

 

Ramo 4.5        

Ortio 1      

 

GOALIE TOTAL 5.5                  

 

ROSTER SIZE:  77.38      

CAP (ESTIMATE): 73    

 

 

Even assuming relatively budget signings for a 1RW and 3/4D. That puts us about 4 mil over cap unless we find a way to shed salary. 

 

Where do we find money to ALSO pay for a top end goalie? 

 

We don't. 

I would say at the end of this season the door is wide open for the goalie search either by trade or FA. Personally I would like to see a young goalie on the cusp of contributing at the NHL level that will grow with this group.

[The_People1]

Just heard on Fan960, the Flames rank 3rd in terms of money spent on goaltending this season... ouch.

[tincup1]

Just heard on Fan960, the Flames rank 3rd in terms of money spent on goaltending this season... ouch.

 

That is a big ouch !  I guess that what happens when you have to go for UFAs for the top 2 spots.  Time to stack up on prospects and picks....and maybe some GT coaching.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I'm hoping the flames can get on the big Finnish kids to play the right side and then from there we go on looking for a goalie like Anderson or maybe a free agent as we will have the money to spare. I think depending on where we draft our top 6 forward or top 4 d man problem will most definitely be solved.

[The_People1]

I'm hoping the flames can get on the big Finnish kids to play the right side and then from there we go on looking for a goalie like Anderson or maybe a free agent as we will have the money to spare. I think depending on where we draft our top 6 forward or top 4 d man problem will most definitely be solved.

 

Best case this summer is we land Hamonic in a trade that doesn't cost us our Big 3 on D, draft one of the two big Finns to play RW, and then somehow acquire Fredrik Andersen.  That would be the ultimate hat trick for BT.

[AlbertaBoy12]

Best case this summer is we land Hamonic in a trade that doesn't cost us our Big 3 on D, draft one of the two big Finns to play RW, and then somehow acquire Fredrik Andersen.  That would be the ultimate hat trick for BT.

Haha that would be a dream, it's not that far our of the realm of possibility. Although we may have to look at a different top 4 dman, I'm just not sure who.

[cross16]

Was it goaltending that has killed the oilers and the leafs? I think it has been the whole make-up of their teams. Toronto had the worst possession numbers over the years. I don't care how good your goalie is, if the other team has the puck more often than you then you're probably going to lose more than you win.

I don't think goaltending has been the problem. It is a problem, but not the only one.

A good goalie will be wasted if it hides our flaws. I believe we need better goalies, but I also believe we still have a long way to go before we are contenders and far from the end of the build.

Our players are going to get better, yes, but so are edmontons and Arizonas. It's still going to be a dogfight to get in.

We need to keep building and that includes getting a good goalie.

 

I've never understood this point of view at all. A good goalie does not hide flaws it just bails you out from time to time which IMO is exaclty what you want. Do you really want the puck to wind up in the net every time the Flames make a mistake so they can learn from it? Like a coach and players don't know there are issues unless you have such bad goaltending that just about every mistake winds up in your net?

 

The Flames are dead last in save percentage in the NHL and have no goalies in the top 30 in save %. Goaltending without question is the number 1 issue plaguing this team right now and personally, I don't think its close. You are completely sunk in the NHL if you can't get a save now and then and the Flames just don't get that this year. Ramo was decent for 2 months but early season Ramo and Hiller have been atrocious. You can't win consistantly with goaltending like that. 

[JTech780]

If we don't improve the goaltending next year we are right back in the same position we are this year.

It really feels like we are spinning our wheels this year, and a lot if it is because we don't have that true number 1 goalie that can pull us out of the mud.

If we want to be a playoff team next year we need to dramatically improve our goaltending, otherwise I think we will be stuck in rebuilding limbo.

Andersen out of Anaheim is an option, but I think we would have to overpay to get him, as I doubt Anaheim would be willing to trade a number 1 goalie within the division. Much like Vancouver with Schneider.

A couple of names that haven't been mentioned are Pavelec and Phillip Grubauer.

Pavelec has one more year at $3.9mill and is 28 years old. I could be wrong but I think Winnipeg would probably like to move his contract out and go with Hellebuyck. He put up good numbers last year, this year hasn't been great, with him dealing with injuries. I think he might be worth taking a gamble on and with only one year remaining on the contract you can move on if it doesn't work out.

Washington is probably reluctant to move Grubauer seeing as he is signed for another season at $750,000. He has put up very good numbers at every level. There is a risk that the team in front of him is inflating his numbers. I think if you can get him and play him more along with a vet like Pavelec you might find a diamond in the rough. I think he is kind of under the radar a bit so I doubt it would cost as much as what LA got for Martin Jones, but I see it as a similar situation.

