Goaltending

[The_People1]

Hiller might be the 25th best goalie in the NHL right now.

 

Ramo, maybe the 28th best...

 

Together, if we play them on their hot streak and sit them on their cold streaks, manage it that way, then we can get 15th to 20th ranked goaltending from the tandem.

[cross16]

$3.8-mil can be much better spent guys.  We're going to have one goalie sit and watch games having popcorn for a couple of months until the goalie market opens up again.  Or worse, you send one of Hiller or Ramo to AHL for conditioning stints when we're trying to develop Gillies (and Schneider) in the AHL.

 

I was baffled by Ramo's re-signing without trading Hiller this summer and I still am to this moment.  I'm waiting for the next move to make this move a good move, and that's why i know that was not a good move to begin with.

 

But where? Where were they going to spend 3.8 mill this year? They basicaly had their roster set when they signed Ramo.

[The_People1]

But where? Where were they going to spend 3.8 mill this year? They basicaly had their roster set when they signed Ramo.

 

We will never know who we could've traded for but didn't have the cap space to fit them into the line-up.

[MAC331]

Kipper prevented us from developing a proper backup.  Having both Ramo and Hiller again this season does the same thing.  Ortio

needs to play this year to see what he really is.  Otherwise, we are forced to go with him next year as a starter, assuming he even re-signs.

 

So you would move your experienced goalies aside to take a chance that Ortio is the answer. How do you think the rest of the team would feel about this ?

Kipper became a good answer for us in net and that is what you look for at the professional level. Kipper was a good reliable goalie but there were many night he looked terrible and pulled after allowing 5 goals.

Call me crazy but I don't think they gave Hiller the contract they did and resigned Ramo just to move them aside to give Ortio his opportunity.

[kehatch]

1. Signing Ramo was not a mistake.  We have three goalies slugging it out for two positions.  That is healthy competition.  It was also insurance if Ortio didn't have a strong season.  Worst case is we burn some salary in the minors.  Best case is we get some small assets in a trade either immediately or sometime before the deadline.  None of that is dreadful and it is certainly worth the upside. 

Not only does Ortio have the best stats this preseason, he is doing it with a weak Flames roster against NHL ready rosters.  Look at the D that has been in front of him.  We get to see it again tonight.  Ramo and Hiller have had the opposite circumstances. 

With Ortio and Ramo getting full half starts and Ortio getting full starts it really looks like Ramo and Hiller are fighting for the final job.  

[JTech780]

• Signing Ramo was not a mistake. We have three goalies slugging it out for two positions. That is healthy competition. It was also insurance if Ortio didn't have a strong season. Worst case is we burn some salary in the minors. Best case is we get some small assets in a trade either immediately or sometime before the deadline. None of that is dreadful and it is certainly worth the upside.
• Not only does Ortio have the best stats this preseason, he is doing it with a weak Flames roster against NHL ready rosters. Look at the D that has been in front of him. We get to see it again tonight. Ramo and Hiller have had the opposite circumstances.
• With Ortio and Ramo getting full half starts and Ortio getting full starts it really looks like Ramo and Hiller are fighting for the final job.

I see it a bit different, Ramo and Hiller getting half starts is because the coaching staff already knows what they have in those two. While Ortio still has to prove himself and show what he's got, hence the full start.

[travel_dude]

So you would move your experienced goalies aside to take a chance that Ortio is the answer. How do you think the rest of the team would feel about this ?

Kipper became a good answer for us in net and that is what you look for at the professional level. Kipper was a good reliable goalie but there were many night he looked terrible and pulled after allowing 5 goals.

Call me crazy but I don't think they gave Hiller the contract they did and resigned Ramo just to move them aside to give Ortio his opportunity.

 

Kipper got the chance due to injury replacement.  Kipper also became the linchpin for the Flames.  He overplayed to the point of not allowing a backup the opportunity to develop.  As a result, when Kipper was on a bad streak, the Flames lost.  No chance to use McBackup because he wasn't tuned up to be able to win.  

 

Ortio was always part of the future on the Flames, if he was able to prove he could win at the NHL level.  They spent years developing him to be a starter.  Hiller was a 2 year guy, to give you some stability during the rebuild.  2014/15 was more a year of overachieving by F and D, not goalies winning on their own.  There wasn't Kipper performances on a normal basis.  The odd game was stolen, but that was also a product of the team keeping away the quality scoring chances or outscoring a team while shooting less.  The Flames were 2nd in the NHL in SH%.  That is not the goalies doing it.  

