conundrumed
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Posts posted by conundrumed
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16 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:
yes you can.
DD in Edmonton comes to mind right off. Add to that the organization(Mctavish in particular) showed no confidence in him. They ended up getting rid of their goalie coach after but the damage was done.
It was long after his departure from Edmonton, before he was able to find a proper goalie coach who instilled the confidence in him and his abilities again.
He found success in an incredibly defensive minded system. Like Mike Smith and every goalie that lands in Phoenix. Is that Burke, or team play?
Minny is really no different.
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28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:
Some common ground....this is uncomfortable
"You had one job" comes to mind. It is somewhat of a paradox that with so many goalies coming out of our AHL system being deemed NHL failures lately, the only person who had the sole job of developing those same players in the AHL since 2011, gets a promotion out of it to the NHL.
Followed by the subsequent failure of Every NHL goalie, including proven ones, once it was his sole job to develop and maintain their performance.
Amazing story, amazing person. But ......
One question.
Who is accountable, the goalie or their coach?
For me, blaming the goalie coach is easily secondary to the goalie's attributes and headspace.
If I'm a goalie coach, I can teach flexibility and angles, I can't teach a style you don't play, reflexes etc.
I can't turn Wideman into a goalie and I can't teach a good goalie to be a bad one.
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22 hours ago, jjgallow said:
You missed Giguere among others. That's really where the arguement should start (or Trevor Kidd). And it ends with Brossoit. Say what you want, the Flames clearly want that trade back. I could disagree with you on those other points but the bottom line is that we DO have a history of mishandling goaltenders and Everyone on this forum knows it. That's all I'm saying. Anyone who rejoices 0 games in over us parting ways with a young goalie, either does not know or chooses to ignore our track record (and apparently the preseason too).
I was never terribly down on Ortio, but he was coming off of a 1 way. Is he getting another this year? Not on your life.
Doesn't hurt to keep the position liquid until you find a final answer.
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Everyone looks at the, "he got this guy, good, he got this guy, bad".
From an organizational standpoint, though, he has it going on.
I believe we have kicked the crap out of most everyone but Phoenix at the draft table in his reign.
Gaudreau-Mony
Tkachuk-Bennett
In a yr, that looks like a whole lot of trouble, and "heavier" team to me.
The 2nd pairing is going to be mayhem, I have little doubt.
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Ortio just signed in Sweden. Wish him well, still get the feeling he has some untapped potential there. Man..we really don't have luck drafting goalies!
With Gillies, MacDonald and now Parsons, I think our luck is about to change.
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You've also gotta remember jj, it's all sown in very tightly, even Wideman, you can't just wave your hand in the air and be done with it.
Each move comes at a cost, getting Brouwer and getting better answers at G are busy brushstrokes that maybe you can't make if you're shopping to improve your most expensive in the league D.
My problem with the D is that it's too expensive.
When I hear Brouwer at a little too long for too much I can't help but laugh. We spend 1/2 the cap on D.
Now that it's not just Bennett, but Tkachuk also coming soon, I love the Frolik and Brouwer signings as our vets.
But getting back to D, the costs will drop at the end of the year.
And there is a flip side in that Wideman's playing for a contract, so that might mean something.
But shifting $9mil out of D and into forwards is something I'm really looking forward to.
Better guys up front will help the GF-GA ratio.
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The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton.
They have two, if Giordano stays healthy and competitive. Hamilton is not top 3. He has limitless potential if developed properly. It's different.
They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland.
Are you messing with me?
They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.
Seriously, are you messing with me? They do have Some D prospects worth discussing and neither of these two are them.
Sure the goal against was poor last year.
No, it wasn't poor. Poor, is below the league average. We were last in the league.
Last. In. The League.
Poor is not an acceptable choice of words to describe that.
But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.
Last in the league. And we kept it basically the same. We have some offensive defencemen, yes. That isn't the issue or even relevant, really.
The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.
The suggestion was that we didn't upgrade our D. The D position. Tell me that's wrong. If you can't do that, it's because you're honest. If you can, it's because you're twisting things. Like the original statement.
I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.
Nothing is the end of the world, true.
There's a lot of validity in jj's comment's, call it the Gallow's Poll lol.
We are, literally, the worst D in the league.
Who gives up 260 in a year? 30th in the league. 30th. It's a 30 team league.
We just did, that's who.