[travel_dude]

If we don't improve the goaltending next year we are right back in the same position we are this year.

It really feels like we are spinning our wheels this year, and a lot if it is because we don't have that true number 1 goalie that can pull us out of the mud.

If we want to be a playoff team next year we need to dramatically improve our goaltending, otherwise I think we will be stuck in rebuilding limbo.

Andersen out of Anaheim is an option, but I think we would have to overpay to get him, as I doubt Anaheim would be willing to trade a number 1 goalie within the division. Much like Vancouver with Schneider.

A couple of names that haven't been mentioned are Pavelec and Phillip Grubauer.

Pavelec has one more year at $3.9mill and is 28 years old. I could be wrong but I think Winnipeg would probably like to move his contract out and go with Hellebuyck. He put up good numbers last year, this year hasn't been great, with him dealing with injuries. I think he might be worth taking a gamble on and with only one year remaining on the contract you can move on if it doesn't work out.

Washington is probably reluctant to move Grubauer seeing as he is signed for another season at $750,000. He has put up very good numbers at every level. There is a risk that the team in front of him is inflating his numbers. I think if you can get him and play him more along with a vet like Pavelec you might find a diamond in the rough. I think he is kind of under the radar a bit so I doubt it would cost as much as what LA got for Martin Jones, but I see it as a similar situation.

 

I wonder about the real cost of Anderson.  How many teams are looking for a starter?  You can ask all you want if it's a sellers market.  Not so much if it is a buyers market or teams looking for goalie depth for the playoffs.  They aren't as willing to send big assets unless it's for a starter.  Anderson is a pending RFA, so there are positives and negatives to trading for him.  He is due a fairly big raise or a walkaway.  Are there teams willing to spend big for a rental or a possibly expensive re-sign?  Maybe one or two teams at most.

[rickross]

I'm thinking along the same lines as JJGallow..of course you always want a true #1 goalie but at this stage of the rebuild we don't need a true #1. I'm fine with our D playing with more of an edge knowing the goalie might not always bail them out. It will force everyone to up their game, we've been touted to have one of the best D corps in the NHL..let them prove it. If no worthy opportunities to improve our goalie position arise , I don't consider Ramo a bad option..he's proven he can be "the guy" in some fashion this year and last. Besides we don't really have the $ for a true number #1 right now

[robrob1974]

I get that our save percentages are low. How much of that is from the first few months? How much from recently? How much from Hiller or from Ramo?

I think the save% is a reflection of how poor the team is playing in front of our goalies. Is it the chicken or the egg! We can go around in circles. The team isn't playing well enough for our save% to go up.

Untimely give aways. Poor zone coverage. Poor possession numbers. I think it is all encompassing from the players and the goalies.

I don't care if we have one of the best goalies, I don't think it helps if the team is playing the way ours has been all year. Could we have a few extra points, maybe, but we will never know.

I hate that people tend to throw goalies under the bus when it's a team game. Look at when we had Kipper. How many times would our D just stand there and watch the other team play? If the other team is going to be in our end more often, I don't think save% are going to go down.

[The_People1]

I wonder what's Hiller's record against the Canucks in the past two seasons.  It must be something like 10W-2L or something.  If he played the Canucks 82-games a year, then he'd be a 65-win goalie. 

[cross16]

I get that our save percentages are low. How much of that is from the first few months? How much from recently? How much from Hiller or from Ramo?

I think the save% is a reflection of how poor the team is playing in front of our goalies. Is it the chicken or the egg! We can go around in circles. The team isn't playing well enough for our save% to go up.

 

 

 

Ramo had about a month of playing at .920 save percentage, but if you exclude the first month or so he sit at about .918 or so which is league average. The Flames as a team are below .900 so you cant say its just because of the first month or so. The fact is the Flames, for outside of a month, have not gotten anything more than league average goaltending and far more than often get below average goaltender. I don't care if you have the best D core in the world in front of a below avg goalie you are not going to win games. 

 

I get there are issues, but I don't even think you need stats to show that the Flames have gotten pretty bad goaltending this season you just have to watch and see that they just don't get key saves at all. YOu can bring in all the defenders you want but your goalie needs to give you a chance to win every night and I would say for the most part this season, Flames have not gotten that out of their goalies. 

