Goaltending

[DirtyDeeds]

Berra was the one playing in that Chicago game.

^^

 

 

He also played in th loss on Nov 28th here.

Kane had this to say about Berra & his play:

 

I thought he played really good," Kane said. "Both goals he didn't really have a chance on and made numerous saves that he's not really expected to make, but at the same time, he made them..

[phoenix66]

Ramo has been solid, but now he has to work on not letting in 30 foot goals.. one cost him a shutout, the one last night gave Carolina a point.

but both have come miles since the start of the season .. looking pretty good for the next 50 games

[cross16]

I think both goalies are progressing but the next step is to stop giving up these big goals, most of them not very good ones, and make key saves. That's going to continue to plague this team if either Ramo or Berra can't start coming up with big saves. That's the main think I ask of a goalie. Flames should have won in regulation last night and it's what you need if you want to be a starting goalie at this level.

[robrob1974]

I think both goalies are progressing but the next step is to stop giving up these big goals, most of them not very good ones, and make key saves. That's going to continue to plague this team if either Ramo or Berra can't start coming up with big saves. That's the main think I ask of a goalie. Flames should have won in regulation last night and it's what you need if you want to be a starting goalie at this level.

 

I think a part of that has to do with the defense. If Butler gets the puck out a few games ago, we win that game. I think it goes both ways as Berra/Ramo could make those saves too. It's a team game. 

 

What was the score in that game? I know the score, but I am just saying, they guy only let in how many goals? If that's not giving your team a chance to win, then what is? If you can't score more than one goal, you can't expect to win many games that way.

[robrob1974]

^^

 

 

He also played in th loss on Nov 28th here.

Kane had this to say about Berra & his play:

 

 

I feel like we don't give our goaltending the benefit of the doubt. We never take into consideration the saves they're not suppose to make and then when the team doesn't get enough goals to bail out the goalies, we still blame it on the goalies. Like I say, it works both ways, the goalies bail out the team, and sometimes the team needs to bail out the goalies with goal support. 

[cross16]

I think a part of that has to do with the defense. If Butler gets the puck out a few games ago, we win that game. I think it goes both ways as Berra/Ramo could make those saves too. It's a team game. 

 

What was the score in that game? I know the score, but I am just saying, they guy only let in how many goals? If that's not giving your team a chance to win, then what is? If you can't score more than one goal, you can't expect to win many games that way.

I'm not blaming them for any losses as this is all part if the process. But if you want to be an NHL starting goalie you have to make those saves and the big saves are key. Backups give them team chances to win while starters win games and that's the change/development both those guys need to make.

[MAC331]

I agree they have to make key saves at key times but Both have represented themselves very well IMO. If we are to rebuild from the net out we have a good start with these two. Now we need some much better defensemen and our guys playing the proper sides of the ice.

I'm not blaming them for any losses as this is all part if the process. But if you want to be an NHL starting goalie you have to make those saves and the big saves are key. Backups give them team chances to win while starters win games and that's the change/development both those guys need to make.

[DirtyDeeds]

[s4xon]

From today's GDT

 

 

Ramo's save % last 6 games:

 

.963

.967

.880

.967

.955

1.00 (in relief, only 4 shots)

 

He's really turned it around.

 

Not bad for the former 'best goalie not playing in the NHL.'  I'm willing to bet his numbers are better than the former 'other best goalie not playing in the NHL.'

[kehatch]

Even looking at Ramo's full body of work his stats are respectable for a goalie on a sub par team.  The goalies stats: 

 

Ramo: GS 12; SV% 0.907; GAA 2.67; P% 0.542 (1-game over 500)

Berra: GS 13; SV% 0.896; GAA 3.18; P% 0.385 (3-games under 500)

MacDonald: GS 7; SV% 0.885; GAA 3.17; P% 0.500 (At 500)

 

In terms of the schedule Ramo has had the roughest treatment.  75% of his starts have been against teams currently in the playoffs (the other two are just under 60%).  He has also had long gaps between starts.  Though he has had a healthier team in front of him than Berra.  Ramo also has 2 of the second half back to backs (Mac has 2, Berra has 1).  

