robrob74
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Posts posted by robrob74
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11 hours ago, jjgallow said:
I am not entirely sure how we jumped from blaming the staff for playing injured goalies to crediting the staff for the goalies not missing much time to injury.
I might have missed something but....
there is a fine line between credit and blame
I mean, I understand. I am with you, I’d rather a player heal and play As close to 100% as possible. Hockey players seem to have the have to play through it attitude. It’s the culture.
But like you say, praise shouldn’t be given when say Monahan plays through an injury and even though he scored 30 something, he definitely wasn’t playing up to snuff or to a pace of a first liner.
then Rittich should have been sidelined last year instead of finding out later they hid the injury.
so therefore is it on management for not providing depth to cover the injuries?
i also feel like an injury to a goalies arms is very concerning if they’re still being played. It could mean a save not made at the wrong time. Or an early goal as a lot of times it takes getting warmed up to get the arms moving to feel ok with a small injury.
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5 hours ago, cross16 said:
usually both. Goalie coach normally does not have the final say.
Hard to say for sure without knowing the injury. There re plenty of injuries you can play through that don't risk further injury.
End of the day one aspect of the Flames I don't have a problem with is their medical team. I think they've done a good job in that area with injury management and prevention.
I wonder though if it is the medical team or the trainers that deserve the credit. The flames have typically been a fairly healthy team most years. Or is it playing style?
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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:
Scratch the concept of new glove due to a wrist injury.
Elbow, not wrist.
my elbow has been out for nearly three months from painting interior walls lol. Maybe it speaks more to my athleticism at my age... but the reps of pushing a roller and I can’t bend my arm very well. But only I’m certain motions. -
1 hour ago, travel_dude said:
I agree with your asessment. There is something else that occured in the last month of play.
Rittich changed his trapper.
There was no mention why, but he hasn't been stellar since he switched.
Other things played into his game stats, but it may not be a coincidence that he had an injury and was using a new glove.
Was it the same catching arm?
New ones are stiff? and it gets taking getting use to? I've not had new goalie equipment before. But I could see, with a baseball mitt, how the difference between a well worn one and a new one. But I guess that he'd have someone to break it in for him? Or is that a personal thing?
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2 hours ago, cross16 said:
It does not sound like the issue was serious. Bruising and stretched tendons so i would be bet a vast majority of an NHL roster would have something similar.
I'm not really concerned about the injury or having him play through it as it doesn't sound serious. However, where I do have some concerns is that sounds like an injury broght on due to fatigue or overuse. I think the Flames played the crap out of Rittich early in the season and IMO it was not necessary to do so. The model the Flames have had here for years is to take a very short sighted view of their goalies and just play the crap out of one of them early in the year. I wish they would take a long term view and maybe stuff like this doesn't happen.
Is that Head Coach or Goalie Coach?
They seem to say that the Goalie Coach as a lot of the say in who plays. Hey, he's the guru. Who are we to question? Of course, that's not aimed at anyone but the organization, and coaching staff. -
1 hour ago, jjgallow said:
I would not want Lehner now, no. I had higher Hopes for him some years ago.
Would still love to be wrong about Rittich
What he definitely is is a solid backup who can run with a bunch of games. I'd like to see him sustain his mechanics throughout a season before he gets a long term starter role. So far, I am disappointed because I thought he could do it. But for me, it's the ablility to maintain his mechanics. In last game, one could see the breakdown in his form as he panicked and got spun around a few times. It is something that a lot of the goalies coming through Calgary seem to be doing, not keeping their composure.
I think, rely on what you know and how you can play, you're going to get scored on, it happens, and always concentrate on making the next save. I think if his structure is sound, which we've seen him do, he can do well.
I am still not sold on Siglet.
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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:
The thing is, I like Rittich too, for real I do... just...not as an NHL starter. I never understood the process they took with him and, it doesn't look like I ever will at this rate.
Those guys are all getting old imho....there was a time I advocated for at least Lehner...many years agoo....I think we need to look for the Next Lehner/Holtby/Markstrom. A fresh start from the goaltender out. That's at least my take on it, and it's a rare draft year with a goalie that's nearly NHL ready who could easily drop to us. So you could very quickly make everyone happy.
Outside of him, there's a steep dropoff in the draft and you're back to acquiring up and coming NHL goalies (or I'd be advocating that)
yeah, but Lehrer hasn’t been that great either. Markstrom was bordering on bust until last season and maybe the end of the sEason prior to last.
