conundrumed
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Posts posted by conundrumed
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Except I would say its hard to argue that he wasent given alot to work with, the team got alot better on paper in the 4 years he was behind the bench, but the team didnt get any better numbers wise. The only thing that happened was he got a cinderella run to the playoffs out of this team in year 3, but the underlying numbers were always there and they were complete garbage.
Could he have had better pieces? sure he could have, but I think the arguement that toronto had better possession numbers with an AHL roster holds true no matter how you look at it.
But it's true. The roster is not very good. There are some nice pieces, sure. But it isn't a roster that gets you to the playoffs.
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Right...so you either have to pay them a raise that even their current team won't give them.. Or you get then for close to the same price cuz their old team doesn't want them.
Ya gotta think this thru. Lol
How do you think Raymond got such a rich deal.. U really think that was our opening offer?? No we outbid other teams trying to sign him too.
Actually pretty much yeah.
How we got Raymond at such a great price, I don't know, talk to BT lol. Have a luv in lol.
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Except we are a rebuilding team. Veterans usually want a good deal with term / dollar or a chance at the cup. Would you be happy if we signed some of those guys to three year deals with a bunch of cap? I wouldn't.
What? Those guys are just happy to keep playing lol. They're not exactly holding the cards lol.
"A bunch of cap", lol. 3 yrs?
Man you trippin', it's the bottom of the UFA list under 2.2 mil rofl
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Look i get it was an unpopular decision , Im even on record in these threads as saying i thought he deserved a do over.. but the reality is , if youre a coach in the NHL, theres a 99.9% guarantee you will get fired one day.
BT's test is now.. hes convinced we need a certain style to win in this league.. his job is to provide the players who play that style, and to put a coach in place to utilize it. If he's wrong, he'll be fired one day too.
He was obviously convinced it wasn't sustainable based on the 2 year deal he gave Bob.. he was getting results, it was classy they kept him in the first place cuz usually the coach goes first , that and obviously he was getting results.
His results went backwards.. theres no denying BH didnt coach the team the same way this year as he did the years before.. the list has been hashed to death on here.. we can say bad goalies, but Bobs system needs an elite goalie.. we can say players had off years, but last year Bob benched people having bad years, this year he stuck with them while new blood rotted..
I liked bob , and everything he did for us.. but its true, he did this to himself as much as it was done to him..and i believe that a possible do over, had possible bad ramifications.. let him lose an entire season, or bring in a new coach part way with no training camp to waste it anyway .. hes right , if he truly believed, it had to be done now
Consensus is over-rated boss, hence, discussion and disagreement.
Turns out, everything you thought was right is wrong lol.
I hate when that happens!
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And how are we gettign these players?
Against BT, as much as you said he did some good things, it seems like you think he should have grabbed different players some how, and im not following the how.
They are UFA.
He's now telling us how we want to be harder to play against, he's done next to zero in that regard for 2 years.
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he rightfully owned up to what / who our 3 goalies were " Our goalies weren't good enough.. that's on me".. but he also pointed out "The play in front off the goaltenders was also very poor".. thats on Bob he stated that was part of what led to his dismissal
How about, "He's taken this team as far as I think he can".
So much for being a "classy" org.
Let's see how far BT can take it.
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A little biased are we?
Not sure how I'm biased. For/Against who?
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If it was easy to sign key veterans to short term deals on rebuilding teams then there wouldn't be any teams in rebuilds. Who are these vets you speak of?
Trading assets or committing to more bad contracts is the wrong thing to do. There isn't a short term fix.
It's looking like, for Bouma money or less per:
M. Richards
Travis Moen
Vernon Fiddler
Jason Chimera
Jarrett Stoll
Trevor Lewis
*perhaps* Alex Tanguay
Scott Upshall
Not one of these is over 2 yrs, yet most of them provide a "black and blue" haha, j/k.
But they provide a backbone for our young guys, so to speak.
