In with the new.

[phoenix66]

3 hours ago, 420since1974 said:

 

The fewest points that the Flames have ever had since moving to Calgary was in the 1997/1998 season - 26-41-15 = 67 points.

If I recall correctly, that was only two years after the NHL instituted the Canadian Assistance Program to "help" small market Canadian teams stay afloat.

By then, the Flames had lost nearly all of their star players.

Fleury (78) and Stillman (49) were the top dogs points wise.

Tabaracci - 0.893, 971 SVs was the top goalie.

I was not at all entertained that season.

 

Barring multiple major injuries, I just can't see the 2024/2025 Flames finishing that poorly.

I do see some entertaining players likely on the team for this upcoming season.

If they are going to finish in the bottom 10, I'd rather watch them lose 6-5 instead of 2-1.

Yep..  I remember that season.. brutal.

And 5 teams were still worse than us ..then  we got rewarded in the draft with Rico Fata.. 😭

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, 420since1974 said:

 

The fewest points that the Flames have ever had since moving to Calgary was in the 1997/1998 season - 26-41-15 = 67 points.

If I recall correctly, that was only two years after the NHL instituted the Canadian Assistance Program to "help" small market Canadian teams stay afloat.

By then, the Flames had lost nearly all of their star players.

Fleury (78) and Stillman (49) were the top dogs points wise.

Tabaracci - 0.893, 971 SVs was the top goalie.

I was not at all entertained that season.

 

Barring multiple major injuries, I just can't see the 2024/2025 Flames finishing that poorly.

I do see some entertaining players likely on the team for this upcoming season.

If they are going to finish in the bottom 10, I'd rather watch them lose 6-5 instead of 2-1.

I can see the team competing at a pace where they will be drafting between 7-12

[The_People1]

12 hours ago, sak22 said:

 

I don’t have a preference of 51 or 71, my preference is always winning.

 

Maybe it's just semantics or whatever but if your preference is winning then isn't your preference a 71-point season over a 51-point season?  So therefore, you have a preference?

 

Because for me, both those results miss the playoffs so I'd rather the 51-point season to get the higher pick.  I could care less about entertainment value.  The results matter.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Maybe it's just semantics or whatever but if your preference is winning then isn't your preference a 71-point season over a 51-point season?  So therefore, you have a preference?

 

Because for me, both those results miss the playoffs so I'd rather the 51-point season to get the higher pick.

 

I think some who have a preference for winning align more with the preference of competing. I think if the team tries many will be satisfied plus I think they hover around a .500 record again.

[The_People1]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think some who have a preference for winning align more with the preference of competing. I think if the team tries many will be satisfied plus I think they hover around a .500 record again.

 

Like, just want the players to play hard?  Or have a competitive roster with skills?  Or both?

 

Because, CHI and SJS played hard.  It's just difficult to win at the NHL level when half the roster is AHL talent.  No matter how hard the players tried, the results are the results.  The AHL players lose 1-on-1 battles everywhere on the ice.

 

Is it okay if the Flames put a roster together for next season like CHI and SJS did last year and played hard to a 51-point season?

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Like, just want the players to play hard?  Or have a competitive roster with skills?  Or both?

 

Because, CHI and SJS played hard.  It's just difficult to win at the NHL level when half the roster is AHL talent.  No matter how hard the players tried, the results are the results.  The AHL players lose 1-on-1 battles everywhere on the ice.

 

Is it okay if the Flames put a roster together for next season like CHI and SJS did last year and played hard to a 51-point season?

I view it differently.  If the end objective is to build through the draft then those drafted should have an impact. Any insertion should not have a downward trend. If that happens then IMHO your drafting is in desire need of new personnel.  There is a learning curve but today's athlete is far superior and advanced than years previous. 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Like, just want the players to play hard?  Or have a competitive roster with skills?  Or both?

 

Because, CHI and SJS played hard.  It's just difficult to win at the NHL level when half the roster is AHL talent.  No matter how hard the players tried, the results are the results.  The AHL players lose 1-on-1 battles everywhere on the ice.

