robrob74
-
Posts
14,355 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
58
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Videos
Events
Gallery
Posts posted by robrob74
-
-
7 hours ago, sak22 said:
Leading goal scorer, playing the entire season either with the biggest underachievers or out of position. 56 goals and 132 points in 2 seasons, plays all situations and multiple positions for under 5 million for 4 more years. If the entire team was up for sale I'd guarantee he'd get the most calls and possibly the best return. But the catch to moving him is you may never get a contract that valuable. So we have two still young players, one entering his prime and one still growing and showing positive signs lately, both locked up for 4 more years. After next season Dougie could potentially make close to both of them combined. Maybe you'd of rather moved Dougie to similar to what he cost us to acquire, but with that you run the risk of doing exactly what Boston did, 3 picks and 5 years later very little to show for. Crazy look at Boston in 2015, 3 straight 1sts and only Debrusk to show, the 3 their last one after were Barzal, Connor, and Chabot. They pick Forsbacka-Karlsson at 45 a few picks later is Hintz, Lauzon at 52 right before Andersson.
As many may doubt this, but at the time of the first Hamilton trade we had the Brodie-Giordano pairing, Russell-Wideman (Russell on his last year, and Wideman was in his 30's and already slow), and Engelland. Our prospect pool that was playing in the A was Wotherspoon, Cundari, Culkin, Ramage, Kulak, Sieloff and Morrison that is just scary. We left that draft with a 22 year old Hamilton, Andersson and Kylington. The Hamonic trade for sure a terrible waste, but I'll argue with anyone that the Hamilton trades were good moves for the Flames any day of the week.
hey! I am not meaning to put Lindholm down but at the time of the deal he was fully tending Backlund and that was what I heard from a lot of reporters and even heard worse on Hanifin, who I still don’t really like. I feel Hanifin has all of the tools but has no mind to use them.
Lindholm did get a lot of points last year from being on the first line. This year he had less. i feel the Backlund comparison is good. He only had 10 more points than him this year.
I do like him, I am just not happy with the deal and it was in response to us trading Fox in the deal, which I will always think it should’ve been a complete separate deal. We should’ve gotten that 2nd rounder.
look I really like him, I just agree that Hamilton for Lindholm as a straight up deal is fair value (at the time). And that’s what someone was equating it to. And sure Hanifin might have been worth more than Ferland. But I feel at the time Ferland had a Satoshi Nakamoto ton of intangibles that a lot aren’t recognizing in the deal.
all in all, I am just say that fox didn’t need to be in the deal. And I would’ve walked if I wee BT. Hamilton is a RHS first pair D.
I get what you’re saying. Good on BT for signing him at the contract. But we are forgetting that Lindholm was worth that when he signed. His numbers were pretty close to Backlund and Lindholm is pretty much seen as a winger. If Lindholm was worth more then why would he have signed for less than his worth with a brand new team. It just so happened that he worked really well with Gaudreau in the first year.
before coming to the Flames for Lindholm’s career he only averaged 37.6. Points per season. So I think his contract was quite in line with what he had done prior to coming to the Flames. It’s easy to say now after the season he had last year and this year to say he was worth it at the time. He did nothing before the deal to say this is what he was going to be.
then and I still somewhat agree with button them at Hanifin is a borderline 4/5 D. He’s not remotely close to Hamilton. He has no smarts. He has the tools but no box to put them in.
-
6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:
My biggest criticism of BT is that early on, he spoke about patience and that he's all about the future. Basically that he's committed to rebuilding properly and not rushing it.
Then his actions showed us something different.
Maybe the playoff win against the Canucks convinced him we were done the rebuild. He started to traded away picks for Hamilton and Hamonic... Who trades away picks during a rebuild? BT very quickly went from a guy who preached the future to a guy who was all about the shortcut-win-now trade (which I grant him, he was good at). BT also began signing some UFAs like Brouwer and Neal... Just thinking we were just a RW away.
agree! We were about two more top10 picks away plus some of the finds the team was able to get in the 2nd round. Now I feel like we have bare cupboards. There are a few possibles, but just not enough.