So really, it could be that we already have that in one of ours and he moves on to better teams that have better defensive systems.
I don’t think that our Goalie coach Is doing a good job of managing them plus getting them brain ready.
the biggest issue i have is Rittich’s structure has broken down. His mechanics have gotten worse and there is no sign that they’re working on it.
lehner looked pretty leaky last time we faced him.
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57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:
Well, we seem to be entering that time of year where Rittich (and the team) is having problems getting wins.
Last year it didn't matter, since Smith was supposed to be the starter and Rittich took a back seat after his injury.
This year, Rittich was the man for Oct-Dec.
Since January, Rittich does not have a Home win.
Talbot has fared better.
In 2020, Rittich is 6 wins and 6 losses, plus pulled 2 times in games.
Talbot has fared better. 9 wins, 2 losses and 1 OT loss.
Draw your own conclusions from this.
A lot of games it has been the team play. You want goalies to win you games but then, cant have it that way too often. Their play has gotten better of late, but not consistent enough to be win consistently.
I am far from a goalie coach but I do see some flaws in his mechanics. He isn't tracking the puck as well as he was in the those first 3 months. I kind of think it could be goalie coach? I mean, you want to coach those mishaps out of his game. But then, it's so psychological that I guess you can't be in the goalies' head for them. I dunno what goes on with the goalie coach, so all i can do is speculate and go by past experience with our coach and goalies. It just seems the longer the coach has with the goalies, they tend to get worse. And Rittich started strong and got worse.
Or does Rittich thrive on a team that plays poorly and the better they got the more laid back Rittich has been. He tends to take it easy wihen the team is playing better. It was like that last year as well.
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4 hours ago, lou44291 said:
Agreed. It was one of those nights where I feel he took the team on his back and said “follow me”. Got the party started for us for sure.
that was probably one of his best games of the year.
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1 hour ago, cross16 said:
And I would agree. He has taken a step back for sure.
More concerning for me is the attitude. He is a fiery guy and I love that about him but for me he seems to be best when that spirit is channeled in productive/fun ways. Lately it seems to be directly more to the frustration side.
I can't say I blame him though. Watching the Flames fail to execute basic defensive details gets me riled up, and i'm not the one playing goal behind them. However, he still has to learn to cope with that.
Ya, true!
I don't know if that kind of emotions and anger towards the teammates grows old like some say in the media. I know that it's only beer league, but when our goalie yelled at us about a missed assignment, we knew we were playing it wrong and I agreed with it.
My only issue with getting called out is when it is done to only me and you see other players doing the same thing. I think if you call a spade a spade, you get it. The goalie would yell, "good job! Good back check! Awesome play!" when it was warranted as well.
My problem with getting called out is when Mike Smith did it the last few years to justify his errors.
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36 minutes ago, cross16 said:
James Neal returning to the lineup tonight. Needs 2 goals, and Lucic less than 5, for the Flames to get that 3rd round pick.
Neal was goalless in 8 straight and has only scored in 3 of his last 24 games dating back to November 23rd.
Let's hope he gets some PP time!
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2 hours ago, cross16 said:
The numbers do look bad, if we are talking about the Flames defensively that is. I have a hard time worrying about either goalie when the reality is unless the team cleans up their d play and can do it consistently, it likely doesn't matter which goalie you have out there.
I took a little closer look at the numbers since Feb 1st. In 15 games the Flames have been able to have what I would consider an above avg defensive performance (beat the league average of expected goals against/60) only 7 times. Those teams were Canucks, Blackhawks (funny enough this was the game they gave up 8), Ducks, Bruins, Red Wings, Bruins and then the Panthers. So of the 7 you have 4 teams that are out of the playoffs and 2 of the doormat NHL teams right now.
If you want to look at Talbot's last 5 starts the defensive numbers avg out to be:
2.38 ExGoals a/60
25.6 Scoring chances against/60
9.52 High danger chances/60
Rittich's last 8:
2.51
26.2
11.17
also interesting is that the Flames give up almost 1 full Rush attempt against/60 more with Rittich in net then Talbot.
This is why i would call it basically even right now. Talbot's numbers look better but he's gotten some better performances ahead of him. He still gets the small edge in performance, but at the end of the day for me it doesn't matter unless the Flames can get more consistent in executing their defensive coverage.
Thanks for the info.