So we can patsy around this "little problem" like it ain't a big deal. But it's a huge deal.
If our goalies are always so bad, why can't our D pick up the play?
Again. Team problem, and a big one.
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There seem to be articles everywhere about how close Bishop was to being a Flame. Say he was in the process of working out a new contract when they traded for Elliot. I guess BT didn't like the #s.
At least it means he wouldn't be averse to playing for Calgary. Something to keep in mind if he hits UFA.
I like that BT was all over everything, that's what he's hear for.
I'm hoping bigtime Gillies pulls a Holtby!
Imagine a world where we had a valuable asset or 2 to trade, as opposed to, not much value to "get rid of".
But as you allude to, the conversation is open to Bishop, could that be a leg up?
What I had read was that Bishop was in discussions and was surprised that they went a different direction. He also said that the report of want 7x7 was a farce. The tipping point seems to have been Stevie Y wanting too much.
Stevie's managed the elbowing out of everything this past year. Impressive.
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Obviously the coach and the G are important for team defence, but D is D. It's the nuts and bolts of it, sorry.
The Flames had the Worst goals against in the league and they:
1. Did Nothing to upgrade their D
2. Hired a coach who is known to be offensively slanted.
Elliot will probably hide a lot of this. On a team that had a defensively responsible coach, and a top D core, he could be a cup winner right now.
Instead, he will mask the problem. Make it even less likely that it'll ever get addressed. Much like Kipper did at the same age. Hiller too.
You will see Elliot come in strong, and then you will see his stats decline, just as Kipper's did, just as Jonas Hiller's did, just as Ramo's did. And the cycle will repeat until the Flames finally figure it out one day.
It's a waste, imho. An upgrade, yes. But a poorly thought out one, and a sadly predictable one.
I sort of agree with you jj, but it IS team D that has be come sadly predictable. Every goalie since Kipper has shown it, can't keep blaming goalies.
But just like JTech is saying, we have to get on hot puck pursuit. Our roster for the '04 roster kinda sucked. But what did Sutter do there and what is he doing with the Kings?
There are times when you have to say GA are a product of the team, I believe this is one of them.
Too tentative and scrambly on D, it's like the zone our teams go to to catch their breath.
Get everyone chopping salad and getting after it in the neutral and D zones and I seriously believe we'll see a difference.
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Russell and Wideman were dominated by the Ducks in the second round. We need better. We shouldn't spend $8-mil on this combo again. Time to move on.
But our top pairing is Gio and Brodie, not Wideman and Russell.
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I'd much rather sign Nakladal than Russell.
We're so fickle and short term.
It was only 2 seasons ago when Gio went down and Russell and Wideman stepped up to the extreme.
They played a ton of hockey. Last year they got off to a flat start like the rest of the team, it just kept compounding with shoddy goals and never finding a rhythm, like most of the team.
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So, I guess I would ask (sorry to abbreviate your quote).....which one is it?
Do we need salt, or do we need a smallish forward who we put on the D position?
Maybe....if we were less inclined to acquire small players who aren't really defencemen, and play them as defencemen...
Maybe...then, we wouldn't need as much "salt"....and maybe we could then actually use a real defencemen, instead of putting "salt" there?
Why not just have good defensemen?
I dunno. I guess we'll see soon enough.
p.s....I think your rumor is correct.
Again, the Van series, if we didn't have an answer, they'd have taken full advantage.
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Wideman is an issue, there's no doubt about it. You are right there. And I'm not seeing the rebound year for him.
Hamilton needs guidance. I don't feel he's getting it. I don't think he got it from Hartley. I don't think it's a skillset of the new coach either (hoping I'm wrong). He could be one of the truly elite D in the league, or he could become another wideman. I was hoping to see them either bring in the right coaching assistant, or a veteran D mentor for him. I applauded his acquisition. But if they don't have a development plan for him, they shouldn't have made the trade to be honest.
Engelland? We can't do any better there?
I like Jokipakka, but I don't like him enough. I like him a lot on the Heat.
We essentially have two great D. Brodie and Giordano.
Giordano is getting old. Argue it, start a thread, but he's Still...getting old.
That's it.
Wideman, no. Hamilton? Loads of potential. What are the Flames going to do with it?
I honestly see the Flames as having two top-four defencemen in the top 4 that belong there. Brodie and Giordano.