[MAC331]

Kipper got the chance due to injury replacement.  Kipper also became the linchpin for the Flames.  He overplayed to the point of not allowing a backup the opportunity to develop.  As a result, when Kipper was on a bad streak, the Flames lost.  No chance to use McBackup because he wasn't tuned up to be able to win.  

 

Ortio was always part of the future on the Flames, if he was able to prove he could win at the NHL level.  They spent years developing him to be a starter.  Hiller was a 2 year guy, to give you some stability during the rebuild.  2014/15 was more a year of overachieving by F and D, not goalies winning on their own.  There wasn't Kipper performances on a normal basis.  The odd game was stolen, but that was also a product of the team keeping away the quality scoring chances or outscoring a team while shooting less.  The Flames were 2nd in the NHL in SH%.  That is not the goalies doing it.  

 

You make a lot of statements like you are part of management "thinking". How do you know what the thinking is for Ortio ? all prospects are potential for your team or potential trade material. Plans change with every year and sometimes injury to injury, lots of situations cause change. I don't want to see us lose him for nothing either but it could happen. Initially Hiller and Ramo give the team the best chance to win if only because of experience.

[travel_dude]

You make a lot of statements like you are part of management "thinking". How do you know what the thinking is for Ortio ? all prospects are potential for your team or potential trade material. Plans change with every year and sometimes injury to injury, lots of situations cause change. I don't want to see us lose him for nothing either but it could happen. Initially Hiller and Ramo give the team the best chance to win if only because of experience.

 

The first paragraph is observation and history.

 

Any goalie you draft or develop is done so to be a starter on the team at some point.  You don't expend a draft pick just to have a backup.  As far as Hiller, he was signed for two years.  If you were looking to sign a long-term asset, you don't give him 2 years.  

 

Ortio is a future starter on the Flames, unless he craps the bed or is passed by the next one.

 

BTW, love the debate.  It's great to have a team to argue about good players.  I would hate to be a fan of the Coyotes and argue about who the least bad player is, or how the future looks rosy because we drafted top 3 and one player is going to turn it around.

How many teams have 3 goalies all performing well, or have performed well in the NHL.

[robrob1974]

Ummmm, kehatch, Ramo got the C squad in front of him when they played the last Canucks who had more NHL PLAYERS on their roster. We won in OT, but had a mostly rookie defense and only the Stajan line. You can't say Ortio had the biggest challenges.

[conundrumed]

I believe a lot in this thread run on passion, and stats.

But if you consider the position, there is a lot of dynamics to consider.

For the staff, you have to consider what style of goalie best compliments the style you want your players playing.

That involves looking at steering the puck off of saves. It also involves players understanding you the goalie, where you'll be, how you'll play it, and having that consistency cuts down on miscommunications.

Much of goaltending is mental fortitude. Goalies are 1 of 2 ways. Level and balanced, nothing gets to them. Or pissed right off and just taking over.

All the greats, I can think of what happened when they lost their excrement. Patty Roy got a new team, Hextall and Belfour, Quick, Price. Never infuriate a good goalie, they will bust through walls to keep the puck out.

 

Which brings me to Hiller. Of our 3 goalies, he has good rebound control and his teammates know where he puts it consistently. He's level to a fault. I'd have loved to see him go sideways last year just to check the effect. But he just doesn't.

He'll start game 1 imho, simply because he checks the most boxes in goalie mechanics. That's why I stress he has really settled the position down for us. I don't want tumult and miscommunication, lack of consistency back there. That was 2013. It was corrected.

Gillies is a big goalie like Hiller. Ortio is adventurous like Ramo.

I want one of each, so Hiller's experience wins for me.

I'd be real nervous if sent Hiller away. I believe we'd be taught a lesson.

[JTech780]

I believe a lot in this thread run on passion, and stats.

But if you consider the position, there is a lot of dynamics to consider.

For the staff, you have to consider what style of goalie best compliments the style you want your players playing.

That involves looking at steering the puck off of saves. It also involves players understanding you the goalie, where you'll be, how you'll play it, and having that consistency cuts down on miscommunications.

Much of goaltending is mental fortitude. Goalies are 1 of 2 ways. Level and balanced, nothing gets to them. Or pissed right off and just taking over.

All the greats, I can think of what happened when they lost their excrement. Patty Roy got a new team, Hextall and Belfour, Quick, Price. Never infuriate a good goalie, they will bust through walls to keep the puck out.

Which brings me to Hiller. Of our 3 goalies, he has good rebound control and his teammates know where he puts it consistently. He's level to a fault. I'd have loved to see him go sideways last year just to check the effect. But he just doesn't.