I just think a lot look at the goalies' numbers and come to the conclusion that they're just not good enough.
I do believe that Rittich isn't playing at the level he was at in the begging of the year, but then, those were games when he stole a few wins for the Flames.
He's not Kipper, but I feel like Kipper was thrown under the bus at times as well.
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3 hours ago, travel_dude said:
Ignoring the 17/18 cam[aign for a minute, Rittich was injured last season.
He was not as good after.
Even so, his last 10 games he went 6-4 while Smith went 5-5.
Talbot's last 5 starts:
3-2 with 2 shutouts. 3 games with 4 GA and 2 with zero.
Rittich's last 5 starts:
2 wins, 1 loss, pulled once and 1 OTL.
A quick view would suggest that Talbot is playing better.
But his shutouts came against ANA and FLA, while his third win came against ANA.
I know the numbers look bad. I think there were a few where they looked bad but a few where they looked good but the GA weren’t their fault.
I hopebthe team can clean up the play. Yesterday wasn’t dominant but they gave Talbot a chance to see some shots and he got a ahutout for it. All he had to do was be square to the play.
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47 minutes ago, travel_dude said:
I wil chirp in here.
Things have changed since I started watching hockey (Gump, Dryden, etc).
Went from having pads that looked like leather chaps to Brodeur and Roy, who played with much better pads.
They were still making players look huge.
Look at Ryan Miller when he played in BUFF and VAN.
He looked massive, but he is a rake.
Bishop and RInne and Smith excelled when their pads were huge, and only Bishop has maintained his numbers.
Then again, he is a giant.
As far as drafting and development, we have mostly failed on the former.
Gillies was a college standout, and maybe things would have been different if he didn't miss an entire season.
The rest before him were meh.
Ortio, Irving, etc., etc.
Once removed from the Flames, they didn;t exactly do anything great.
Since Gillies:
MacDonald - miss
Parsons - too early to call; development hampered by injuries and personal issues; rounding back into form.
Wolf - seems like a hit; killing the WHL, again. Leads the league in just about everything if not everything. He is small, though.
In recent years the Flames have put winning in the AHL ahead of development. Part of the problem is carrying a goalie that should have been NHL ready by now and isn't.
So, I don;t know we should be reaching for a goalie unless he looks to be a can't miss.
Hard to judge a goalie that has looked good in 31 MHL, 18 VHL and 1 KHL games.
Numbrs not so great in WJC.
By comparison, Zagidulin had superior number in the KHL.
Hard to compare.
Rinne has looked good but I think age has been what caught up to him. I agree though that equipment has played a part in it. The thing I find weird with Gillies is that he starts the game looking like he belongs in the ECHL. He lets in a stinker or two and his game improves as his mechanics get better.i don’t get it.
the others looked ok but couldn’t put it all together for a long stretch. I hope Ritter can...
i kind of think it is the mechanics that have aided in the debate. Are goalies able to maintain composure enough to stick with their mechanics? Mental fortitude.
Rittich has shown signs of having it, but he gets off his game as the season wears down. It’s a sign they need to play Talbot more and something this team did last year too. They rose smith when it was clear Rittich was better. This year they’re riding BSD when it is clear Talbot has earned a few more starts. -
37 minutes ago, jjgallow said:
Starting to think of just making a clear case for Yaroslav Askarov.
If not, next stop is the third round for goalies. I mean, I don't know if I'd be behind trading up for him. But if he fell to us (which is very likely)...take the BPA despite it being a first-round goalie.
We do need a serious solution.
Do you think that goalies have gotten worse over the years since we were younger? I mean, something that I see is that there are only a handful of good goalies, and then one or two, maybe 3 that are dominant in the league. Then a lot are just average and on any team they could have good, average or below average numbers.
I agree with you that the Flames have done a poor job of drafting and developing a goalie since Kidd. Kidd could have been better but they rushed him. I don't know what they're doing, but they're failing at development. I'd say we are average at overall development as well. I think average because we can develop hockey players, but we are not developing any top line players. There are teams that draft deep into drafts and can develop guys to play there.
Have we developed Monahan? Gaudreau? Tkachuk? I guess that's where the, did we develop them, or were they just always going to be that good debate starts?
I like Rittich, but I get why you'd be frustrated with him. He is good enough to step up when needed, but like the rest of the team, he goes cold when it is easy to get complacent. Now that the team is playing he is complacent. I like Tallbot as well. But both have been very inconsistent but good throughout the year as well.