-
2 minutes ago, JTech780 said:
I have no issue with Treliving. Has he made some mistakes, sure, but pretty much every GM in the league has, even the Cup winning ones.
I do believe that he had to give this core every opportunity, and be patient with this core. That being said the time for being patient is over.
what I really didn’t like are the few shortcuts he made. I think it killed the cupboards and we have an average team due to it, and even more average in the future.
-
18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:
If the trade was just Hammy for Lindholm, that may have worked, but what would we have in place for top 4.
Many would be screaming louder for that particular trade.
Perhaps people can move on from a situation that never played out.
Whether we would be able to sign him is super important to the discussion.
Would we have gotten the return CAR got is unknown.
Hanifin is not as bad as you suggest.
He's got some growing to do, but a season and a half of BP, plus playing with Hammer was not a good place to be.
Blow it up is all or nothing.
The wreckage afterwards can be difficult ot fix.
Nothing is closer to the real situations with most clubs face and shoud do.
JH needs to go to improve the overall top 6.
We won't go anywhere with him on the wing.
Backlund has as much to do with the lack of success as he does.
A number 2 that doesn't score and doesn't prevent in 6 playoff games and 4 playin games.
Last year no different.
He's no ROR.
He's a valuable player to a team that doesn't have a quality #3 and no real #1.
Those two moves alone would help fix the top 6.
Moving Bennett up adds to it.
Lucic is a playoff weapon, but you don't need him playing 15 minutes a night regular season.
Sign Hall as he adds an element we don't have on LW.
A guy that can skate.
Whoever we go after for a D-man, it needs to be a puck mover and a solid defensive player.
Should be a 3 or better and a RHS.
Montour or Vatanen (UFA).
No!
Lindholm does not equal Hamilton! Especially the talk of the player Lindholm was in Carolina. He was a middle six player and Hanifin was a bottom 6D maybe a #4 and was his top possibility.
so there now you have Hamilton and Ferland for the two. I still didn’t see it as an even trade.
Lindholm hasn’t worked on the top line for well over a year now, well, since the all star break of last season.
and I don’t agree On Backlund. Had the top line performed for the two playoffs it’s possibly a different story. Without Tkachuk, Mangiapane could only do so much and the line started going when Lindholm got on it.
-
6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:
Replying to both @travel_dude and @robrob74, yeah I admit it really doesn't matter that much how obvious it was 2 years ago anyway. I just get frustrated when people still want to keep him and they will hold onto that belief until he literally has no trade value and then when they trade him they're like "worst trade ever" lol. Not acknowledging that their collective opinion and the collective resulting merchandise surplus is the driver behind that bad trade. Like what we saw with Iggie.
With regards to Adam Fox that was just an incredibly incompetent trade. Period. @travel_dude and while people's opinions on Gaudreau 2 years ago may not matter much now, that Adam Fox trade Does matter, we literally gave them an entire first line of world-beating D for the next decade and we got next to nothing in return, and... the GM who orchestrated this is Still screwing things up now. Yes, yes this trade Was obvious and it would have been a bad trade even if Adam Fox didn't become elite. Even if he didn't make the NHL.
i agree!
that Fox trade NEEDED to be a trade on its own. If that Blockchains the deal up then trade Hamilton to another team and get the value for a #1RHS D!
Ferland had value, it’s on them the re-sign him. Their fault for not being able to.
Lindholm is a good all-round player but not elite, but still much needed here. Hanifin sucks.
-
1 hour ago, jjgallow said:
We should have traded Gaidreau 1-2 years ago when he peaked, and it was quite frankly really obvious.
Of course the majority of fans were dead against it because of emotional attachment. Never saw an argument that made sense.
So we keep him, of course. Past his prime and we PROVE to the world that his playoff performance is beyond redemption. Now he's worth pennies on the dollar great work.
