In with the new.

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, tmac70 said:

So if this club is going to be as bad as everyone projects, and Pelletier can't make this roster is he that big of loss

It's hard to imagine that Pelletier came in and impressed Sutter enough early (even though benched later), but now can't make this roster. Unless that injury seriously affected his abilities, he's always been highly motivated.

For me, he should be able to mimic a Zary-like impact. He's never been behind Zary as a prospect, so it's up to him to make it translate to the NHL.

[sak22]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It's hard to imagine that Pelletier came in and impressed Sutter enough early (even though benched later), but now can't make this roster. Unless that injury seriously affected his abilities, he's always been highly motivated.

For me, he should be able to mimic a Zary-like impact. He's never been behind Zary as a prospect, so it's up to him to make it translate to the NHL.

Worth noting Zary's first pro year he got hurt in camp and many here grew nervous about his development due to production, I know it is still a difference between year 1 of pro hockey and year 3, but training camp injuries are always the worst for young players, with Pelts I think they should've kept him down longer once he got back but I think we'll see a better player this year.

[robrob74]

On 7/23/2024 at 5:11 AM, conundrumed said:

It's hard to imagine that Pelletier came in and impressed Sutter enough early (even though benched later), but now can't make this roster. Unless that injury seriously affected his abilities, he's always been highly motivated.

For me, he should be able to mimic a Zary-like impact. He's never been behind Zary as a prospect, so it's up to him to make it translate to the NHL.

Zary is a year younger? It would be natural for Pelletier to be the better prospect for awhile and Zary surpass him eventually. I didnt know which prospects were going to be better. I've been very skeptics of Flames drafting. I guess you can call it sports fan PTSD. 
 

I still think we have drafted mediumly. But maybe that is due to having less picks and doing well with ones we have. To be real, we drafted Kulak and he nearly won a Cup last year. He was a depth casualty. We drafted Andersson who can be a great 3 or a quality 2.... Kylington, maybe his development was derailed by personal mental health. But can be an ok 4 and a great 5... every team needs those too. I guess it is the LW thing, small or medium sized LW. 
 

Zary needs to transition to C. Would like to try Pospisil there too. Many don't think we can do that though. 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Zary is a year younger? It would be natural for Pelletier to be the better prospect for awhile and Zary surpass him eventually. I didnt know which prospects were going to be better. I've been very skeptics of Flames drafting. I guess you can call it sports fan PTSD. 
 

I still think we have drafted mediumly. But maybe that is due to having less picks and doing well with ones we have. To be real, we drafted Kulak and he nearly won a Cup last year. He was a depth casualty. We drafted Andersson who can be a great 3 or a quality 2.... Kylington, maybe his development was derailed by personal mental health. But can be an ok 4 and a great 5... every team needs those too. I guess it is the LW thing, small or medium sized LW. 
 

Zary needs to transition to C. Would like to try Pospisil there too. Many don't think we can do that though. 

They’re the same age. Zary has a late birthday so his draft year got pushed back.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

Zary is a year younger? It would be natural for Pelletier to be the better prospect for awhile and Zary surpass him eventually. I didnt know which prospects were going to be better. I've been very skeptics of Flames drafting. I guess you can call it sports fan PTSD. 
 

I still think we have drafted mediumly. But maybe that is due to having less picks and doing well with ones we have. To be real, we drafted Kulak and he nearly won a Cup last year. He was a depth casualty. We drafted Andersson who can be a great 3 or a quality 2.... Kylington, maybe his development was derailed by personal mental health. But can be an ok 4 and a great 5... every team needs those too. I guess it is the LW thing, small or medium sized LW. 
 

Zary needs to transition to C. Would like to try Pospisil there too. Many don't think we can do that though. 

 

To respond to the last line; Zary and Pospisil need to play the position that brings them the most success and helps the team the most.  I don't know what that is, but if they are not going to excel at C, then have them excel at wing. Both of them could be the answer, but we have to also consider that they may not be.  That points to the question of whether we draft true NHL C's high enough in the draft to be difference makers. 