None of these guys will lead your team in scoring, but they've played a lot of NHL.
They're the type of players, mainly, that keep you honest, good or bad, been there done that.
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"A bunch of resources" are low risk, low contract experienced NHLers to help the young guys along and to buy time from everyone judging our prospect development.
You're confusing it with trading off the future for vets.
You can sign a vet quite easily at ufa and lose nothing for the rebuild. There's great cheap ones that don't show up on the score sheet but sure make you a hard team.
The young guys need more than 2 or 3 of those around them imho.
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Alright, run with that thinking, I'll wait to see what he improves this offseason.
We'll see what he does, but while you write everything off to something else, I have huge question marks.
No harm, no foul.
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Your one of the few people I have heard anywhere this critical of Treliving. You want to stand on an island then feel free. But maybe tone the condensation down a bit if that's your plan.
I don't like some of the depth contracts he has signed. I don't like how he addressed the goaltending last season. I have been consistent saying that.
But he has done much more good then bad. He has considerably added to the talent pool in his short time here and given up very little to do it. His drafts look solid. He has signed our best players to value contracts.
You seem hung up on the fact we weren't great last season and you seem to think Hartley is taking the fall for it. The reality is a rebuild doesn't happen overnight and Hartley was let go for many reasons that go beyond last seasons results.
You also seem hung up on the "black and blue" comments. I think you (and others) are making way to much out of that. The Flames want to get bigger and they want to be tougher to play against. That isn't exactly a revelation and it certainly isn't something to get upset about. It isn't like Treliving has went out and sacrificed talent for a goon squad. Despite his reputation Burke never did that either. He was as big on skill players as anyone. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to pad them with some size throughout the line up though.
You keep telling me what I'm hung up on, then tell me to tone it down? For what? How's the kool-aid?
C'mon kehatch, I'm being critical of BT is all, call it an island if you like, but someone has to be.
Do I mind the BH firing? Not much.
Do I like BT's comments on it? Not really.
Did I expect a great team last year? No.
Now in all of this, I know BT inherited players. He added Hamilton and Frolik, The Russell deal was good. I'm good with that.
He gave BH the 3 headed G monster no coach would ever want. He started the tenure filling holes that he only perceived, and he perceived wrong.
There's 2 main things imho that hurts everything in the lineup including PP and PK. We all know about goaltending, which he's spent 2 yrs doing zero to address. Now we are completely desperate.
The other is faceoffs. Want a better PP, PK? Win a faceoff, it's not a big secret. Where's the $1m Vernon Fiddler's? They're out there. So while you scour around other leagues hoping for Nakladl's Morrisson's and Pribyl's, shed salaries and feel free to not neglect cheap 10 yr vets that have been regulars in this league and easily give you 8-12 minutes a night in any role.
Want to be hard to play against? Where's your cheap Upshall's and Moen's? Brandon Bollig is all you did, worst of the bunch.
It feels like Feaster to me, making it complicated.
At least we're in the least penalized in the league, because we're soft.
I'm not hung up on "black and blue", I'm offended by it. The answer is Bollig and Engelland?
That's 2 yrs ago, he's done zero to add that definition since.
Someone has to be critical, blast away.
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If you think I drink the koolaid then clearly you aren't familiar with my posts. But the reality is the Flames are rebuilding and getting bent out of shape over a poor season is silly.
Oh please. Was the poor season unexpected? You are definitely taking the wrong road.
Who is responsible for goalie contracts? Who signed Raymond and Engelland at 3 per?
Who signed Bouma for $2.2? Backlund at $3.5?
We want to be a black and blue team now?
Maybe don't take 2 yrs to let us know that, because we wouldn't know that direction so far...
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Treliving inherited a team in a rebuild. I think your expectations are way out of alignment if you think a lack of success is Treliving fault.
The Flames have explained why they terminated Hartley and it wasn't because of standings results. Your way to hung up on the standings. If the coach isn't a fit he isn't a fit.