So these same fans will say "we'll never get a fair return" and it's like look if the playoffs matter to you at all, yes you will. We can get a return which will either improve our current playoff chances or a young prospect with all the promise of Gaudreau. And risk of course.
Same people are like "we got screwed on the Iginla trade" and then conclude that we never should have traded him.
We had to trade Iginla, we have to trade Gaudreau, we can't get better if we don't. The more we drag our heals the more it will be awful.
I think that for me, he’s not done. He’s done with playing in Calgary. Something has changed in him. I just don’t think a player scoring the way he was prior to all star break to just stop moving his feet the way he has. And he has looked disinterested since.but maybe you’re right, the value would still have been higher 2 years ago. Last summer even, coming off of the 99.
-
1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:
If the Flames are willing they can get themselves a #1 goalie this offseason. There’s also a chance that Dustin Wolf pans out. That’s one big hole taken care of.
I would argue that Vegas doesn’t have a #1 centre and they are every bit of a cup contender. That’s because they have the right mix. All 12 forwards play it the right way and come at the opponent in waves. When you have that kind of structure you can get away with it.
i w we ours take 3 Backlund’s on a team if the wingers are the right mix as well. Backs is amazing at pushing the play up ice. I’d wish for one being a bit bigger though 🤪
-
1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:
I don't think the Flames need to go scorched earth like Ottawa did, but they do need a retool.
PHI in 2011, BOS in 2015 and NYR in 2018 are all teams who have retooled on the fly with success. Flyers made the playoffs immediately, too BOS 1 season and NYR is poised to be a playoff team by 2021.
It can be done with some smart trades and maybe even a little lotto luck like NYR has had.
The Flames have some really good pieces to build around, the mix they have just isn't quite right. I'd say the team is bent, but not broken
1 hour ago, The_People1 said:I don't know man. I agree we have good pieces but when what's missing are a #1 Center, #1 Goaltender, and RHS everything... Those are the hardest to get.
I think both are true. I am with Jtech as well, being afraid of BTs vision or lack of one. He has been good at drafting but so far lacking in building a team or vision or culture within it. I am not saying he’s a bad GM, as he’s found good players in the draft, NHLers, more than in years past. He’s done some decent Contracts and has been around 35/65 on UFA signings and About 50/50 on trades.
I feel like we are trending to Iginla days. Filling holes without a vision or the ability to fill them with high end players.
I think cohesion is missing. Then there’s #1C/D/RW/G, #2C, 3rd/4th line players that fill the job descriptions. I don’t think those are as easy as it sounds. If they are why haven’t we found them?
we didn’t sign another Hathaway out of college.
-
2 hours ago, JTech780 said:
IMO this team is a piece or two away from being a Cup contender, the problem is that those pieces are an elite number center and an elite number 1 defenseman. Do that's to say this team isn't close at all.
It makes little sense to me to try and trade Gaudreau and/or Monahan for pieces to help next season, because we aren't going to get that elite number 1 center/defenseman.
I think we need to trade those pieces and look for draft picks and prospects. I am tired of staying in the middle of the league, I would rather be bad and building towards being great than just being good, but never good enough.
I agree!
and I wish players like Fox would have stayed in Calgary. It’s too bad players are allowed to not sign with the teams that draft them. What’s the point of a draft or being in a draft in that case?
But I agree. We need those high end finishes in order to be upper.
we gave up a lot for Hamonic, a lot for Hamilton, a lot for goaltending for so many years.
I see it being a bit in line with Peeps and JJ, needing to re-stock/rebuild. The cupboards are a little bare for my liking.
so can we trade off Johnny and Monahan for a few high picks? I’d test that option.
maybe Monahan to Ottawa for one of their picks. We really need the #1c, or get into the top 5-6 picks From a team.
trade Johnny to Jersey for one Or both of their high picks and possibly a future pick.
-
16 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:
I think you have to prioritize skill though. Otherwise it’s very hard to find it. Just look at free agency these days, it seems to be getting thinner and thinner every season. Draft picks are just so valuable that you need to try and maximize them. You can find guys like Hathaway as college free agents, it’s not really worth spending a pick on IMO.