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51 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:
Plain and simple. Those are 10 huge points. Not in the race still without Rittich. He will bounce back and find his game again
how do they decide a stolen win? Feels like there are a few more than 5
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14 minutes ago, cross16 said:
yes I do know he said it i'm just not sure how real it is. Feels like something you say when you know you are being interviewed that is a bit of a hyperbole. I just didn't view it as a serious comment.
Doesn't really matter, i'm just skeptical he's going to retire at any point with the contract he has.
18 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:may have been heat of the moment , but i was watching the after hours interview myself, and he definitely did say that
he does strike me as a proud guy, if he ever hits the point where he feels the game has really passed him by,and hes no longer contributing and "having fun" as he put it , I could see him retiring as opposed to riding out the paycheck
I wonder how many times I've wanted to quit my jobs because it can be challenging sometimes. I'd want to quit as well if it were me. I don't think that benching players helps. I think it's actually hard on their morale and it's probably what has contributed to Bennett, Jankowski and other's slow starts. Playing scared of losing time makes you play safe. Sometimes safe makes mistakes because you're too cautious.
I wonder if there's not enough freedom for some of these guys. Bennett is a guy with more talent/skill than we see (I think). The same goes for Jankowski who has had between 15-20 goals in his first two seasons.
You don't score when you're stapled to the bench. When you do get on, I bet you can go go go, but then if you're benched for a mistake, then you become lethargic and not try to make mistakes.
I don't remember who I was listening to this year, but they attributed some success to getting minutes despite making mistakes. If they're not free to make mistakes, how are they learning. For me, when I make one, I feel Satoshi Nakamototier than anyone else on the bench. I am the first to say, I made the mistake. Be better, self....
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I’ve always said it that if they don’t ever play like a team and play team defence they will never win a cup. Maybe not in those words but I’ve seen this trend of breakdowns in play over the last many years?!we played better as a team off and on with GG and BP but still very prone to being hemmed in.
Goalies can’t have the success unless the team has it.
ok let’s look at Roy as a goalie.
meh has great teams in Montreal. They start to suck and he looks human and lets in a bunch of goals. Then he demands to be traded. He goes to the Avs and looks like a goalie god again. But with a bad Habs team he looks average.
our goalies AND any that are brought in are going to look bad if they have this team in front of them.
in fact this team is in a playoff spot only because of the goaltending and had the goalies not won games where the players were shot, we would be in the bottom of the league, lottery.
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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:
I would agree with you that he's not to blame for the day-to-day battles. For sure that's the team, etc. The usual.
But he is the reason why the Flames just have zero chance of winning the cup this year. Or close to zero.
We don't have cup winning goaltending period.
Just, the way I see it we need to set our sites a little higher, and stop asking how do we stay above 500 this weekend. We need to ask how do we win a cup. Then you Have to look at the goaltending.
I don’t think the same way. I am more of a goalies’ numbers will be a product of team play kind of fan. A goalie can only steal so many games. -
25 minutes ago, cross16 said:
well Ward has completely changed the team so I’m not sure I agree they are letting him go because he would continue the Peters style. Ward and Peters have proven to be very different.
Nothing to base this on other than my own opinion but I feel it’s more likely that the top end options don’t view Calgary as a favorable destination. If you can’t land a top guy you will need to do a search which is why I think he’s sticking with Ward.
for me there’s a difference between this year's Peters and last year’s. And I think Ward is closer to this year’s.
I liked the try of Lindholm as a C and he might’ve been our best C, but they should’ve kept Backlund as a C as well.
what worries me is, they’re not even trying to develop Bennett into a PK or defensive player. He shows skill on a breakaway and they don’t use him in the SO either. Not saying he deserves it. But then he scored two last night and then Ward seemed to shut him down.
when JANKO started scoring Ward sits him over other players. The choices are baffling.
until Lucic got his 5 in two games he wasn’t showing any signs of breaking out but they remain loyal to his PP time.
then the shuffling of lines and not sticking to any... as you can tell I am frustrated.
i think it’s amazing that the team is in this spot. The coaching itself is horrendous, and I think even without the drama the signs pointed to this team being where they are regardless.
its a weird mix of players and personalities.
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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:
What are we supposed to be?
I see no structure.
Hire a coach with a philosophy and build the team that way.
You don't need to rebuild until you know if you have the right pieces.
We have players assembled from other teams and were built here under different coaches.