He'll start game 1 imho, simply because he checks the most boxes in goalie mechanics. That's why I stress he has really settled the position down for us. I don't want tumult and miscommunication, lack of consistency back there. That was 2013. It was corrected.

Gillies is a big goalie like Hiller. Ortio is adventurous like Ramo.

I want one of each, so Hiller's experience wins for me.

I'd be real nervous if sent Hiller away. I believe we'd be taught a lesson.

I agree, I would go as far as to say that I don't think we would be a playoff team with a Ramo/Ortio combo.

[Jessemadnote39]

I think the best move would be to put Ramo on waivers.

 

Pros

-If he's claimed, problem solved, no more controversy, like the signing never happened.  

-If he's unclaimed, we then have a great insurance policy if one of Hiller or Ortio implodes or is injured.

-We also have a great trade chip if there is a team in need of an NHL calibre goalie.

-Could work well with Gillies in the minors as a mentor.

 

Cons

-It will affect Gillies playing time. (Though any goalie going down will) 

-Bad player relations, sign and send down.

-He's playing great right now. But everyone is. 

[conundrumed]

Ortio clears waivers.

I still believe he will.

Same as last year, no complaints from me.

Ortio needs more coaching, Ramo and Hiller is a good tandem.

I see Ramo as a good career backup.

[gshesternik@yahoo.com]

Certainly Hiller is the stable veteran but as has been mentioned he did come in as a stop gap for a couple of years during the rebuild so Hiller may be expendable if Ramo or Ortio are ready to take on a greater role.  I would suspect under a Ramo/Ortio combo that you would need Ramo to play about 45 to 50 games and Ortio about 30.  I don't see either of them being a distinct number one. 

 

That's where keeping Hiller may be a must until you can say Ramo or Ortio can take the number 1.  On a side note, Gillies appears to be touted as the future number 1 for the Flames.  How long before he is ready?  I would say to start the year, you have Hiller and Ramo like last year and have Ortio in Stockton.

[kehatch]

Ortio clears waivers.

I still believe he will.

Same as last year, no complaints from me.

Ortio needs more coaching, Ramo and Hiller is a good tandem.

I see Ramo as a good career backup.

When would be a good time for you? He has two successful AHL seasons, has looked good in his call ups, is 24, and is having a good camp.

Plus, Ramo and Hiller have one more season under contract. Plus Ortio will be am RFA. We really need to know what we have in Ortio before next summer.

If he doesn't even it in camo then sure, send him down. But he hasn't given the Flames a reason yet.

[cccsberg]

I agree with some that Hiller is the calmest and the best goalie of the three at this time.  However he lost his focus several times last year letting in early goals and twice again in the playoffs.  I wold also agree that Ortio is more like Ramo so if you want a balance of styles Hiller probably stays and Ramo goes down or gets traded.  

 

No matter what they do I think they will do OK.

[CheersMan]

Ortio clears waivers.

I still believe he will.

Same as last year, no complaints from me.

Ortio needs more coaching, Ramo and Hiller is a good tandem.

I see Ramo as a good career backup.

 

Ok you are now BT standing in front of the media scrum after Ortio claimed off waivers;

 

Mr. Treliving, yesterday the Flames attempted to send Ortio to Stockton, the process required him to clear waivers first.  Today the EDM Oilers claimed Ortio and the Flames lost their best young goalie prospect in recent time.  Mr. Treliving, the Flames appeared to have made a huge miscalculation, with two veteran goalies remaining, with neither signed beyond this year, could you please explain what lead to this decision and why a talented young goalie with huge upside is no longer with this club?

[kehatch]

Ok you are now BT standing in front of the media scrum after Ortio claimed off waivers;

Mr. Treliving, yesterday the Flames attempted to send Ortio to Stockton, the process required him to clear waivers first. Today the EDM Oilers claimed Ortio and the Flames lost their best young goalie prospect in recent time. Mr. Treliving, the Flames appeared to have made a huge miscalculation, with two veteran goalies remaining, with neither signed beyond this year, could you please explain what lead to this decision and why a talented young goalie with huge upside is no longer with this club?

Exactly. The Flames don't have a solution in net beyond this season. Assuming he shows he is ready (and he has) they need to see what they have in Ortio.

[MAC331]

The first paragraph is observation and history.

 

Any goalie you draft or develop is done so to be a starter on the team at some point.  You don't expend a draft pick just to have a backup.  As far as Hiller, he was signed for two years.  If you were looking to sign a long-term asset, you don't give him 2 years.  