The Flames typically drafting smaller players isn’t just exclusive to them. Now more than ever smaller players are getting more and more opportunity, due to the emphasis on speed and skill. The big kids are having a harder time keeping up. Which is why the Tom Wilson’s and Tkachuk’s are so valuable. Most kids in junior that play a game like them just can’t keep up
I ok with drafting smaller players. It’s just hard when you see other teams finding grittier guys with skill. All of our recent grads have been Mangiapame, Dube, and the next is probably Phillips. With smaller guys you can hit all you want but they’re just gonna bounce off the guy with no worse for wear on the opponent.
I like their will and it’s the attitude you want out of players. It’s hard when it’s coming from your smallest guys - aside from Bennett that is.
-
2 hours ago, jjgallow said:
YUP. I'll add, it's kind of good that Burke left on his own terms. Or so they say he did. That's what Hazel said anyway.
Burke would be my main target right now had he not already removed himself.
the GM I wish we could have nabbed was Lou Lamerello. I think he righted Toronto and then they hired an idiot to replace him. Then Lou fixed NYI.
probably not all Lou but, I feel we need a direction and I fear BT’s direction is draft skill and go from there. Skill ya great, but I feel it’s not everything.
-
I really feel like BT isn’t really chasing his vision. He wants to play a style that the team can’t play long term.
plus culture of the team is horrible.
o think it is mentally soft. Maybe not physically as I too don’t see them backing down in hits.
-
1
-
-
28 minutes ago, travel_dude said:
Is it really fragile? They blew a lead in a game and couldn't stem the tide.
It happens that every once in awhile a combination of things results in a blowout.
How poor a decision it was to try to change momentum by switch to an ice cold goalie.
Does not excuse the team at all, but I don't see it a fragile thing.
If anything, this team developed a thick skin with all the distractions and such.
Doesn't mean they played well, but they never seemed to panic.
Poor performances and fragile are two separate things.
2018/19 fragile? Yes, I suspect.
They overcame no adversity.
a team that is not fragile is able to kill one of those Lucic penalties, or come back and start skating again. A fragile team quits. They quit. -
19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:
I think what he is saying that these C's had 5 years and nothing has improved.
Backlund is a fine player, no question.
Same way Gaudreau is a fine player.
I don't think that's up for debate.
Your core doesn't get it done, time to look at improving/trading the core.
Barrie and Kerfoot not helping the AVS get it done.
Time to move on.
I get the reference, but they got Kadri for that. Can we get a Kadri ? Can we get a #1 or #2 C ?
-
1 hour ago, JTech780 said:
For me right now Gaudreau, Monahan, and Backlund should all be available and on the block. If the offers are good enough you move them. To me that is the core group, that has failed for the last 5 or so years here. You can add Gio to that, but he isn't going anywhere. Don't get me wrong either, I really like all those players, but this core has had plenty of chances to get things done and it hasn't happened and it hasn't worked, and those are the guys who need to take the fall.
I still don’t think Backlund was a problem. After Tkachuk goes down he ends up with just Mangiapane. He looked a bit better with Lindholm. I’d keep them together. Tkachuk, Backlund and Lindholm.
what Center are we getting to play with Tkachuk? We need a #1 but it’s going to cost and it’s rare.