 

By the eye test Ramo has been much better.  There has been notable improvement and he doesn't let in the frequent softies that Berra does.  

 

Right now there isn't any question on who has been the best goalie.  I am still boggled on how Berra got so many starts in November.  I would keep Berra up and keep a good cycle between him and Ramo to avoid playing either.  But if Berra doesn't pick up his game I would drop him to the AHL and bring MacDonald back up.  

[jjgallow]

Berra was the one playing in that Chicago game.

 

I Love this thread  

[swayze67]

I see Ramo is scheduled to play again tonight.  I like that.  Play the hot goaltender.  You lose (which can be not his fault but..) your out and the other gets his chance.  Get a friendly compettion going and the stronger survives.  Maybe Hartley played Berra all those games to get his time equal to Ramo and now it's win or sit.   It will be interesting to watch.

[DirtyDeeds]

I see Ramo is scheduled to play again tonight.  I like that.  Play the hot goaltender.  You lose (which can be not his fault but..) your out and the other gets his chance.  Get a friendly compettion going and the stronger survives.  Maybe Hartley played Berra all those games to get his time equal to Ramo and now it's win or sit.   It will be interesting to watch.

Seems the "losing" part of the starts isn't the way they are thinking because a good game sometimes this season, has gotten another start even if it has a loss associated with their good play.

[geos]

Need to keep in mind Berra is fresh to the NHL game, whereas Ramo is considerably more seasoned with 63 NHL games. Let's see where Berra is at by the end of the year an compare. It takes time to adapt. At this point, I don't see a large gap between the two in terms of ability or results.

 

Neither has been at the quality of a bona fide NHL starter.

[SheriforPM]

Getting tired of the tender bashing here in Calgary. Ramo sits with a .907 GAA. According to most of you he isn't an NHL starter. Some even want Joey Mac back with his .885 GAA facing less than half the shots as Ramo.

There are so many big names below Ramo's on the NHL GAA list who are bonafide starters it's not even funny.

 

We have a weak assed defence in front of these guys and you are all wanting a Kipper from his 05-06 Vezina year!

 

I think Feaster nailed it on these two. I give him 2 thumbs up for signing them. If we had a couple of stud defencemen besides Gio in front of these guys this thread would have one page, not 42. 

[kehatch]

Getting tired of the tender bashing here in Calgary. Ramo sits with a .907 GAA. According to most of you he isn't an NHL starter. Some even want Joey Mac back with his .885 GAA facing less than half the shots as Ramo.

There are so many big names below Ramo's on the NHL GAA list who are bonafide starters it's not even funny.

 

We have a weak assed defence in front of these guys and you are all wanting a Kipper from his 05-06 Vezina year!

 

I think Feaster nailed it on these two. I give him 2 thumbs up for signing them. If we had a couple of stud defencemen besides Gio in front of these guys this thread would have one page, not 42. 

 

I think it is more than just the stats.  I have seen goalies look much better then their stats showed.  In Ramo's and (especially) Berra's case they both raise flags with the eyeball test.  I don't think either is the starter on any other NHL team.  I don't think either end up as the back-up on most NHL teams.  It is tough to look five years down the road and see either of these guys in net for the Flames (or any NHL team).  

 

That said Ramo has been playing very well lately and I am hoping he overcomes the odds and shows he has what it takes to be a full time NHL goalie. I am not writing him (or Berra) off.  I think they both have a chance.  And I really hope they are successful.  But I think there are flags and I think we would be naive to ignore those because of a few decent starts in December.   

[jjgallow]

I think it is more than just the stats.  I have seen goalies look much better then their stats showed.  In Ramo's and (especially) Berra's case they both raise flags with the eyeball test.  I don't think either is the starter on any other NHL team.  I don't think either end up as the back-up on most NHL teams.  It is tough to look five years down the road and see either of these guys in net for the Flames (or any NHL team).  

 

That said Ramo has been playing very well lately and I am hoping he overcomes the odds and shows he has what it takes to be a full time NHL goalie. I am not writing him (or Berra) off.  I think they both have a chance.  And I really hope they are successful.  But I think there are flags and I think we would be naive to ignore those because of a few decent starts in December.   