 

Is it okay if the Flames put a roster together for next season like CHI and SJS did last year and played hard to a 51-point season?

 

I think so ya. I mean, what is the roster now?

 

we minus Tanev and Markstrom. It will make a difference, but at the same time, we have a roster at the top side that is probably a 0.500 roster, maybe 0.450-0.500. Where does that slot us? 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

I view it differently.  If the end objective is to build through the draft then those drafted should have an impact. Any insertion should not have a downward trend. If that happens then IMHO your drafting is in desire need of new personnel.  There is a learning curve but today's athlete is far superior and advanced than years previous. 

 

It's about timing more than anything else.  Ideally, the core is under-30 and nobody is dragging the team down.  But in order to have the core all relatively the same age, they need to all be drafted roughly within a 3-5 year window... then factor in different development curves for different players, etc... you want every to hit their peaks around the same time.

[The_People1]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

I think so ya. I mean, what is the roster now?

 

we minus Tanev and Markstrom. It will make a difference, but at the same time, we have a roster at the top side that is probably a 0.500 roster, maybe 0.450-0.500. Where does that slot us? 

 

Well I guess my entire point was, it's not entertaining to miss the playoffs regardless.  And we are going to miss the playoffs again next year, by all metrics of reality. 

 

So whether we are eliminated by February or March... Like, might as well be eliminated in February but get a higher pick.  Then we have higher hopes for years to come.

[tmac70]

20 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

It's about timing more than anything else.  Ideally, the core is under-30 and nobody is dragging the team down.  But in order to have the core all relatively the same age, they need to all be drafted roughly within a 3-5 year window... then factor in different development curves for different players, etc... you want every to hit their peaks around the same time.

 You just validated that timing, accurate projections, no major injuries, construction, coaching, team chemistry, good drafting, and development all have to come in alignment for any of this to work.  There are so many ways to get a competitive team, FLA just won because it traded well and signed some good low-cash UFAs. Barkov is a stud, but the Coilers have 2 of the proposed best players in the game and have won Satoshi Nakamoto.

 

You still need vets and guys that know what it takes to win. ZIto saw a key element that was missing on that roster, Chucky. He also must have realized that Weegar and Hubie are good in season guys but will never carry you to the end. With them out and Chucky in they have been to the finals and won. 

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well I guess my entire point was, it's not entertaining to miss the playoffs regardless.  And we are going to miss the playoffs again next year, by all metrics of reality. 

 

So whether we are eliminated by February or March... Like, might as well be eliminated in February but get a higher pick.  Then we have higher hopes for years to come.

Have to keep in mind these drafted kids are minimum 2 years away .realistically 3 or more for most of them .

Filling a spot with a kid from the A that just isn't ready yet does them more harm than  good . So, you sign older players to play in those spots ..raise your compete level ..increase your playoff odds too. 

The later they are fighting in the season just teaches them what it takes ..drives them harder .. 

 

[tmac70]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Have to keep in mind these drafted kids are minimum 2 years away .realistically 3 or more for most of them .

Filling a spot with a kid from the A that just isn't ready yet does them more harm than  good . So, you sign older players to play in those spots ..raise your compete level ..increase your playoff odds too. 

The later they are fighting in the season just teaches them what it takes ..drives them harder .. 

 

Our trajectory will be defined by how well the players adapt. This year the progression to the big league we should see Wolf, Corronato, Strogren, Pelttier, Solo, Kuznetsov, Schwindt, and Mortin. The AHL you need to see Honzek, Porier, Bell, Lipinski, Ciona, Brzustewicz, Morin, Jurmo, and Grus step up. Then you need to see dramatic improvements with Zayne, Misa, Basha, Mews, and Griden out of the prospect pool. 

