Jump to content

Fire Feaster!


Timhunter54

Recommended Posts

I'm not so sure that were any a better situation then Edmonton, I don't mean prospect wise either....

My concern is more to due with the health of the franchise and weather or not this city as a whole is willing to support a rebuilding hockey team? The oilers have always had history on there side, there fans are die hards devoted to there team, although you can see that devotion has a limit and they are growing tiresome of the losing culture up north, still tickets are selling, seats are full and there is hope for the future.

Calgary on the other hand was oh so very close to going the way of the Jets/Nordiques and forced to relocate, if it wasn't for a helping hand and the emergence of Jarome Iginla we would have seen our club share the same fate as our neighbours to the east. I find this very troubling when looking to the future, yes we have a few bright spots, but unless we hit it big at the draft and lure a few well known UFA's we are in for a long rebuild. Taking history into account I'm not the least bit surprised to hear King and Edwards pushing for the flames to get back to the post season ASAP. I can't help but wonder what kind of support this city will continue to show a loosing hockey club with no real emerging super stars to fill the void left by this seasons trades.

So yes we are in a better position then the oil when they started there build, but do we as a whole have the patience too see it through?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 469
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I'm not so sure that were any a better situation then Edmonton, I don't mean prospect wise either....

My concern is more to due with the health of the franchise and weather or not this city as a whole is willing to support a rebuilding hockey team? The oilers have always had history on there side, there fans are die hards devoted to there team, although you can see that devotion has a limit and they are growing tiresome of the losing culture up north, still tickets are selling, seats are full and there is hope for the future.

Calgary on the other hand was oh so very close to going the way of the Jets/Nordiques and forced to relocate, if it wasn't for a helping hand and the emergence of Jarome Iginla we would have seen our club share the same fate as our neighbours to the east. I find this very troubling when looking to the future, yes we have a few bright spots, but unless we hit it big at the draft and lure a few well known UFA's we are in for a long rebuild. Taking history into account I'm not the least bit surprised to hear King and Edwards pushing for the flames to get back to the post season ASAP. I can't help but wonder what kind of support this city will continue to show a loosing hockey club with no real emerging super stars to fill the void left by this seasons trades.

So yes we are in a better position then the oil when they started there build, but do we as a whole have the patience too see it through?

 

Yes. I don't think the rebuild will be as long, for 1. And for 2, i think we would have been at bigger risk by not trading iggy, bou, etc... The fans have been calling for change, and now they're getting it. The youth movement is in full swing and they are playing exciting hockey that the fans are loving watching. If phoenix hasn't been moved yet then i think its safe to say that we are safe...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. I don't think the rebuild will be as long, for 1. And for 2, i think we would have been at bigger risk by not trading iggy, bou, etc... The fans have been calling for change, and now they're getting it. The youth movement is in full swing and they are playing exciting hockey that the fans are loving watching. If phoenix hasn't been moved yet then i think its safe to say that we are safe...

I'm not debating the trade them selves, I believe whole hearted that it needed to be done, what I'm wondering is how will the city move forward with this team given that at this moment we are lacking in star power? How much time does this team have to turn it around and get back into the playoffs before we find the Saddeldome empty?

IMO this is most important draft in flames history, if we fail to find a electrifying player to kick start this rebuild we may find the flames back in financial trouble all over again...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really think with a signed core of Wideman, Giordano, Glencross, Hudler, (Tanguay).. and ELC/2nd contract guys in Backlund, Sven, Brodie.. it sets them up ok here..

 

Whats obviously missing is top end talent...

 

What should really help in Feaster landing one... those 3 1st rounders and using them wisely in trades.  Obviously the top 5'er should be a keeper.. the others could be had in hockey trades for some more advanced budding RFA players/prospects... i.e. completely HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLES of players - Boedker, Henrique, Galiardi, Berglund, Haglen...  just exemplify the type of targets Feaster should aim those later 1sts+ at...

 

I really don't see the Flames keeping all their picks considering the late ones may be 2-3 yrs away... and the organization seems keen on a quicker than not turnaround...

 

They have assets to do it...