I would put a plan together for Hamilton, I would get an upgrade on Wideman (preferably younger). And you would have an ok top 4. For now.
Bottom four, I would almost start over.
But in terms of cap, I believe we're the highest in the league allocated to D. My thinking is the problem is more about getting D dollars in line in favour of making other improvements. Smid and Wideman are erased for 2 $4mil forwards, not for more D spending in my perfect world.
With that, I think improvement becomes trading a top 3, I wouldn't pull that trigger atm.
To say Engelland and Jokipakka needs much upgrade, I don't agree. Your 5-6 aren't going to be Hamhuis-Lindholm unless they're 19 on ELC's.
Engelland is salt. Salt we need and the salt we lack. Bollig isn't scaring anyone.
Pull Engelland out of our roster in the Van series. Van tested the dirtier waters of changing the tides of the series. It was Engelland that held that fort.
As a 6-7 and a definitive need, I wouldn't argue over-paying for that.
As kehatch said, you're turning white into grey, I kind of agree.
We have long been too scrambling in the d zone. That isn't the d core, it's the team D imho.
Just for conversation, I don't have a link, but it's being rumoured that Calgary will sign Russell again at much cheaper than his original hopes.
Russell at $3 when Smid is done?
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I can't actually read the middle paragraph, speaking of drinking.
Put it this way.
Most teams, after getting more goals scored on them than anyone else in the league.... upgrade their defencemen in Some way (unless they're trying to tank).
Getting more goals scored on us than any team in the league, and making no upgrades to our defencemen, is a new strategy in the NHL.
We will see how that plays out.
I wonder what would you do to upgrade the D?
I get upgrading Wideman as the #4, but that can't be the sole upgrade you mean, or I'm surmising it isn't.
I'm of the belief it is team D that is giving us grief more than hucking it all on the D corp.
The coaching has puzzled me also, as zone entries are far too easy with the D pretty much never stepping up to create harder entries.
I don't put it down to the bodies we have on D so much, so I'm wondering if you could specify the upgrades you mean.
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hmmm
Speaking of opinion...
All I know, is that the Flames did zero to upgrade their D. And their D was, imho, below average. Without question, it was not Stanley Cup D.
Anything is possible, but the Flames brought in an upgrade on G, without the other necessary positional upgrades.
If you're saying Elliot could win a cup...I agree. I would even to so far as to say you're under-selling him. He's much more than competent.
But win a cup on his own? Not gonna happen. And he is already on latter half of his prime. Had they developed someone younger who would be around for future improvements on D, then that someone could potentially contribute to a cup run.
So yes, the Flames upgraded G. But as a temporary measure. Again.
Gio was trying to come back from LTIR, Brodie was injured to start, Hamilton was just traded for the 1st time in his life.
Dude, here's the improvements:
Giordano is healthy and in perennial Norris-challenging form.
Brodie is healthy and definitely one of the most exciting Dmen in the league.
Hamilton will define his role as a Top 2-3 guy.
If Wideman plays a 30-40 point season? I don't see where upgrades on D mean much.
Upgrade on Joki, Engelland, Wothers etc?
I really don't think our D requires repair like the forward spots do.
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At least Francis isn't saying too much about Johnny right now. If he did, he would be saying things like "miles apart", "wants to play in the East after this contract", etc. He should be nicknamed Click-bait.
It's because Johnny is unassailable in league-wide opinion, otherwise it would likely be quite painful.
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Eric Frances *spit* was on NHL radio saying the Flames have already started talking to Elliot about extension.
Frances thought it was really dumb, so I guess it's probably really smart!
Good ol Eric tends to overlook considering things before being hyper-critical.
Elliot's a vet, you know his game. Your welcoming him and letting him know he is sorely wanted here. He is the guy they want, opening extension talks tout suit let's him know we want him to have stability for his family and we believe in him.
Now if our Sun reporter had an ounce of class, he might understand what it looks like...
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I have.....just a hunch, that Pribyl will translate directly to the NHL, and then continue to grow all season.
We'll see soon
Recovering from ACL surgery, so it won't be directly out of camp, for sure.
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Prybil will take some time but but it would be so satisfying for one of these touted European forwards to make an impact with the Flames. Nakladal did well going down thru the AHL first so let's see if Prybil's game can translate to the NHL.
It's nice that we're running through all facets now. Our drafting has been up around the top of the league for a couple years now imo, we're adding a dusting of International and NCAA FA's.