-
1 hour ago, tmac70 said:
So we lost in similar fashion last year, this was a larger collapes than last year. This club has no killer instinct to it, that comes from leadership. All of us refer to our best players, which really who are they? Stand outs were Benny and Dube, yet months ago Benny was being booked onto the next bus out of town, now he is oneof our better warriors. If I am him I want out. This club has failed in every aspect of his development, that falls on Tre. Tre's strong ponts have been contracts to fair deals, drafitng has improved but really that was not that difficult to do. My question ahs always been how is it other clubs can find gems and we find fools gold. So based on last year as we were suppose to have learned from this, are we any better, simple stated NO. The problems have yet to be addressed. First what is are largest issue, players, coaches, management or culture. IMHO i would break down in these percetnages, Players, 30%, coahces 10%, Management 10%, Culture 50%. Now the culture really falls into the scope of management, however, if you don't have the type of make up to create a better culture you have piss poor management. Take Hamilton for example, great dman now on his 4th team why? Before Tre went out and traded the world for a guy that could not fit into this culture falls on him. Hamonic, Brouwer, Lucic it goes on and on. We fail to realize this is the club he built and its fails under ever pressure situation. Having a bad ending to a season happens repeating two years in a row is plain stupidity.
Whats the soltution? We need a 1st line center, top pairing D definelty a goalie a coach and a top 6 right winger and a winning culture. I know there is talk of geting Petro dream on that isn't happenig. Hall I can see however if he wants to win a cup, sign a short term deal with COL they are further ahead than we are. Trading JG to sign Hall is pointless its a laterall move at best. SIgning Hall to play with JG makes us better. We have now leared Dube and Bennett can play when given team mates to do so. We also learned our Captain is on a huge down turn. Hanifin is not as bad as he appeared with a better partner. Monahan is not a top line center nor is Lindholm. Our goalie situation is lack lustre as well. Brodie and Hammer will walk area of soreness with me, any assets were better than no assets coming back, neither should be back, which much like the Hamilton trade we paid huge with nothing to show.. Some have mentioned that getting anything for JG if he wants to leave is better than nothing, similar situation.
I fully agree! The culture is all wrong and there’s very little cohesion. They show small spurts of it.
I also dream of finding gems in drafts that other teams seem to always do. It’s hard.
we’ve heard growing pains too often. We are built on too much skill and not with guys to win at all cost kind of players. Skill is great! But then if they’re not wanting to win more than another team, it’s not there.
Plus, how much more skilled are we compared to other teams?
-
4 hours ago, sak22 said:
Hey I was just throwing it to how you worded it. You never mentioned anything about his "virtue signaling" to his core you alluded to it being making difficult decisions and he probably had better relationships with UFA's he signed and coaches he's hired than a core of players who were mostly here before he started, and I don't know what his personal relationships are with all those players, so I don't think that is stopping any movements as much as a thought of if it will help the team. Gaudreau and Tkachuk we could probably move to most teams, Monahan would have a lot of takers, Gio maybe not as much given his age. But for every good trade of stars there's probably 2 or 3 bad ones.
Pittsburgh got lucky in the 2 years being able to get Malkin and Crosby, because they got absolutely nothing for Jagr and Kovalev in their sell off trades. Perhaps in today's day and age instead of Malkin and Crosby they get Barker and Pouliot. Good chances they aren't even in Pittsburgh if that's the case, and that would boil down more to what they got in the trades. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for, I'm down for a major change, but I think we have the pieces to do a retool instead of heading to the lottery and relying on that. I just watched a series where probably the best player on the ice was a #3 pick who is hands down better than the #1 and #2 and worse than the #5 and debatable if he is as good as the #4.
not to mention getting Fleury.
-
2 hours ago, jjgallow said:
Just a general reminder guys, there is a reason why "Fire the Coach" is widely seen as the dumbest fan response above all other fan responses.
We've tried it twice under BT. If a GM has to go through 3 coaches and still can't put together a team that isn't embarrassing in the post season....
Well you know.
Enough time has passed, enough coaches have been fired and enough poor player moves have been made that there is only one constant in this.
well, Ward wasn’t really BTs guy. Peters was. We said it earlier in the year that BP walking away gave BT a chance to hire another. If ward worked out, great! But he hasn’t.
sure the team looks fragile... I still think it’s both!
what is with the rhetoric in Calgary? Iginla’s teams were un-coachable, now we’re fragile! Something in the water?