 

It's a tough call for a coach.  Ideally they come in after a couple years in the AHL at C and the transition is just to the NHL differences.  Or they are a supreme talent that can't be delayed in the AHL.  

 

The prospecxt pool is what it is due to lack of picks, bad choices on guys that we let go, and only having so many contracts allowed.  A team with a ton of prospects faces that issue too.  We drafted well, but trade or let go guys that went on to other teams.  A poor GM, a POHO that wanted grit then a GM that felt we were closer to contender than not.  Yoor picks or prospects suffer as a result.  I think we are seeing that change.  We have to, because in 5 years we lose the Backlunds and Colemans and Kadris of the team.  

[robrob74]

52 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

To respond to the last line; Zary and Pospisil need to play the position that brings them the most success and helps the team the most.  I don't know what that is, but if they are not going to excel at C, then have them excel at wing. Both of them could be the answer, but we have to also consider that they may not be.  That points to the question of whether we draft true NHL C's high enough in the draft to be difference makers. 

 

It's a tough call for a coach.  Ideally they come in after a couple years in the AHL at C and the transition is just to the NHL differences.  Or they are a supreme talent that can't be delayed in the AHL.  

 

The prospecxt pool is what it is due to lack of picks, bad choices on guys that we let go, and only having so many contracts allowed.  A team with a ton of prospects faces that issue too.  We drafted well, but trade or let go guys that went on to other teams.  A poor GM, a POHO that wanted grit then a GM that felt we were closer to contender than not.  Yoor picks or prospects suffer as a result.  I think we are seeing that change.  We have to, because in 5 years we lose the Backlunds and Colemans and Kadris of the team.  

if you're looking to win now, it's wing, if you're looking to develop longer term success it is at center to get them caught up to the speed a center plays in the NHL. They already have an idea what it takes to play wing in the NHL, but now, if you're ok with them playing wing the rest of their career, play them at wing.
 

We have an opportunity to develop them as centers and not worry too much about loading up top lines. If you place players with talent it will help develop them in the position. You play them without talent and try them with no talented players, you see what happened to Bennett. I don't want that to happen where a player realizes every pass they make causes the play to die because no one on their lines can think at that level, therefore tries to do it themselves and that too makes them look horrible: play the players with players that can play. 
 

it is why I think they should spread the talent through the lineup and have each guy able to play with a vet who can play. PLAY! 
 

I realized at the end there that I said play a lot. Maybe they have one more year at wing before they get tried at center? Im not a coach or an expert in development, but I do think through experience watching them, I see a problem with giving youth actual chances with vets due to the idea they have to earn it, with a side not young players playing with Backlund. I think we can see more rookie success if we integrate them that way instead of playing them 4th line and making them "earn" a spot. 
 

Right now, we don't have line numbers, just build the roster by developing a rookie with a vet or two.

 

Huberdeau, Zary, Sharangovich

Pellitier, Kadri, Coranato

Coleman, Backs, Dumba

Lomberg, Pospisil, Kuzmenko

Zary pushes play, Sharangovich wants to play fast, Huberdeau needs to play fast. Not saying Huberdeau is fast just that he plays better with flow.

 

Kadri had fun helping develop, Coranato is a scorer, both Pelletier and Kadri are more set up guys, Pelletier is a 200' player.

 

i wasn't sure to put dumba with Pospisil or Backlund, trading Kuzmenko. Kuzmenko could be a fit with Coleman and Backlund as he's not defensive-minded, but I also think Pospisil will push pace. 
 

I know People and others think it's a bad idea, but they can roll the lines this way, and give guys looks on the PP for the extra ice, or reward lines with playing time. Maybe Kuzmenko stays with Kadri and Pelts... And Coronato with Pops? But I think it's the year to do something different and try different things. Change it back if they don't fit... 

 

i don't want to see the team sticking to something that works just because it works, without trying other things. 