 

I don't belive we get inside the top 5 for a draft pick in the next 2 drafts. So for us to get top 3-4 forwards it will have to come via trade or FA

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Our trajectory will be defined by how well the players adapt. This year the progression to the big league we should see Wolf, Corronato, Strogren, Pelttier, Solo, Kuznetsov, Schwindt, and Mortin. The AHL you need to see Honzek, Porier, Bell, Lipinski, Ciona, Brzustewicz, Morin, Jurmo, and Grus step up. Then you need to see dramatic improvements with Zayne, Misa, Basha, Mews, and Griden out of the prospect pool. 

 

I don't belive we get inside the top 5 for a draft pick in the next 2 drafts. So for us to get top 3-4 forwards it will have to come via trade or FA

it could be back to murky middle of the pack in the future, or we draft all top 6 players but they have to be top9 as there won't be room for 9 top6 players. 
 

it would have to be by committee, and I'd be ok with that. But it's my romantic version of what the team will have to do and some how find a version of Rantanen, or Point, or Pastranak. Maybe we can lure a Panar2n. 
 

Maybe we draft a Tkachuk. 
 

the big hope is Parekh can be a decent top pair, and if Brz can play second pair with similar kind of play, that can be big... 

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

it could be back to murky middle of the pack in the future, or we draft all top 6 players but they have to be top9 as there won't be room for 9 top6 players. 
 

it would have to be by committee, and I'd be ok with that. But it's my romantic version of what the team will have to do and some how find a version of Rantanen, or Point, or Pastranak. Maybe we can lure a Panar2n. 
 

Maybe we draft a Tkachuk. 
 

the big hope is Parekh can be a decent top pair, and if Brz can play second pair with similar kind of play, that can be big... 

 

COL and Tampa are the only teams that won the cup over the last 7 years that had an elite scorer on the team.

TBL used the loopholes in exploting the LTIR rules, well legally that is.

Most of the teams had scoring by committee.  

When your team struggles to score by any method including PP, you are in the middle at best.

EDM will soon have $30M spent on 2 players.

Does having two $14M (soon) okayers get you anything?

 

My only point is that we will win the cup with a combo of drafted players, trades and signed players.

No different than any team that has won.  We may find another Gaudreau.

We may have the next Kipper.  Or McInnis.

 

[phoenix66]

9 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Our trajectory will be defined by how well the players adapt. This year the progression to the big league we should see Wolf, Corronato, Strogren, Pelttier, Solo, Kuznetsov, Schwindt, and Mortin. The AHL you need to see Honzek, Porier, Bell, Lipinski, Ciona, Brzustewicz, Morin, Jurmo, and Grus step up. Then you need to see dramatic improvements with Zayne, Misa, Basha, Mews, and Griden out of the prospect pool. 

 

I don't belive we get inside the top 5 for a draft pick in the next 2 drafts. So for us to get top 3-4 forwards it will have to come via trade or FA

Yep I'd say this year is key most notably for schwindt and Pelletier ..

Both are what they are in the A , they have to take that step. I have high hop for Pelletier.. injuries held him back last year .

Schwindt hadn't really impressed in his callups ..

Coronato to me has nothing left to prove in the A, he needs to take that step as well .. the others you can definitely argue have some runway available 

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

COL and Tampa are the only teams that won the cup over the last 7 years that had an elite scorer on the team.

TBL used the loopholes in exploting the LTIR rules, well legally that is.

Most of the teams had scoring by committee.  

When your team struggles to score by any method including PP, you are in the middle at best.

EDM will soon have $30M spent on 2 players.

Does having two $14M (soon) okayers get you anything?

 

My only point is that we will win the cup with a combo of drafted players, trades and signed players.

No different than any team that has won.  We may find another Gaudreau.

We may have the next Kipper.  Or McInnis.

 

Yep , It will happen and I'll concede the cap being static for so long contributed to it ..but there's still a reason why now only 2 $10m players have hoisted the cup.. not one over $10m so far ..  when one or 2 players are using that much you inevitably have to suffer in another key area ..  or catch a break with some hometown discounts ..