 

 

And to further supplement and address need... he has the cap space to buy the pieces in the coming summers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think when Edwards came out and said he "expects" the Flames to make the playoffs next season, it's both to sell tickets, and to setup Feaster for failure.  Who in their right mind can turn this ship around in one off-season?  Feaster almost definitely not going to get the job done.  Which means Edwards can come in as the hero and fire Feaster.

More like the philosophy is to always challenge to make the playoffs. No one here is going the oilers route of saying, hey guys we expect to suck for a few years and then come back.

 

Here it has been "Our goal is to make the playoffs but we are not sacrificing any future to do so. We will sell expiring assets as needed and bring in competition for any holes in our roster that young players arent ready to take".

 

And now it has progressed to the point where Feaster feels some of our young prospects are going to be able to take most if not all of the holes in the roster and thus the "Dont sign any post apex players" comment.

 

You can see this in the roster contracts for next year:

Tangs Stajan Stempniak

Cammi Backlund GlenX

Sven Horak Hudler

Cervenka Reinhart/Jones Jackman

Spare: Hanowski Bouma at most they resign McGratton on a 2 way to help challenge the young physical guys.

 

Wideman Gio

Brodie

Butler Sarch

Smith

 

Biggest hole on d is the top 4 dman spot. Either they see Butler as that top 4 guy and bring up Bring up Breen or Cundari into the rotation or they need to address it externally. My guess is that they keep it open for camp and someone goes and earns it even though I think we need to bring in a better candidate.

 

Goal is the biggest question marks because Kipper may retire. Even if he doesnt retire I think Ramo or Retta come over and this shifts to more of a platoon situation going forward. Gone are the days of a single stalwart goalie ruling the roost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure that were any a better situation then Edmonton, I don't mean prospect wise either....

My concern is more to due with the health of the franchise and weather or not this city as a whole is willing to support a rebuilding hockey team? The oilers have always had history on there side, there fans are die hards devoted to there team, although you can see that devotion has a limit and they are growing tiresome of the losing culture up north, still tickets are selling, seats are full and there is hope for the future.

Calgary on the other hand was oh so very close to going the way of the Jets/Nordiques and forced to relocate, if it wasn't for a helping hand and the emergence of Jarome Iginla we would have seen our club share the same fate as our neighbours to the east. I find this very troubling when looking to the future, yes we have a few bright spots, but unless we hit it big at the draft and lure a few well known UFA's we are in for a long rebuild. Taking history into account I'm not the least bit surprised to hear King and Edwards pushing for the flames to get back to the post season ASAP. I can't help but wonder what kind of support this city will continue to show a loosing hockey club with no real emerging super stars to fill the void left by this seasons trades.

So yes we are in a better position then the oil when they started there build, but do we as a whole have the patience too see it through?

 

You're WAY off base. The Oilers were way closer to relocating than the Flames. Les Alexander, the owner of the Houston Rockets, had a deal in place to purchase the Oilers and relocate them to Houston within three years of his purchase. The sale was narrowly thwarted after the "Edmonton Investor Group" got enough people and money together to supersede Alexander's bid. It was a desperate last available attempt of a bunch of local businessmen going door to door asking their peers to join in the investment or lose the team. Calgary was never in that situation. We may have had owners talk about "save the Flames season ticket drives" but that was more an attempt to mobilize the fanbase than any real possibility of the Flames relocating.  

 

Also, I don't know why Iginla is credited with saving this franchise. He had nothing to do with it. We had games where attendance was 14,000 as late as 03-04. Three things saved this franchise - 1) The rise of the Canadian Dollar, 2) The substantial increase in wealth amongst the residents of Calgary over the past 15 years, and 3) The run of 03-04. It was never Jarome Iginla.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're WAY off base. The Oilers were way closer to relocating than the Flames. Les Alexander, the owner of the Houston Rockets, had a deal in place to purchase the Oilers and relocate them to Houston within three years of his purchase. The sale was narrowly thwarted after the "Edmonton Investor Group" got enough people and money together to supersede Alexander's bid. It was a desperate last available attempt of a bunch of local businessmen going door to door asking their peers to join in the investment or lose the team. Calgary was never in that situation. We may have had owners talk about "save the Flames season ticket drives" but that was more an attempt to mobilize the fanbase than any real possibility of the Flames relocating.  