 

Essay much! Yikes! Sorry everyone.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

To respond to the last line; Zary and Pospisil need to play the position that brings them the most success and helps the team the most.  I don't know what that is, but if they are not going to excel at C, then have them excel at wing. Both of them could be the answer, but we have to also consider that they may not be.  That points to the question of whether we draft true NHL C's high enough in the draft to be difference makers. 

 

It's a tough call for a coach.  Ideally they come in after a couple years in the AHL at C and the transition is just to the NHL differences.  Or they are a supreme talent that can't be delayed in the AHL.  

 

The prospecxt pool is what it is due to lack of picks, bad choices on guys that we let go, and only having so many contracts allowed.  A team with a ton of prospects faces that issue too.  We drafted well, but trade or let go guys that went on to other teams.  A poor GM, a POHO that wanted grit then a GM that felt we were closer to contender than not.  Yoor picks or prospects suffer as a result.  I think we are seeing that change.  We have to, because in 5 years we lose the Backlunds and Colemans and Kadris of the team.  

👍🏼

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i wasn't sure to put dumba with Pospisil or Backlund,

Minor hiccup. For clarity, I know you meant Mantha.

Imho, Zary and Pospisil are still developing a consistent NHL game. While I'd like to see one or both eventually become centers, year 2 is too fast for my liking. I'd just keep that line together. I get what you're saying about developing them as Cs, I just don't think we need to race into it. Time is definitely on our side, if nothing else is. lol

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Minor hiccup. For clarity, I know you meant Mantha.

Imho, Zary and Pospisil are still developing a consistent NHL game. While I'd like to see one or both eventually become centers, year 2 is too fast for my liking. I'd just keep that line together. I get what you're saying about developing them as Cs, I just don't think we need to race into it. Time is definitely on our side, if nothing else is. lol

yup! Meant Mantha...

 

its why I laughed. 
 

I get we have backs and Kadri now. Guess it's not such a big deal. Will need to draft a center in the next draft.

[travel_dude]

14 hours ago, robrob74 said:

yup! Meant Mantha...

 

its why I laughed. 
 

I get we have backs and Kadri now. Guess it's not such a big deal. Will need to draft a center in the next draft.

 

What I was saying in a round about way was that you either get gifted a natural C that can jump into the league as a difference maker (think 25 or 26 drafts), or you develop one from 2020 draft onwatds to jump in maybe in 25.  It's a tough grind for kids, so having Kadri and Backs there spot them in case they need a break.  By 26 we lose Backs.  

 

Forgive me if I mess up the contract ends, but I can't get used to not having Cap-my-friend.  I've tried others and just not simple for me.  Might have to search a couple of times to find out trades etc. PTO's.  Well that's the next thing after Young Stars in Sept.

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What I was saying in a round about way was that you either get gifted a natural C that can jump into the league as a difference maker (think 25 or 26 drafts), or you develop one from 2020 draft onwatds to jump in maybe in 25.  It's a tough grind for kids, so having Kadri and Backs there spot them in case they need a break.  By 26 we lose Backs.  

 

Forgive me if I mess up the contract ends, but I can't get used to not having Cap-my-friend.  I've tried others and just not simple for me.  Might have to search a couple of times to find out trades etc. PTO's.  Well that's the next thing after Young Stars in Sept.

any high chances? To me it looks like they may be yet to be drafted. We can pick some depth Center up in UFA when needed, maybe trade and excess D for one later. 

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

any high chances? To me it looks like they may be yet to be drafted. We can pick some depth Center up in UFA when needed, maybe trade and excess D for one later. 

 

The Eichel type sweeps don't come around often, so I doubt you get one in trade.  Players that could be a top C tend to be overlooked by their own team and buried, but usually don't make to UFA.  Monahan got paid, but that was a case of a guy with injury history.  Stamkos is nearing the end of his career, sort of.  Not the right fit for us.  Arvidsson was a good fit, but chose a team that will likely make the playoffs this year.

 

Zary and Pospisil could end up being a 2 or 3C.  Who knows though, as it takes time.  Zary probably has the highest chance, though I am not sure if Stromgren plays C or wing.  After them, we have to wait for the new crop to get to pro.  And the inevitable top 5 pick this and next year.  Top 5.  Yeah right.