Well at least I know what I'm hung up on now. I thought it was the roster.
How's the kool-aid, is it Black and Blue?
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A couple of points...
The team is really only down Hudler from last season. He will be replaced. Jones was nothing special. Russell for Jokipakka is not that much of a loss. He wasn't able to handle bigger guys in the D-zone. We will be down 2 or 3 goalies, but they all had forgettable seasons. Whoever we get for a starter will be infinitely better than the goalie circus we had.
Ortio was one of those kids that was supposed to be allowed to make mistakes. Well that didn't happen. What about Bennett? Didn't exactly get much PP time did he?
Specialty teams. Interesting that you think it was 100% on the players. No responsibility on the coaches? What systems did they rely on? Dump and chase to regain possession. Or give it to Johnny. Teams adjust to that. How about D-zone coverage?
I wouldn't use Bouma and Russell's bruises as proof that BT had the room. Bouma plays that way because that is what he knows and how he has to, to be in the league.
How many years did you want to wait? Hartley had 3 years with one year not in the bottom 5.
I'm with cheers, this year was a testament to how "good" this team actually is.
Not very.
Goal was Treliving's fault and still is. The rest of the roster is too.
"he took the team as far as he could. He took YOUR team as far as god almighty could.
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On the way home from work I was listening to NHL Radio and they were talking to Jonathan Davis who covers all the California teams, and they were talking about the Duck in particular.
They asked him if he thought the Ducks would move Andersen, and Davis figured that they would keep Andersen as he solidified himself as the starter, and they would look to package Gibson and either Fowler or Vatanen to get some more scoring and in particular a top end LW.
Now if Anaheim made Gibson available, Calgary should throw everything they have at Anaheim to try and land him. I really believe this kid has Carey Price level upside.
I would do everything I could to not give up Gaudreau or Monahan, but to be honest I would consider Bennett or even our 1st (depending on the results of the lottery).
Gibson answers a lot of questions for this team now and in the future.
Unfortunately he isn't the mgr, and Bennett alone does not get you Gibson AND Vatenen/Fowler.
That's a tall order that would get a ton of interest = overpayment.
Media discussing random thoughts...
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What about Dallas having 2 starters, and needing to shed salary for D and a 4th line?
They have not much in D prospects.
How about revisiting the pick they sent us and one player/prospect back for Niemi?
In essence, Russell rental/1st dibs to sign for Niemi and Brett Pollock??
Niemi's $4.5 per, which is pretty much where we want to be for a goalie for now.
Dumb idea?
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The more I'm thinking about these things it seems to me that each team has(or gets) a very few key players(or a coach) around which the team develops (usually) a unique personality based on those few players/coach. For Calgary its a quick counterattack, kamikaze attack style of play that incorporates their forwards but also all their D. Its fast, its high pressure and it feeds off the rush and catching the other team off-balance and out of place, and getting better than average scoring chances. This is probably mostly a BH playing style, supported by BT, that uniquely fits our best players, Gaudreau, Giordano and Brodie to a "T".
Every team employs sending a defenceman trailing on the rush or pressure nowadays. Our forward depth can't do it much, but we do it regardless.
I'm more interested in how we fix that.
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Sorry for the long post. I appreciate any who bother reading it.
We go around and around in circles when we discuss defence and goaltending here. Part of the problem is that the NHL simply does not collect appropriate data to make intelligent assessments of play. NHL statistics are largely an heuristic device for the media to generate fan interest. Goaltending save percentage is not a valid statistic since a goalie can stand on his head, but if the defence is allowing a shooting gallery, it misrepresents what is happening in reality. As well, a goalie can play poorly, but if the defence is excellent, he is going to look unbeatable. Shot blocking can indicate great heart or poor defensive play. Puck possession is usually a good indicator of play, but the LA Kings were the best at that this year and look how they performed. They had the puck and were unable to translate that possession into offence. We can make similar arguments about other statistics including the Corsi that is based on already insufficient, invalid data. Anyone who uses Microsoft programs knows that placing crap upon crap results in mega-crap. As Quenville said before the last game, he makes decisions on the basis of his gut. I am not anti-statistic, I am saying that there is insufficient data to produce valid statistics. You just cannot Moneyball hockey at the moment.