 

Also, I don't know why Iginla is credited with saving this franchise. He had nothing to do with it. We had games where attendance was 14,000 as late as 03-04. Three things saved this franchise - 1) The rise of the Canadian Dollar, 2) The substantial increase in wealth amongst the residents of Calgary over the past 15 years, and 3) The run of 03-04. It was never Jarome Iginla.

Well arguably Iginla was a big part of number 3, and I would argue that number 3 was possibly the most important part of all three. I also think the lockout actually drove demand for hockey, and hockey fans came back stronger than ever, so I'd add that as a fourth reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More like the philosophy is to always challenge to make the playoffs. No one here is going the oilers route of saying, hey guys we expect to suck for a few years and then come back.

 

Here it has been "Our goal is to make the playoffs but we are not sacrificing any future to do so. We will sell expiring assets as needed and bring in competition for any holes in our roster that young players arent ready to take".

 

I'm just wondering, did Kevin Lowe ever actually come out and say they're going to suck for 5 years and tank for the highest pick possible?

 

I seriously don't think he did that and I also believe there are strict NHL rules against losing on purpose.  In other words, he couldn't have actually said that and gotten away with it.  Instead, he would've had to say something like this, "we expect to make the playoffs next season."

 

...which, sounds very familiar to what the Flames said.  Let actions speak louder than words.  If the Flames stay conservative this summer, then we all know they are being patient with a slow and complete rebuild.  If they spend to the cap, then they are serious about a quick retool.

 

 

I really think with a signed core of Wideman, Giordano, Glencross, Hudler, (Tanguay).. and ELC/2nd contract guys in Backlund, Sven, Brodie.. it sets them up ok here..

 

Whats obviously missing is top end talent...

 

What should really help in Feaster landing one... those 3 1st rounders and using them wisely in trades.  Obviously the top 5'er should be a keeper.. the others could be had in hockey trades for some more advanced budding RFA players/prospects... i.e. completely HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLES of players - Boedker, Henrique, Galiardi, Berglund, Haglen...  just exemplify the type of targets Feaster should aim those later 1sts+ at...

 

I really don't see the Flames keeping all their picks considering the late ones may be 2-3 yrs away... and the organization seems keen on a quicker than not turnaround...

 

They have assets to do it...

 

 

And to further supplement and address need... he has the cap space to buy the pieces in the coming summers.

 

I agree the Flames have solid depth.  What's missing is the top end talent and that's why it's imperative to tank it this season to get a top 3 pick.  Anything outside top 3 is a bit of a gamble, not to say they can't be game breakers, but just that it's more of a gamble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just wondering, did Kevin Lowe ever actually come out and say they're going to suck for 5 years and tank for the highest pick possible?

 

I seriously don't think he did that and I also believe there are strict NHL rules against losing on purpose.  In other words, he couldn't have actually said that and gotten away with it.  Instead, he would've had to say something like this, "we expect to make the playoffs next season."

 

...which, sounds very familiar to what the Flames said.  Let actions speak louder than words.  If the Flames stay conservative this summer, then we all know they are being patient with a slow and complete rebuild.  If they spend to the cap, then they are serious about a quick retool.

 

I don't think he ever said that... And nor do i believe he said "lets tank for 5 years". Instead, he justified the sub-par on ice product by stating that the team is rebuilding, and that it might take a couple years before they reach the playoffs. The Flames have not done that, nor will they. Their objective is, and will always be, to make the playoffs and to win a cup. Yes they are trying to get younger, and yes they had to make several serious changes to the team - but that doesn't mean they are stopping trying to win or doing a "patient, slow, complete rebuild". It just means that what they were doing was NOT working and therefore they needed to change their approach. Thats what they have done. They have retooled, rebuilt, re-whatevered the roster, will continue to do so in the offseason, and will begin another quest for the playoffs come september.

 

I agree the Flames have solid depth.  What's missing is the top end talent and that's why it's imperative to tank it this season to get a top 3 pick.  Anything outside top 3 is a bit of a gamble, not to say they can't be game breakers, but just that it's more of a gamble.