[jjgallow]

Flames are done rebuilding IMO. They have their core, are about to sign it and will get another top 10 pick this year. They need to start winning, not trying to throw darts at dartboards trying to find a goalie that might help them in 3, 4 or 5 years. I'm not saying pick up any goalie, but they need to be aggressive in finding an answer now and then keep developing Gilles/McDonald etc in behind them

 

All you have to do it look up north at Edmonton and see what happens when you keep rebuilding every year and also what happens when you have crappy goaltending. Don't let your franchise learn how to lose EVER

 

Edit: When I say done their rebuild its because to me you are rebuilding when you are shipping out assets and trying to build a Core. I think the Flames have built their core, will add another top 10 pick, and now just need assets to fill that out. That's not rebuilding IMO, but I get others may have a different definition.

 

So, I really need to respectfully (and I do mean respectfully) disagree with almost everything in this post on a fundamental level, and a factual level, and by the contradictions.

 

First and foremost:  We are Not done rebuilding.  At all. 

 

There.  I said it.  I feel better.  And I AM sorry cross, as I don't intend for this to be personal.  I just feel quite strongly about it.   Especially, on what a rebuild is.

 

        Nobody, and I mean....Nobody, uses the definition provided above to mark the end of a rebuild.  By that definition, for instance, Edmonton would be done rebuilding.  They already have their core, and they are No longer shipping out assets (because they have no valuable veteran assets left).

 

        Yet, we all clearly know that Edmonton continues to rebuild, because NONE of their core has developed into successful, consistent, dependable NHLers.     At the NHL level, Edmonton has NOT developed, and will continue to rebuild, until they can develop their NHL players into actual NHL players.

 

       Clearly, the majority of our core is Also in a development stage at the NHL level.  Several years out from their prime, with MUCH to learn and grow at.  Likewise, we have more significant holes than a contending team, which we need to fill Before we lose the advantage of high draft picks, if we want to be a contender.

 

    I feel that it is very important for us to understand that the Flames Are rebuilding, and I feel that it is important for us to Believe in, and Support the rebuild.

 

Frankly, if we don't...we will become a very depressed fan base in the short term.    And possibly pressure the organization into making some very regrettable short-term moves that leave us in limbo for another decade.  What we need, more than anything now, is for the organization to know that they have the time to do this Right.   That the fans want more than short-term guilty pleasures in the regular season with brief appearances in the first round.   The fans want a Stanley Cup.   And are patient enough to support their team on that journey.

 

 

p.s.... Second biggest contradiction, on  a side note:   "Finding an answer now" is EXACTLY how we ended up with both Hiller and Ramo, and the whole reason none of our prospects ever got any real NHL time.   You and I have had Big arguments about this over the years.   I thought the RAMO acquisition, and the Hiller acquisition, were short-sighted.   You took the other side on this, and were EXTREMELY supportive of both acquisitions, which were short-term and provided us with exactly ZERO Stanley cups.  I am Not even sure if they actually provided us with more regular season wins.

 

You have your position, and I have mine.  But I don't feel you should be able to have two opposite positions.

 

I feel that your position now is a bit like having your cake and eating it too.

[The_People1]

I recall starting a post years ago when Iginla's trade was imminent asking members of the forum what they define a rebuild as.  The range of answers spanned the entire galaxy and back.  Some considered a rebuild as simply trading Jarome Iginla alone while the other end defined a rebuild as a complete tear down of management/coaching staff/farm system/scouting staff/etc.  Most defined a rebuild to be somewhere in between but there was generally no consensus definition.

 

Given that, I'm not surprised to find everyone disagreeing with the definition "done rebuilding".

 

To me, done rebuilding means "making the playoffs again."  Because to me, rebuilding means to trade everybody that's old, suck for a few years, stock up on some high picks, mesh, and then stop sucking.  So to basically progress from the basement of the league and then be setup to make a run for the Cup with some young core pieces.  In other words, the Flames were done rebuilding the moment they made the playoffs last year with Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, etc.

 

Since we were good enough to make the playoffs last season, we should be within tweaking peripheral pieces of challenging for the Cup.  It's so disappointing to see them take a huge step backwards.  I know it's not a popular idea but if we knew this was going to happen, then I'd rather we sucked last year for a better pick and then come back this year stronger.

 

Nothing worries me more than finding out we didn't invest enough time in the basement building the foundation first before building the house on top, and then finding out the entire house is crumbling due to a weak foundation.  We should've just spent last year "tanking" (I use the word loosely here), and trading Hudler for a 1st round pick, etc, stocking up the cupboards with more prospects while the team is investing time in that part of the rebuilding path.