 

This.

 

Goaltending is but one area where the Flames actually have a decent prospect pipeline.  It is ironic, actually, that so much focus is put on this thread, rather than defense, or right wing, or even center.

 

IMHO, Berra and Ramo are currently battling for the future backup position in the Flames organization.  It's not to say that they Can't end up being our starter, but he chances are very remote.

 

More likely, Ortio and Gilles will soon be battling for the starting position with the Flames (although it'll likely begin as a backup position).    

 

Berra and Ramo basically have to hope that at least One of Ortio or Gillies bombs, and/or get traded, opening up a backup spot.

 

Otherwise, I expect Ortio to be in the Flames mix next year at the Latest.  And the only thing possibly standing in his way, is Gillies the following year.

[kehatch]

IMHO, Berra and Ramo are currently battling for the future backup position in the Flames organization.  It's not to say that they Can't end up being our starter, but he chances are very remote.

 

More likely, Ortio and Gilles will soon be battling for the starting position with the Flames (although it'll likely begin as a backup position).    

 

Unless Ramo or Berra really establish themselves I think Ortio will see some starts after the trade deadline this season.  I have trouble getting excited about this guy though.  There is no denying his performance in Abby.  That said Brust and Taylor found a lot of success under Ward as well.  If he keeps this up for the rest of the season or he shows me something at the NHL level than I will start to get excited.  He has definitely worked his way up my list of prospects.  But he has a ways to go before he cracks my A list of prospects.  I am hoping he can continue to improve and show he has NHL starter potential.  

 

Gilles on the other hand I am really excited about.  He still has a long ways to go to prove he is an NHL goalie.  But he keeps getting better and his ceiling is really high.  

[jjgallow]

Unless Ramo or Berra really establish themselves I think Ortio will see some starts after the trade deadline this season.  I have trouble getting excited about this guy though.  There is no denying his performance in Abby.  That said Brust and Taylor found a lot of success under Ward as well.  If he keeps this up for the rest of the season or he shows me something at the NHL level than I will start to get excited.  He has definitely worked his way up my list of prospects.  But he has a ways to go before he cracks my A list of prospects.  I am hoping he can continue to improve and show he has NHL starter potential.  

 

Gilles on the other hand I am really excited about.  He still has a long ways to go to prove he is an NHL goalie.  But he keeps getting better and his ceiling is really high.  

 

I won't argue with your getting more excited about Gillies.  At this stage, anyway, I think you're right to take that stance.

 

But I do think it's worth getting excited about Ortio as well.   I don't think it's fair to compare his AHL success as a 22 year old with Brust and Taylor's success in their late 20's.  I think that goes without saying and I'm sure you would agree.

 

I'll take it one step further:  I don't think it's fair for us to dismiss Brust and Taylor's AHL success either.  It was not just isolated to the AHL.  Both are doing quite well in Europe now:

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=SHL&season=2013#goaltending

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=KHL&season=2013#goaltending

 

Barry Brust blew away the the KHL earlier in the year, before plateauing.  Danny Taylor got off to a slow start, but is now creeping up to the top of the SHL.   Brust is probably too old to mount a comeback, but I'm not so sure the NHL has seen the last of Taylor.

 

Anyway, feel free to disagree with this....except the bolded part of course.

 

I should also mention....I don't think Ortio has worked his way UP the prospect rankings.  He's worked his way BACK UP the prospect rankings.  He was, for some time, a goaltending prospect worthy of getting excited about.   If you subtract a few AHL games that he was not ready for and probably should have never played in from two years ago....he has NEVER fallen off his original development curve.   He continued to improve year-after-year in SM Liiga.   Outside of our incompetent goalie development system, he has continued to be the prospect we were originally excited about.

 

Gillies....he's amazing, obviously.  But he's also had the benefit of not having to go through the Flames goalie development system.  Without a shadow of a doubt, if he had been placed in the AHL games Ortio was placed in at that age....the result would have been similar.   