 

Meh, honestly I would prefer to see the young guns bring it & excel in the last 6 games of the season and then get a top 5-6 pick rather then see them fail, tank, and lose and allow that "its okay to lose" culture that has been witnessed in edmonton invade the dressing room and end up with a top 3 pick.

 

The ideal situation would be that they play hard, play competitive, develop and play good hockey games and still get a top 3 pick. Unlikely, but ideal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure that were any a better situation then Edmonton, I don't mean prospect wise either....

My concern is more to due with the health of the franchise and weather or not this city as a whole is willing to support a rebuilding hockey team? The oilers have always had history on there side, there fans are die hards devoted to there team, although you can see that devotion has a limit and they are growing tiresome of the losing culture up north, still tickets are selling, seats are full and there is hope for the future.

Calgary on the other hand was oh so very close to going the way of the Jets/Nordiques and forced to relocate, if it wasn't for a helping hand and the emergence of Jarome Iginla we would have seen our club share the same fate as our neighbours to the east. I find this very troubling when looking to the future, yes we have a few bright spots, but unless we hit it big at the draft and lure a few well known UFA's we are in for a long rebuild. Taking history into account I'm not the least bit surprised to hear King and Edwards pushing for the flames to get back to the post season ASAP. I can't help but wonder what kind of support this city will continue to show a loosing hockey club with no real emerging super stars to fill the void left by this seasons trades.

So yes we are in a better position then the oil when they started there build, but do we as a whole have the patience too see it through?

 

I'm not so sure I agree that the fans won't support it for long. I think things are so different now then they were back then. Calgary has tons of money flying around it didn't have then, you know with the cap there is an opportunity every year to improve your team and lastly rebuild are popular. I dont' think rebuilds where as highly thought of back then becuae the general belief was it took years for a young player to develop properly. I think now with the amount of young players that are NHL ready every year and the impact you have seen them make rebuilds are as popular as they've ever been. I think you are selling Calgary fans a little short and don't forget Edmonton went thorugh the same fears as well..

 

I have all the confidence in the world that Calgary has several years of going through a rebuild before they consider not supporting the team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure I agree that the fans won't support it for long. I think things are so different now then they were back then. Calgary has tons of money flying around it didn't have then, you know with the cap there is an opportunity every year to improve your team and lastly rebuild are popular. I dont' think rebuilds where as highly thought of back then becuae the general belief was it took years for a young player to develop properly. I think now with the amount of young players that are NHL ready every year and the impact you have seen them make rebuilds are as popular as they've ever been. I think you are selling Calgary fans a little short and don't forget Edmonton went thorugh the same fears as well..

 

I have all the confidence in the world that Calgary has several years of going through a rebuild before they consider not supporting the team.

Im in no way saying that I think this WILL happen, just HOPING that it WONT happen... The history in the NHL is ripe with finacial woes and failing teams. Im not so sure I could handle loosing the Flames....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im in no way saying that I think this WILL happen, just HOPING that it WONT happen... The history in the NHL is ripe with finacial woes and failing teams. Im not so sure I could handle loosing the Flames....

 

And the only way you have to worry is if the dollar goes back to the 60-70 cent mark and the energy sector dries up. a rebuild and fan support are not the primary worries for losing the Flames.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://pmd.fan960.com/audio_on_demand_2013/Jay-Feaster-with-Pat-Steinberg-and-Ryan-Leslie-PS,-RL-20130419-Interview.mp3

 

There isn't a Feaster thread, so I'll throw it in the Fire Feaster thread.  Feaster on the Big Show, answering a few questions about the remainder of the season, prospects, and future of the team.

 

 

( I think Peeps called in and left an annonymous voice message with Feaster ;) )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just watched his end of season presser.... It's good stuff, hit every point we have talked about in the forums here ad nauseum...  I recommend to watch, he even digs on the Oilers a bit lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the only way you have to worry is if the dollar goes back to the 60-70 cent mark and the energy sector dries up. a rebuild and fan support are not the primary worries for losing the Flames.