No saying who becomes an NHLer, but imo the train is firmly on the tracks to give ourselves a good shot at a solid pipeline to draw from, at last.
In a year or 2 I'd surmise we'll start seeing we have more positions of strength to draw from in filling out the roster/trade values, at last.
It's been yrs and yrs that this has had to be fixed and I'm really digging the progress now. Still work to do, but it's come a long way from being diabolically loathsome.
Our scouting is impressive and my general feel is that they are being given more respect for decision-making.
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Who was the top goalie prospect in the draft?
Did we pick the first goalie again and then not get the best of the draft?
Is Demko still a better prospect than McDonald?
That might not be fair boss.
Teams have their lists.
They ensure they get their #1 guy, I don't take much issue, again, leaving to the scouts. Do you guys like him that much? Will he be around at our next pick? Guessing they got a resounding "NO" with MacDonald and Parsons.
Can't deny they were targeted and judgement day is a ways off yet.
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BT is quietly assembling some talented goaltending prospects for the system.
I agree. I know some were perhaps rightly put off of 2nds for a goalie, but the position is unique so the EXACT guy you want you have to make sure you get. Skaters on the other hand have a ton of "similars" each.
It's really nice to see drafting we can comprehend. Imho I thought we had too many years of over-riding scouts or bantying about with lists that appeared to be constructed under the influence for the first 3 rds.
The era of outsmarting everyone is over, and we were never rich with eyes and insiders like Detroit regardless.
We've ramped up confidence in scouting so I believe that is going to be a peach for us.
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Sometimes the guy on a stacked team that does nothing for long periods of time is overlooked. When he is needed, he has to make the saves. Very much like having a backup that is cold for 58 minutes of a game, then replaces the starter. He has to make those saves. Or he sits on the bench for 10 games in a row. When he starts, he has to perform.
Not sure who you're describing, Parsons wasn't Niemi on the Hawks.
London's press-clippings were good and well, but Parsons was hung out to dry, a lot.
We drafted the top 2 stars in the Memorial Cup Final.
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Yes it's going to be very interesting to not only get Bennett some solid wingers (Tkachuk & Brouwer anyone?) but also to see what GG brings and how his changes impact the guys we already think we've got figured out.
There is someone we're not talking about much in Tyler Parsons.
London was stacked and yada yada, but you can't tell me Parsons wasn't huge for them.
It will be interesting to see what we got, I hope.
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Thanks you cccsberg I appreicate that.
Interesting that they are number 1. I agree that they are right now but I wouldn't have thought a more mainstream media guy would name them there. Nice to see the Flames getting some credit.
I agree and I'm shocked. All of our great young guys are East, so I guess it's osmosis!
I'm really interested to see what Johnny's got next, hopefully draws a lot more slashing penalties lol.
But I don't know what the ceiling is frankly. Can't hit him, can't draw him in and contain him, he's got the best feet I swear I've seen including Dats and Kane. He has another gear seemingly always. Vision. Stick.
Some guys are scary good, like Ovi, Crosby and Kane. But once in awhile, someone is scary good AND different.
He isn't going to be "hiding" in the West, he'll be replacing Datsyuk as the human highlight reel.
So there's that, lol.
What I have loved about Monahan since inception, is it doesn't matter if it's camp, preseason or league, watch him step out onto the ice at the beginning. It is confidence personified. His head is up with intense dignity and for me, it's a wow moment. This kid came to play. Always, always.
Boring Sean Monahan, lol. Love it. Getzlaf, Backes, Toews, those are some boring top C's.
Bennett (over tkachuk but I know it wasn't prescribed)
The opposite of boring I think is annoying. Calgary's huge struggle has been hooking him up with NHL talent.
They have two top 6 polar opposite C's that should drive any team nuts.
But they've floated him due to a lack of talent on the wings.
If they put him through the meat grinder again, they'll save dollars when the ELC runs out after this year.
Hard way to look at it, but yeah.
I don't doubt he'll score 30 in this league, standing on his head. Nothing more annoying than the guy that annoyed you just scored!
Goaltending
in Flames Talk
Posted
I disagree. You don't make it this far by having a ton of positional issues. You can hone reflex, etc. But if you got this far and coaching ruined you, all I can think is, "Really"?
That's my defense of Sigalet and my hairy eyeball on management.
A goalie coach isn't overcoming what he has to work with.