 

So I think it's worth being excited about both.  With maybe a slight preference for Gillies at this point.

[kehatch]

I won't argue with your getting more excited about Gillies.  At this stage, anyway, I think you're right to take that stance.

 

But I do think it's worth getting excited about Ortio as well.   I don't think it's fair to compare his AHL success as a 22 year old with Brust and Taylor's success in their late 20's.  I think that goes without saying and I'm sure you would agree.

 

I'll take it one step further:  I don't think it's fair for us to dismiss Brust and Taylor's AHL success either.  It was not just isolated to the AHL.  Both are doing quite well in Europe now:

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=SHL&season=2013#goaltending

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=KHL&season=2013#goaltending

 

Barry Brust blew away the the KHL earlier in the year, before plateauing.  Danny Taylor got off to a slow start, but is now creeping up to the top of the SHL.   Brust is probably too old to mount a comeback, but I'm not so sure the NHL has seen the last of Taylor.

 

Anyway, feel free to disagree with this....except the bolded part of course.

 

I should also mention....I don't think Ortio has worked his way UP the prospect rankings.  He's worked his way BACK UP the prospect rankings.  He was, for some time, a goaltending prospect worthy of getting excited about.   If you subtract a few AHL games that he was not ready for and probably should have never played in from two years ago....he has NEVER fallen off his original development curve.   He continued to improve year-after-year in SM Liiga.   Outside of our incompetent goalie development system, he has continued to be the prospect we were originally excited about.

 

Gillies....he's amazing, obviously.  But he's also had the benefit of not having to go through the Flames goalie development system.  Without a shadow of a doubt, if he had been placed in the AHL games Ortio was placed in at that age....the result would have been similar.   

 

So I think it's worth being excited about both.  With maybe a slight preference for Gillies at this point.

 

I am not going to get excited about a prospect because you say I should

 

I wasn't high on Ortio before the season starts.  So 14 games under a system known for great goalie stats doesn't change my mind.  I also wasn't high on Ortio after he was drafted.  I wasn't low on him either.  But his +1 draft year didn't do anything to establish him as a great prospect.  Neither did his +2 or +3 seasons.  

 

I am not saying you shouldn't be excited for him.  He has definitely moved his way up my prospect charts.  He just needs to do what he is doing for longer before I am going to start thinking about him as a legitimate starting goalie prospect.  

 

I still don't think the Flames have a sure fire goalie in the system though.  It is possible both Ortio and GIlles become starters.  It is also very possible neither do.  So I am okay with taking chances on guys like Ramo/Berra.  I would also be okay if the Flames were in on a guy like Bernier.  

 

The only thing I don't want to see is us go after an established older veteran.  I could see Burke doing that.  But I really hope he doesn't.  

[DirtyDeeds]

Good call Sheri. I find myself laughing and shaking my head at all the pessimists & "checking from behind kissing" going on around here. You might consider targeting Ramo's last 6 games however with your stats. He has really stepped up his play  for his last 6 games to "World Class". Yes I said "World Class" stats his last 6 games. Small sample size to be sure but very admirable and probably the biggest reason we are winning and getting a few point. (Well Gio's return too)

Getting tired of the tender bashing here in Calgary. Ramo sits with a .907 GAA. According to most of you he isn't an NHL starter. Some even want Joey Mac back with his .885 GAA facing less than half the shots as Ramo.

There are so many big names below Ramo's on the NHL GAA list who are bonafide starters it's not even funny.

 

We have a weak assed defence in front of these guys and you are all wanting a Kipper from his 05-06 Vezina year!

 

I think Feaster nailed it on these two. I give him 2 thumbs up for signing them. If we had a couple of stud defencemen besides Gio in front of these guys this thread would have one page, not 42.

 

Last 6 Games Ramo has played he has only allowed 10 goals and is 4-1-1 .940 Sv%. This is why those guys prefer to talk about prospects who have not played an NHL game. They just don't want to talk about him  because his play does not fit with their early predictions.