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The Eichel type sweeps don't come around often, so I doubt you get one in trade.  Players that could be a top C tend to be overlooked by their own team and buried, but usually don't make to UFA.  Monahan got paid, but that was a case of a guy with injury history.  Stamkos is nearing the end of his career, sort of.  Not the right fit for us.  Arvidsson was a good fit, but chose a team that will likely make the playoffs this year.

 

Zary and Pospisil could end up being a 2 or 3C.  Who knows though, as it takes time.  Zary probably has the highest chance, though I am not sure if Stromgren plays C or wing.  After them, we have to wait for the new crop to get to pro.  And the inevitable top 5 pick this and next year.  Top 5.  Yeah right.

Wing

[jjgallow]

The fascination with a top C has always disturbed me a little.    Yes, in 2004, surely woulda been a difference maker but outside of that wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

 

Reason being our goaltending and defense wasn't where it needed to be.    

 

Is our D pipeline where it needs to be?  Imho no.  But after this draft it's at least close.    Is our goaltending pipeline where it needs to be?   Again imho no.    But a little better after this draft.   

 

2025 and 2026 drafts are loaded with elite centers, I am not even worried about that.   I am more concerned with getting the rest right 

[travel_dude]

On 7/26/2024 at 12:49 PM, cross16 said:

Wing

 

Drats, foiled again.  Oh well, maybe an injury replacement next year, or after the next TDL.

There are others ahead so, it's good that he's developing.

[travel_dude]

55 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

The fascination with a top C has always disturbed me a little.    Yes, in 2004, surely woulda been a difference maker but outside of that wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

 

Reason being our goaltending and defense wasn't where it needed to be.    

 

Is our D pipeline where it needs to be?  Imho no.  But after this draft it's at least close.    Is our goaltending pipeline where it needs to be?   Again imho no.    But a little better after this draft.   

 

2025 and 2026 drafts are loaded with elite centers, I am not even worried about that.   I am more concerned with getting the rest right 

 

Askarov is likely available, if you are interested.

 

The D pipeline is fine.  Not all scoring D are going to stay with that role.  

Without even considering this draft, we have some LD that could be NHL'ers sooner than later.

Considering the max contract limit, you can't have every D drafted over a short period of time.

It makes managing their contracts and playing time difficult.

 

 

I am more focused on elite C in the next two drafts because that's fits the timeframe for coming out of the rebuild.  3-5 years and one would be fitting into the top spot.  I would prefer to get 1 OA this season to take it off the table for MTL.  Not that there's a chance that 2 OA wiuld go to them, just avoilding possible bad times.  We can win the 26 lotto too, and that would be all we would need.  LOL

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

The fascination with a top C has always disturbed me a little.    Yes, in 2004, surely woulda been a difference maker but outside of that wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

 

Reason being our goaltending and defense wasn't where it needed to be.    

 

Is our D pipeline where it needs to be?  Imho no.  But after this draft it's at least close.    Is our goaltending pipeline where it needs to be?   Again imho no.    But a little better after this draft.   

 

2025 and 2026 drafts are loaded with elite centers, I am not even worried about that.   I am more concerned with getting the rest right 

i agree this these are the  years to draft the C.

 

i am just thinking we could have the depth centers needed in house if we started developing both Zary and Pospisil now.
 

Although, Pops would be about 28 or 29 when we are in a competitive window. We do need some guys in that age range to be good leaders for the young. It's cool he's taking on a leadership role for Honzek. Hope that is helping them both. 

 

I know we are getting ahead of ourselves. Just trying to think of ways to improve the system and team going forward, minimizing the mistakes we've made previously in the last two rebuilds. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Askarov is likely available, if you are interested.

 

The D pipeline is fine.  Not all scoring D are going to stay with that role.  

Without even considering this draft, we have some LD that could be NHL'ers sooner than later.

Considering the max contract limit, you can't have every D drafted over a short period of time.