And there is no approach that I can see to playing the game.
Strong possession?
Doesn;t work if you can't make a pass.
Strong D-zone?
I'm not seeing it.
Rush?
Nope?
Dump and chase?
Okay, that's our new game, which works for about 10% of the teams.
I don’t know if it started with BP but I think he definitely got away from what was successful last year and the previous years. The team hasn’t looked this bad since Hartley.
the thing I thought the team did great was (mostly, but my thinking was because other teams were not asserting themselves on us) breaking out of the zone, and entering the opposite blue line. After that, it was mostly perimeter play with the exception of Monahan. I think it was why it was easy to shut them down.
now we aren’t even that team. I didn’t see any of that play this year, even with BP.
I don’t necessarily think it’s lack of size as Mangiapane seems to get to the dirty area, but the team still doesn’t get to the dirty areas yet.
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12 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:
I’d have started Talbot last night, but it doesn’t matter, with an effort like that you could have Vasilevsky in net and still lose.
Without either goalie playing as well as they have this season, we are in SJ territory.
The issue is not between the pipes. It’s the lack of attention to detail from the skaters that’s been the issue all season
yup and I think that is team play.
i didn’t like the Saad goal but Saad also had a what seemed like an eternity to make whatever moves he wanted and still didn’t have anyone react to go take him after he made a move or two. It was disgusting.
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38 minutes ago, jjgallow said:
ok well if you need someone else to bad-mouth him just PM me
Kidding. Mostly. Rittich is a fantastic backup goalie. Like, the kind of backup goalie that you could go deep in the playoffs with and only be mildly concerned about rather than scared to death of an injury to your starter.
Why, however, we've made it our mission to develop backup goalies is totally beyond me and it just looks more and more ridiculous every single year.
To save people the suspense that's not going to change.
The one silver lining, is that when Flames fans turn on goalies, they Really.. really turn on goalies. So this mistake will inevitably be realized soon and he will get our full wrath as if he architected our development system.
The black lining, if you will, is that we've never learned from this. Historically speaking we are very likely to go out and do the same thing with another middle-aged goalie. Because no matter how dire our goalie situation is, the number one complaint is always that we need a "center", and we'll focus entirely on that despite other gaping holes in our team and development system.
and this is why i said most will only look at his numbers and point to it being on him and not the other glaring holes on the team. The numbers are proof in the pudding. But I think how Satoshi Nakamototy this team plays more into it than that. He hasn’t been the sharpest tool in the shed, but definitely not the reason for the team’s follies.
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4 hours ago, cross16 said:
Too long to quote but I agree with both of you. A long standing problem with NHL player safety and suspensions is they tend to penalize the result and not the action or intent and this is a prime example. Giving out a small punishment because Cernak was lucky and didn’t get hurt is ridiculous
I think the NHL needs to move away from using former players as the head of player safety. Stop the cycle.
go NFL, don’t they have a specific penalty for each infraction? An elbow to the head is this much! A player knows and it is enforced. The player knows of all of them. Then the rules are enforced, all of them.
it’s like in game. A ref doesn’t call a penalty and then the game gets out of hand. Players start to police the other team.
what happens when a guy is policing and then gets into a fight and then concussed. I guess the fact the refs suck can’t be put into a lawsuit. I guess that’s part of “the code” as well.
but I agree, player safety is too biased. Chara gets only a fine for his blatant cross check to the neck of Gallagher? He has a hard time swallowing, but One or two inches higher he breaks his jaw or he is spitting chiclets. the intent was there but again they penalized on the damage he incurred. A part of that fine is, it was Chara, who gets away with a lot, plus he plays for Boston, which has typically had lower suspicion lengths than average when they get suspended.
i also don’t believe they should be lenient on stars. Stars should get the same suspension as a 4th liner. To say that a player can do the exact same thing but because they’re more important to the team is BS. They need to have the same penalty and it’s their fault they cost their team possible wins. I think it sends the wrong message as well.
Goaltending
in Flames Talk
Posted
Take Glencross for instance. He took a team discount and then his body couldn’t handle a final contract. I dunno whether he would have played through injuries. Maybe not the greatest example, but I wonder if healing would’ve prolonged his career. But I think it is in the team’s best interest to heal the players and possibly get more out of them while healthy. If Monahan gets anymore injuries, say to his wrist, how many surgeries before it’s too many and his wrist can’t rebound/heal as well.