That will be where your kids need to contribute before they inevitably get paid themselves..

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Yep I'd say this year is key most notably for schwindt and Pelletier ..

Both are what they are in the A , they have to take that step. I have high hop for Pelletier.. injuries held him back last year .

Schwindt hadn't really impressed in his callups ..

Coronato to me has nothing left to prove in the A, he needs to take that step as well .. the others you can definitely argue have some runway available 

Can't count out Kerins either. He's been delayed by both Covid and injury. A couple of seasons staying healthy in the A should really help him progress.

I'm pretty intrigued to watch Misa develop. When you're young and skate like the wind, it's easy to be an O-dynamo until you hit Jr. Then you have to develop other areas. I think he came a good ways last year becoming a more complete player, so that will continue. The speed and handles were always noticeable, but now he's much better defensively and picking his spots, though he's kind of a bat out of hell out there most shifts, which can lead to mistakes. Maturity should help with that.

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Can't count out Kerins either. He's been delayed by both Covid and injury. A couple of seasons staying healthy in the A should really help him progress.

I'm pretty intrigued to watch Misa develop. When you're young and skate like the wind, it's easy to be an O-dynamo until you hit Jr. Then you have to develop other areas. I think he came a good ways last year becoming a more complete player, so that will continue. The speed and handles were always noticeable, but now he's much better defensively and picking his spots, though he's kind of a bat out of hell out there most shifts, which can lead to mistakes. Maturity should help with that.

Oh 💯.. don't misunderstand I'm not counting the others out..I'm saying they have runway and development to come .. the ones I mentioned (Schwindt, Pelletier, Coronato) to me it's NHL or bust this year.. If they don't become NHL regulars you have to start quesioning if they have a future here . 

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Oh 💯.. don't misunderstand I'm not counting the others out..I'm saying they have runway and development to come .. the ones I mentioned (Schwindt, Pelletier, Coronato) to me it's NHL or bust this year.. If they don't become NHL regulars you have to start quesioning if they have a future here . 

All I have to say is, please hockey gods, leave us alone.lol

Not another preseason like last year, where we lose Pelletier, Honzek and Poirier long term. We just can't afford it. We need these guys developing, not having surgeries.

For a positive spin, Suniev is looking like a real solid prospect also.

*Away negatives, leave us alone already*

[phoenix66]

Just now, conundrumed said:

All I have to say is, please hockey gods, leave us alone.lol

Not another preseason like last year, where we lose Pelletier, Honzek and Poirier long term. We just can't afford it. We need these guys developing, not having surgeries.

For a positive spin, Suniev is looking like a real solid prospect also.

*Away negatives, leave us alone already*

Yep I think we'll have a few graduates that will turn a head or 2..

I will say I have high hopes for Coronato and Pelletier..

Mange gone opens up the perfect landing spot for Coronato beside Backs and Coleman.

I had high hopes for Pelletier last year knowing hed spent his summer training with Huberdeau..and hes done it again (with Mantha too) ..

Schwindt is a 50-50 to me .. he has to come in and grab a spot ..no reason he can't grab that 4th line center spot but it's up to him to do it .. 

 

 

I watched wrangler games down the stretch 2 seasons ago and will admit Zary looked like he was not NHL ready and he made a huge jump last season.. someone will do it this year too 

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, phoenix66 said:

I watched wrangler games down the stretch 2 seasons ago and will admit Zary looked like he was not NHL ready and he made a huge jump last season.. someone will do it this year too 

I've always said, offseasons can be huge difference-makers with 18-23yos. Changing up workouts, focusing on weaknesses. They get solid pro advice. Gene-stuff, some just fill their bodies out a little later than others. So many reasons.

I mean, how often do you hear, even bonafide pros, saying, "I changed my offseason regiment this year" as a reason for their success?

2 months of specific training, even just dryland, can change everything in muscle dynamics.