-
5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:
So Ward is done right? He over coached in the most important game of the season/playoffs.
yup!
it looked like he finally got the guys going. It they somehow beat themselves in the second period, even when Dallas wasn’t even going or doing things well. -
6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:
Maybe a more important question we should ask is, if BT goes rebuild-mode this off-season, then does he extend his leash a few more years? He buys time right? Because we want to evaluate what he did worked or not?
BT has always looked for the shortcut win-now trade. Unironically, this team needs a good win-now trade right now. And in a sense, he's gone so far so why stop now? Go big or go home?
yup! But I am afraid of trading more picks to pick up the slack for the goaltending needs, and after tonight it is possible Ward completely killed the possibility of both goalies next year.
and like some said, not playing Rittich for Two playoffs for goalies that were both UFA was poor management.
now we have what to look for:
Starter
1C
RW
2 RSD
BackupLW (Hall)
a few of those shortcuts was poor pick management. How many goalies every year? The door keeps revolving.
-
45 minutes ago, The_People1 said:
It doesn't allow me to vote because i started the topic but i would say i'm at a Level 2. I'm at least one more year away from Level 3.
SInce Treliving has been here, it's been a honeymoon ride all the way. It's hard for it to not have been because he took a totally rekt team in 2014 to Conference best last season. He hasn't really had to face harsh criticism until his team totally flopped in last year's playoffs. This is really the first season where Treliving had a microscope on him. The team came into the season with cautious optimism and i feel the final result affirms everyone's worst fears. The team he put together isn't good enough.
Now my biggest concern is that he's too married to his core that he can't make the right but tough moves. I'm willing to give him one more year to show us. I know it's so crazy to say in this world of extreme virtue signalling but if he's able to put aside personal relationships for strictly business then i think we have the right guy in charge.
honestly for me, even in a season we were #2, I felt the problems were lying underneath the whole time and they slowly came out last season. It’s been a slow fall.
I don’t know. I am worried we get into trading picks to save the team.
Hamilton wasn’t the worst deal but I’d have liked Barzal right now.
plus I’d like to have been able to use the picks in the Hamonic Trade.
although we don’t have lindholm and Hanifin. Although Hanifin did nothing against the Stars.
but you’re right, he has been one of the better Flames GMs.
-
1 hour ago, travel_dude said:
I could care less about entitled fans thinking they should get a buy into the playoffs or get a different matchup.
They got the best possible seeding, and chose to play like whiners.
If they had 16 and played according to seeding, they would have played 7th place which was VAN I think.
That would have been worse for their mentality.
Rebuild 1.0 vs Rebuild 3.0 and counting.
They aren't exactly primed to be a better team next season.
Kassian, Neal and Nurse's deals are killing them.
yup! And Reider isn’t scoring for them...
but is scoring shorties for us...
-
8 minutes ago, cross16 said:
I think the fan base has the right to be upset about the pick, it was a questionable ruling for me too.
but for how the playoffs worked? ya sorry you can cry me a river on that one. Vegas made quick and easy work of Chicago too.
my guess though is, Neal had some injuries this year and then was possibly getting healthier. They could’ve gotten him some goals in the last 11 games if he was healthy by then.
they should’ve allowed the Play-in Rounds count for regular season points/goals. I don’t know if he scored against Chicago.
-
30 minutes ago, cross16 said:
An interesting take and conclusion on the Lucic - Neal swap from an Edmonton writer.
read it and my guess is the whole fan base probably feel a bit shafted by them having to play Chicago and the prorated ruling. “Second place in the division didn’t mean” a lot to the NHL. And upset about the prorating of the goals.
I don’t think any team should be pissed as I feel it was the onus on Edmonton to win the series. If they were actually better than they say or think they are, they’d have won. And I don’t feel any argument should matter because every team that played the playin rounds started from the same place.,the only benefit I see is, teams with injuries prior to the break got healthy.ok oilers get to play the round robin, they still need to be playoff ready and are probably out by now if Chicago could oust them.
Geoff Ward, Flames 18 th coach
in Flames Talk
Posted
god you look at what the islanders are doing under Trotz!!! The buy in! The team game.