 

Ortio is a future starter on the Flames, unless he craps the bed or is passed by the next one.

 

BTW, love the debate.  It's great to have a team to argue about good players.  I would hate to be a fan of the Coyotes and argue about who the least bad player is, or how the future looks rosy because we drafted top 3 and one player is going to turn it around.

How many teams have 3 goalies all performing well, or have performed well in the NHL.

Hiller was given a 2 year deal for the purpose is my point. We must realise to a degree we are still in a rebuild phase until this youth matures past this year. Come 2016-17 Hiller and a number of other fillers will be gone (expensive fillers) this is why I think they will stay with the experience factor in net.

Just my thinking with Ramo is that they haven't quite seen enough but want to use this year to see if he is indeed the goalie to take further into the future.

[travel_dude]

Hiller was given a 2 year deal for the purpose is my point. We must realise to a degree we are still in a rebuild phase until this youth matures past this year. Come 2016-17 Hiller and a number of other fillers will be gone (expensive fillers) this is why I think they will stay with the experience factor in net.

Just my thinking with Ramo is that they haven't quite seen enough but want to use this year to see if he is indeed the goalie to take further into the future.

 

With Hiller, we will either see more of the same or regression.  With Ramo, it could be either of those or a career year.

 

As Kehatch mentioned, none of the goalies are signed beyond this season.  Unless we play Ortio a reasonable number of games to properly evaluate him, we won't know what we have.  He may not want to even sign with us.  He is ripe.  And he has shown better than average starts in his recent games.  He is at the age where he will improve only with a better level of competition.  Not the AHL.

 

Hiller will want a longer deal if he is the starter this season (meaning he is playing the best).  Or he will want more money.  

 

If we are still considered to be in a rebuild, then you need to rebuild the goaltending as well.  Hiller and Ramo do not allow this to happen if they are playing league average.  We can't (potentially) toss away our closest-to-ready goalie prospect and wait another 2-3 years for Gillies, or longer for Mason.

[The_People1]

Did Ortio lose his chance to start the season with the Flames with a 3-1 loss to the Jets?

[darth_henning]

It certainly hurt his stats, but I'd still say he's had the best games of our goalies in the pre-season. 

 

It does show he's not ready as a starter, but I don't think it means he's not NHL ready. 

 

Its also pretty important to note that the only NHL-experienced d-man in front of him was Engellend. That's going to hurt any goalie's stats. 

[robrob1974]

With Hiller, we will either see more of the same or regression. With Ramo, it could be either of those or a career year.

As Kehatch mentioned, none of the goalies are signed beyond this season. Unless we play Ortio a reasonable number of games to properly evaluate him, we won't know what we have. He may not want to even sign with us. He is ripe. And he has shown better than average starts in his recent games. He is at the age where he will improve only with a better level of competition. Not the AHL.

Hiller will want a longer deal if he is the starter this season (meaning he is playing the best). Or he will want more money.

If we are still considered to be in a rebuild, then you need to rebuild the goaltending as well. Hiller and Ramo do not allow this to happen if they are playing league average. We can't (potentially) toss away our closest-to-ready goalie prospect and wait another 2-3 years for Gillies, or longer for Mason.

Hiller is at an age where he is only going to get about a two year deal or may end up with one year deals based on his pay. For term, team is going to pay him less. His history may have good overall numbers, but he has fallen in Anaheim and possibly in Calgary as well. I just don't see him getting term.

It certainly hurt his stats, but I'd still say he's had the best games of our goalies in the pre-season.

It does show he's not ready as a starter, but I don't think it means he's not NHL ready.

Its also pretty important to note that the only NHL-experienced d-man in front of him was Engellend. That's going to hurt any goalie's stats.

NHL starting goaltenders lose in the preseason. It doesn't prove he's not a starter. Do we expect him to win every game? Or are you basing this off his play? Even starters have bad games.

Patrick Roy let in like 9 goals in one game... Guess he wasn't a starter.

I never liked Roy by the way. I am also not sold on Ortio, but can't base it on a one off.

[travel_dude]

Hiller is at an age where he is only going to get about a two year deal or may end up with one year deals based on his pay. For term, team is going to pay him less. His history may have good overall numbers, but he has fallen in Anaheim and possibly in Calgary as well. I just don't see him getting term.

 

I don't know about that.  Some other goalie have gotten longer contracts.  

 

As far as teams wanting a player like him, consider teams in rebuild-mode.  They just have to look at the positive impact he had in Calgary.  If we just offer a one-year deal or let him walk, he is going to get an offer elsewhere.  At TDL, his value would probably be highest in trade, though.