It makes managing their contracts and playing time difficult.

 

 

I am more focused on elite C in the next two drafts because that's fits the timeframe for coming out of the rebuild.  3-5 years and one would be fitting into the top spot.  I would prefer to get 1 OA this season to take it off the table for MTL.  Not that there's a chance that 2 OA wiuld go to them, just avoilding possible bad times.  We can win the 26 lotto too, and that would be all we would need.  LOL

 

If Askarov is available then we need to be interested.  Yes, Wolf is looking decent but we need insurance in G.  Basically, we are Wolf or bust right now.

 

NSH switched from rebuild mode to win-now mode overnight with the Saros extension and signing Stamkos, Marchessault, etc.  They have suddenly become an ideal trading partner for the Flames.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

If Askarov is available then we need to be interested.  Yes, Wolf is looking decent but we need insurance in G.  Basically, we are Wolf or bust right now.

 

NSH switched from rebuild mode to win-now mode overnight with the Saros extension and signing Stamkos, Marchessault, etc.  They have suddenly become an ideal trading partner for the Flames.

they probably want a 1st rounder.

 

are there any players they'd like instead? Would they like a Kadri with somewhere between 30-50% retained? 

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

If Askarov is available then we need to be interested.  Yes, Wolf is looking decent but we need insurance in G.  Basically, we are Wolf or bust right now.

 

NSH switched from rebuild mode to win-now mode overnight with the Saros extension and signing Stamkos, Marchessault, etc.  They have suddenly become an ideal trading partner for the Flames.

I'd be very careful about him, personally. He kinda reminds me of Samsonov. Sure, he has the hype behind him, but he is currently not the next Vasy by any stretch of the imagination.

Milwaukee beat out Grand Rapids in the AHL playoffs, but Cossa outplayed Askarov by a fairly wide margin.

[robrob74]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'd be very careful about him, personally. He kinda reminds me of Samsonov. Sure, he has the hype behind him, but he is currently not the next Vasy by any stretch of the imagination.

Milwaukee beat out Grand Rapids in the AHL playoffs, but Cossa outplayed Askarov by a fairly wide margin.

 

not trying to say Cossa didn't outplay him. Nor have I seen the games. Just wondering, thinking back to the Brian Elliott days. St. Louis made him look REALLY REALLY good. When he got to the Flames he looked good at times and below average at times. 
 

I just think sometimes hockey being a team game can determine how the goalie looks. not saying Askarov is going to look as good as Vas, just that maybe if we concentrate on D, an average goalie can look good.

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

they probably want a 1st rounder.

 

are there any players they'd like instead? Would they like a Kadri with somewhere between 30-50% retained? 

 

No, if they are in win-now mode then they probably don't want 1st round picks.  They want Andersson, Weegar, Kadri, etc.   

[The_People1]

18 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'd be very careful about him, personally. He kinda reminds me of Samsonov. Sure, he has the hype behind him, but he is currently not the next Vasy by any stretch of the imagination.

Milwaukee beat out Grand Rapids in the AHL playoffs, but Cossa outplayed Askarov by a fairly wide margin.

 

Ya better than nothing though.  If Wolf struggles or doesn't pan out long term, then who else do we have?  Sergeev?  Yegorov?  It's an insurance policy to add one more young G with some hype.  Considering where we are at in this rebuild/retool, we should have no problem moving a veteran or two to shore up future G.

[cross16]

When they hosted the draft the popular rumor was Askarov was being pitched to get the Preds another first round pick and a top 10 at that.  I think his name has been out there for a while but the price is high. 
 

I don’t mind the idea of picking him up and like the idea of more insurance but I think it’s likely cost prohibitive at the moment. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

No, if they are in win-now mode then they probably don't want 1st round picks.  They want Andersson, Weegar, Kadri, etc.   

i did a quick check, and understanding centers can switch easily to wing, they have plenty of centers.  They could use a Kadri, but was also thinking Andersson could be a good option. There is value there. 
 

I wonder, am I greedy and want more than Askarov for Andersson?