 

I think that it had a lot to do with a lot of different factors. You factor in that even with Iginla here, the team seemed in a downward spiral with no end in site to the depths of the leagues bottom dwellers, not quite bottom, but never any better or worse, so it seemed. The team was good enough to finish around the 10th overall draft position but never any high enough to vie for a playoff spot. They were 7 years out of the playoffs without a decent product on the ice and nothing to look forward to until Sutter came along and then traded for Miikka Kiprusoff. Kipper changed the whole outlook of the team and I believe if not for him, the Flames wouldn't have ever made the playoffs and the Flames would/could have been moved. Drafting hasn't been a strong part of the organization and so far, it's gotten better (so it seems). The jury is still out on these prospects as they've not had a real substance to gauge from in terms of NHL experience.

 

Give it another 4 years. If the team isn't showing any signs of improvement then I would worry then. 

Personally, I think Feaster lost my vote of confidence at this trade deadline as it seems that he's incapable of getting a return suitable for the players he has. Iginla and Bouwmeester should have got higher returns. The year he traded Reghr, he should have gotten more for him, and it's starting to look like a trend. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the only way you have to worry is if the dollar goes back to the 60-70 cent mark and the energy sector dries up. a rebuild and fan support are not the primary worries for losing the Flames.

 

Agreed.

 

Keep in mind there is also revenue sharing in the CBA now and that wasn't available back in the 90s.  If the Flames are one of the teams not making enough revenue, then we could share revenue with other NHL teams.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed.

 

Keep in mind there is also revenue sharing in the CBA now and that wasn't available back in the 90s.  If the Flames are one of the teams not making enough revenue, then we could share revenue with other NHL teams.

 

Well there was the Canadian equivilancy payments that the NHL was making to the Canadian teams to try and balance out the difference in the two dollars but I don't know who the relates to the revenue sharing they have now and if the revenue sharing would be worth that much more than that payment was and would it make a bigger difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

With Feasters past few weeks trades, his lack of trades at the draft, his team picking off the board with important picks.

 

What do you think of him now?

 

I personally think he should stay but we should re-evaluate our scouting staff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Feasters past few weeks trades, his lack of trades at the draft, his team picking off the board with important picks.

 

What do you think of him now?

 

I personally think he should stay but we should re-evaluate our scouting staff.

 

He should stay.

 

But I question what you are really asking or pointing fingers at.

 

"Past few weeks trades"  what did he do wrong?  We have limited assets to trade.

"Lack of trades at the draft" again what would you have him do.   You or I have no idea of what discussions went on.  Perhaps he couldn't find a suitor.  Perhaps other  teams wanted more than we were willing to give, perhaps he still has some trades in mind.  Perhaps no one wants any of the players we are willing to part with. 

 

The GM and scouts just picked up 3 solid 1st round picks that could turn into 3 top 6 forwards.   A stay at home huge chunk of a dman in the 3rd who just might (okay prob a big might) turn into the next Chara.  A 5th round pick that many people thought would go higher.

 

So just what did the scouting staff do wrong?   IMHO the scouting staff did their job, only time will tell if they got it right or wrong.  A look back at a draft 2 days later and a statement we should change our scouting staff because we took someone earlier than some journo/commentator's list thought we should have taken later.

 

Let the GM do his job.  It has only been his team for 2 years and even then he probably only got the green light to break the team up from owners 4 months ago.  

 

We all would like to see instant success and Lord Stanley in the trophy cabinet but that instant success rarely happens in pro sports and the constant changing of GM/ coaches is detrimental to the long term future of our club.  Certainly has not got us anyway in the past 9 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Missed his evaluation on the team for 3-seasons.  He expected a playoff team when the talent was 'no where close'.  This lead him to wait to long to make necessary changes pushing the rebuild back multiple seasons and failing to get maximum value for some of his biggest assets. 
  • Almost signed Richards to an excessive contract that would be haunting us now.
  • Attempted the offer sheet to O'Reilly which at best would have cost us our 6-overall pick and at worst we would have lost the picks and then the player on waivers.
  • Tried to trade down on our 6-overall to get a 29 year old second pairing D and a guy who is UFA in a season
  • Continues to over promise (guarantee we make the playoffs, Cervenka best player not in the NHL, Ramo/Berra best goalies not in the NHL, Sven not making the team the 'upset special', Poirier and Klimchuk to 13 on their list forcing his directive of scouting to give a metaphorical 'I guess', etc)
  • I think his next near miss will be offering an unreasonable contract to Lecavalier
  • Signing Sarich/Babchuk to extensions only to watch them sit the bench and take up cap space 
  • Under him the Flames are consistently under controversy 
  • He constantly puts his foot in his mouth.  The refusal to call it a rebuild.  His commitment that if the Flames want to tear it down then they can find a new GM.  Etc.  
  • I am sick of his stupid catch phrases.  'Post-Apex', 'Meritocracy', etc.  Maybe that is just me.  But it really bugs me.  