[jjgallow]

I am not going to get excited about a prospect because you say I should

 

didn't ask you to...just asked you to recognize the difference between a 27 year old having success in the AHL, versus a 22 year old.  If that makes you upset, I take it back.

 

 He just needs to do what he is doing for longer before I am going to start thinking about him as a legitimate starting goalie prospect.  

 

You must be pretty excited about Irving then, no?  

 

I still don't think the Flames have a sure fire goalie in the system though.

 

I don't think any team does.

 

The only thing I don't want to see is us go after an established older veteran.  I could see Burke doing that.  But I really hope he doesn't.  

 

I completely agree, this would be pretty much the worst thing ever.

 

Although...Ramo/Berra are basically older veterans, without the experience.

[phoenix66]

Since December 1 the flames have the #2 ranked goaltending in the league.most of us on this board have agreed we should wait until after 10-15 starts to start judging them..well here we are and they are both rounding into form.

Im still seeing adjustments needed from the European game, e.g.:getting too far from the net at the sides due to the difference in net depth or high shots going in from distance due to the shots and releases from nhl players being faster..but they are both miles ahead of game 1 for both

I see it being said we're not making the big saves..but we are. Ramo made some beauties against new York but he didn't make the last one. It could have easily been 6-3 after regulation.he got us to round 7 of the shootout.How many times did killer get us to extra shooters? This year we've been deep 3 times

On almost every late goal loss or tie I'll show you a dman that got burned. Russell against Chicago , butler the other night.

The biggest issue isn't the goalies. Its dman going past their acceptable minutes and making bonehead plays from being too tired. Its not a coincidence our goaltending seemingly got better with gio back combined with smid eating minutes now.

Im pretty sure we could string together 10 straight shutouts and we'd still have people lamenting our "non nhl quality goaltending"

25-27 is typically when a goaltender comes into his prime..to consider that old is ludacris

[SheriforPM]

Good call Sheri. I find myself laughing and shaking my head at all the pessimists & "checking from behind kissing" going on around here. You might consider targeting Ramo's last 6 games however with your stats. He has really stepped up his play  for his last 6 games to "World Class". Yes I said "World Class" stats his last 6 games. Small sample size to be sure but very admirable and probably the biggest reason we are winning and getting a few point. (Well Gio's return too)

 

Last 6 Games Ramo has played he has only allowed 10 goals and is 4-1-1. This is why those guys prefer to talk about prospects who have not played an NHL game. They just don't want to talk about him  because his play does not fit with their early predictions.

Thanks Deeds. I see the same thing. Pheonix said it too that our defence is too thin to play the minutes required of them.

I understand the excitement of Ortio or Gillies, both are lights out in their league but I'm thinking you really have to give props to Ramo and Berra, they have really stepped it up lately. 

 

IMO we have our tenders for the rebuild, now we need to work on defence. Gio is outstanding this year and Russell has shown that he can do the job. TJ is over his head but that's not his fault. Too many minutes. He has shown flashes of brilliance on the back end. We just need to add a stay at home kind of guy to eat some more minutes.

Trading Jaybo left a bigger hole than I realized. Not sure if I'm alone on that one though.

[DirtyDeeds]

Thanks Deeds. I see the same thing. Pheonix said it too that our defence is too thin to play the minutes required of them.

I understand the excitement of Ortio or Gillies, both are lights out in their league but I'm thinking you really have to give props to Ramo and Berra, they have really stepped it up lately. 

 

IMO we have our tenders for the rebuild, now we need to work on defence. Gio is outstanding this year and Russell has shown that he can do the job. TJ is over his head but that's not his fault. Too many minutes. He has shown flashes of brilliance on the back end. We just need to add a stay at home kind of guy to eat some more minutes.

Trading Jaybo left a bigger hole than I realized. Not sure if I'm alone on that one though.

Well we do still have a top 4 D on injury list.  With the addition of Smid(kudos to Feaster on that trade) we can now boast a respectable D when all is healthy.

 

I patiently wait for Wideman to return to see what the defense can do then. Russel has been a fine addition and does not play small hockey. None of our D has even reached 31 years old yet. Healthy D should also help our Goaltending no matter who we put in net.