As an aside, just draft guys that have legs that look stronger than tree-trunks, then figure out the rest later. lol

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Can't count out Kerins either. He's been delayed by both Covid and injury. A couple of seasons staying healthy in the A should really help him progress.

I'm pretty intrigued to watch Misa develop. When you're young and skate like the wind, it's easy to be an O-dynamo until you hit Jr. Then you have to develop other areas. I think he came a good ways last year becoming a more complete player, so that will continue. The speed and handles were always noticeable, but now he's much better defensively and picking his spots, though he's kind of a bat out of hell out there most shifts, which can lead to mistakes. Maturity should help with that.

Keirns has been hot and cold in the A, his size is the biggest knock. MIsa for me at development camp was the biggest smile maker. Talk all you want about Zayne and Bru, but Misa stood out. We lack playmakers and guys with skill that can push the D back with skill and speed.  Will be nice to see him at camp how he does with larger faster stronger players, but he could be a similar version of JG. Large boots to fill but from early take kid could be one of the ones that brings you out of your seat.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Yep I think we'll have a few graduates that will turn a head or 2..

I will say I have high hopes for Coronato and Pelletier..

Mange gone opens up the perfect landing spot for Coronato beside Backs and Coleman.

I had high hopes for Pelletier last year knowing hed spent his summer training with Huberdeau..and hes done it again (with Mantha too) ..

Schwindt is a 50-50 to me .. he has to come in and grab a spot ..no reason he can't grab that 4th line center spot but it's up to him to do it .. 

 

 

I watched wrangler games down the stretch 2 seasons ago and will admit Zary looked like he was not NHL ready and he made a huge jump last season.. someone will do it this year too 

Schwindt was good in the A but not great. What I think everyone loves about him is his size, he skates well but always leaves you wanting more. IMHO he was surpassed on the Wranglers by Morton, this kid was great in all areas and made an impact from when he first arrived till the end. Even in camp, he stood out. GUY like Petls and Schwindt have been passed over right by either bad luck or poor progression. Morton to me is a solid 4th line guy at center or wing, skill speed and very good in the circle. If he doesn't get a look its because Huska has his pet Rooney penciled in 

[tmac70]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

it could be back to murky middle of the pack in the future, or we draft all top 6 players but they have to be top9 as there won't be room for 9 top6 players. 
 

it would have to be by committee, and I'd be ok with that. But it's my romantic version of what the team will have to do and some how find a version of Rantanen, or Point, or Pastranak. Maybe we can lure a Panar2n. 
 

Maybe we draft a Tkachuk. 
 

the big hope is Parekh can be a decent top pair, and if Brz can play second pair with similar kind of play, that can be big... 

I just view this as if you're drafting well then your prospects should have impacts similar to Zary and Pospisl last year. Also, history doesn't bode well for us either. Have we ever drafted a #1 center or a franchise D that we kept? Backs is the longest-tenured guy who says volumes. We picked 4th, 6th, and 6th in the last decade all play for other teams now. For us to move into a contender your prospect hit will have to be 2-3 a year for the next 3-4 years or its just rinse and repeat. Winning brings you better options. Look at what's happening up north, a place where no one ever wanted to now guys are discounting themselves because the odds are good they will contend for a cup. I get the warm fuzzy destination but guys with a vision to win a title, will want to come to your organization short term if they can see there is a chance.

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Schwindt was good in the A but not great. What I think everyone loves about him is his size, he skates well but always leaves you wanting more. IMHO he was surpassed on the Wranglers by Morton, this kid was great in all areas and made an impact from when he first arrived till the end. Even in camp, he stood out. GUY like Petls and Schwindt have been passed over right by either bad luck or poor progression. Morton to me is a solid 4th line guy at center or wing, skill speed and very good in the circle. If he doesn't get a look its because Huska has his pet Rooney penciled in 

Morton looked really fun at dev camp. Just looks really smart in his skating paths to be disruptive. I've never held out a ton of hope for Schwindt, but I also love to be wrong.