In terms of the transactions he has made most of them qualify as 'meh' moves.  Which isn't bad, but it isn't good either.  I don't have an issue with this draft and I don't think most of us are qualified to judge it until we see the results of the picks.  I like the people he has surrounded himself with.  I like what he has done for the development system.  I like the fact he has increased the scope of prospect acquisition.  

 

But overall I want him gone.  If we are going to have a GM that is constantly going for the home run moves then bring on a guy like Burke.  He might miss once in awhile.  But at least he is going to knock a few out of the park and he is far better then average on the basic transaction stuff.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love how everyone is an armchair GM with the draft when 99% of fans have never seen any of the prospects play outside of the top ones. Everyone is basing their reasoning on their brothers sisters uncles dogs friends dentist who lives next door to someone's grandmother. Unless you have watched some of these players play multiple times then you really have no clue what you are talking about. NHL scouts do this for a living, they are wrong at times but they are scouting 16 to 18 year olds. Its not an exact science on who is going to be the best player 5 years down the road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Missed his evaluation on the team for 3-seasons.  He expected a playoff team when the talent was 'no where close'.  This lead him to wait to long to make necessary changes pushing the rebuild back multiple seasons and failing to get maximum value for some of his biggest assets. 
  • Almost signed Richards to an excessive contract that would be haunting us now.
  • Attempted the offer sheet to O'Reilly which at best would have cost us our 6-overall pick and at worst we would have lost the picks and then the player on waivers.
  • Tried to trade down on our 6-overall to get a 29 year old second pairing D and a guy who is UFA in a season
  • Continues to over promise (guarantee we make the playoffs, Cervenka best player not in the NHL, Ramo/Berra best goalies not in the NHL, Sven not making the team the 'upset special', Poirier and Klimchuk to 13 on their list forcing his directive of scouting to give a metaphorical 'I guess', etc)
  • I think his next near miss will be offering an unreasonable contract to Lecavalier
  • Signing Sarich/Babchuk to extensions only to watch them sit the bench and take up cap space 
  • Under him the Flames are consistently under controversy 
  • He constantly puts his foot in his mouth.  The refusal to call it a rebuild.  His commitment that if the Flames want to tear it down then they can find a new GM.  Etc.  
  • I am sick of his stupid catch phrases.  'Post-Apex', 'Meritocracy', etc.  Maybe that is just me.  But it really bugs me.  

In terms of the transactions he has made most of them qualify as 'meh' moves.  Which isn't bad, but it isn't good either.  I don't have an issue with this draft and I don't think most of us are qualified to judge it until we see the results of the picks.  I like the people he has surrounded himself with.  I like what he has done for the development system.  I like the fact he has increased the scope of prospect acquisition.  

 

But overall I want him gone.  If we are going to have a GM that is constantly going for the home run moves then bring on a guy like Burke.  He might miss once in awhile.  But at least he is going to knock a few out of the park and he is far better then average on the basic transaction stuff.  

So maybe the best plan would be to move Feaster up to replace King in the business part of hockey.  Get Burkie in to do the hard-nosed stuff.  Even though he was canned in TO, he put a lot of things in place that will help them going forward.

 

My feeling with Feaster is that he negotiates like a lawyer, not a strong GM.  Also, you should never have a lawyer as your PR person.

 

I am not suggesting he hasn't done a lot of good things, or has bungled it up, just that a rebuild needs a GM with some moxie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...