The Flames suffered from Oilerthink this year when it comes to defence (and goaltending). On paper, we are excellent. Dougie has massive potential, Gio is great all around, and Brodie is simply amazing. But this does not mean that they are necessarily playing well in relation to other aspects of the game. All year, the front of our net has been a safe haven for other teams. I half expected that a family of Syrian refugees would set up camp in front of our net because nobody would ever remove them. It has made life very difficult for all of our goalies. So many times, we just dump the puck around the boards due to a lack of hustle, hope for the best, the puck goes to their point man, and they score. It was rinse, repeat playing Anaheim. Like the Oiler’s offence, we have great players who have not played great defence.
Compare that to the Hawks. They usually get to the puck first (is there a statistic for that?). If not, they bang away until they strip it from the other team (is there a statistic for that?). And then, they usually have several passing options when transitioning (any stats here?). That is almost rare for the Flames. We wait for the other team to give us the puck after they get a scoring opportunity. We hope our goalie stops the puck and it bounces to us before the other team gets it. If not, we start shot blocking.
Hartley does have some explaining to do in this regard, and I kind of like the guy overall. Is he aware of these problems, but the players are not responding? Are they unable to respond how he wishes? Or, is Hartley too focused on offensive play? Does anyone dispute that one of the best hits by one of our defencemen was when Wideman put the zebra in the hospital? Sometimes I wish Reggie was our defensive coach.
I don't think so.
What is the comparison to the Hawks? They have Toews-Hossa; Kane-Anamisov-Panarin, a bunch of others in the bag, even Teuravainen and Ladd as extras.
Are we near simply that? No, we aren't.
Why compare?
The Flames aren't the Hawks, and it ain't the difference between Quenneville and Hartley...
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A big part of D is goaltending. Any dman will feed off the goalie. If the goalie is a total menace to everyone around him, even your 5 dman is going to play like a #2, it's just the psychology.
We just didn't have it this year. No one won the #1, imho that's a big deal.
It's not so much on the G, but on the coaching to say, "this is the guy, get used to it".
A revolving door got us exactly what we deserved this year, no consistency.
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Niemi? Dallas also has Jack Campbell. Niemi's looking redundant to me.
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I suggested him a while back and got shot down some saying he wasn't even an NHLer. Still his numbers are impressive this season and I still think he could give us a couple of good seasons. He is what 4th on the LA Depth chart?
But that's because no on likes you.
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As Price's backup in MTL, I thought he was great.
That seems to be the breaking point for him where he couldn't get out from under.
Perhaps. I wonder that.
As I said, not a solution, but buying time.
At 33, look at his year with Ontario.
What I get to thinking that could also mean, is Peter Budaj decided "screw this".
So I wonder, is that not what we're looking for?
UFA isn't great, the position is open. He is 33. I get all that.
Goalies are about what is in their head.
I'd be more inclined to Budaj wanting a job than say, Ramo trying to keep one, if you know what I mean.
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It seems like Peter Budaj is too good to be in the A. Just saying.
Is he the answer? Pretty much of course not. But can he help us gap a season to a better ufa list next year and opening cap space?
Before you hack it to bits, it's a thought, not a solution. A cheap alternative.
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Is it just me, or is this the worst possible timing on needing a goalie(s)?
The UFA list is pretty dusty.
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Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation
in Flames Talk
Posted
That's little consolation. Yet, why do you think that? Winnipeg and Columbus look a lot better to me, the Oilers look close. Arizona has a ton of young depth. How are we in better shape?
Not to mention, those teams have goalies. I love how we treat that as, yeah but...
Yeah but what? It's a huge issue. Huge.