Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition

[MP5029]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Not to be offensive, but if anyone knew the proper way to do things, they'd be worth 1,000 times their weight in gold.

Instability at goal, we're watching it with NJ, Toronto, Carolina etc. Maybe we should trade stabilities?

We already picked NJ the proper way. Take the guy that needs a chance. Mercer and Holtz get nothing but chances. We literally already ripped them off for that guy. We should wait and see if that's a trend. Maybe our scouting team is really nailing it for Conroy on finding players that need chances?

I'm willing to make that bet. Never heard of Grushnikov? Me neither. But I'm willing to bet a Flames scout not only knew of him, but got a 2nd scout to audit, then they told Conroy he's a hidden gem that needs to be targeted. Start with Stankoven, but your real intention is Grushnikov. Let the other GM think that he really put you through the grinder.

That's just me surmising, but I doubt that I'm far from the truth. Professional bullSatoshi Nakamototers. I'd imagine the Toffoli trade ended with, "look, I think I'm giving you more than a good enough player for Mercer, but I'll settle on Sharangovich, but I want your 2nd this year. You're killing me, man. Alright, a 3rd".

I’m with you on this tactic…Shar has been exploiting in terms of development..how much better he can be is hard to say, but even if this is as good as it gets, safe to say he’s at least a solid #2 Ctr easily replacing Lindholm.

 

sometimes the “big name” is not as important as the chemistry between players…the big thing with Shar which we all figured when we got him, was he may click with Hubie…that has most definitely happened so that’s worth like 2 players alone 

[conundrumed]

31 minutes ago, cberg said:

All your points are valid, for the most part Markstrom has been great for the Flames and is top-of-his-game atm.  That being said, there are a couple issues you forgot to mention.  First he is only signed for 2 more years and likely will be spent, or not here once the building is complete and the Flames re-enter serious competitive window.  Currently at his peak value he can return serious value if traded now.  The Flames have had an untenable goalie situation all year, which will continue if a goalie trade is not made.  Wolf MAY not be the answer, but he has killed it up till now and the Flames did not get him into a backup role this season so he can earn a spot, and no trades that will continue next season.  It is time to SOGOTP and bring Wolf in full-time as back-up.  He is the future, and languishing on the Wranglers, in order to enjoy a few more, likely futile wins with peak Markstrom is selfish and detrimental to the Flames.  The time has come. Trade Markstrom NOW.

Trade Vladar and Wolf gets a great mentor, or gets to deal with this fanbase alone.

Screaming now doesn't add jack-Satoshi Nakamoto btw. Nice try at effect though. I missed nothing but you pretending that your opinion is the all-encompassing truth. "Likely" and "maybe" statements contradict what you're trying to purvey.

[phoenix66]

Not gonna happen.. so don't think I'm suggesting it .. but I can't help but think how enjoyable it would be to watch Connie flip all this capital on playoff rentals today to push for the playoffs and watch all the boards and social media go nuclear 🤣🤣

[MP5029]

1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

Trade Vladar and Wolf gets a great mentor, or gets to deal with this fanbase alone.

Screaming now doesn't add jack-Satoshi Nakamoto btw. Nice try at effect though. I missed nothing but you pretending that your opinion is the all-encompassing truth. "Likely" and "maybe" statements contradict what you're trying to purvey.

Wolf doesn’t need a mentor he need to face NHL pucks, the more the better, he’s that guy that needs to adjust.  His first year in the AHL was not great, after that he’s dominated…and he’s been that way at every level, NHL will be no different.

 

keeping Markstrom really helps absolutely nothing, if anything it impress and slows Wolfs NHL development time.

 

if Cgy was in or had a real chance to make the playoffs I could totally get behind keeping Markstrom but fact is they are 8 points out, all the teams above them keep winning…to the point even when Cgy wins they fall further out.

granted the schedule is not kind for them they don’t play only of those teams above them that they could catch.

 

the big question is, why keep Markstrom at this point? Do you really think they can get in?
 

The odds are against them, the safe bet, trade Markstrom, get Wolf some Regular NHL experience, get a haul of assets while markstrom is as good as any goalie in the NhL now…why risk him sliding back to last years performance? You get no one wanting him let alone the haul you get for him as he’s playing now.  Added you hedge against a false perception of what your team really is…drop in the standings get a much better draft pick too…really there is nothing that benefits Cgy by keeping Markstrom if he’s in happy and wanting to leave let him go.

 

the only reason you keep Markstrom at this point is if he’s said to Conroy I don’t want to go anywhere…then you honour the NTC but that’s really the only reason to keep him 

[MP5029]

7 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Not gonna happen.. so don't think I'm suggesting it .. but I can't help but think how enjoyable it would be to watch Connie flip all this capital on playoff rentals today to push for the playoffs and watch all the boards and social media go nuclear 🤣🤣

Stupid hockey move but yeas absolutely hilarious 

[phoenix66]

Just now, MP5029 said:

Wolf doesn’t need a mentor he need to face NHL pucks, the more the better, he’s that guy that needs to adjust.  His first year in the AHL was not great, after that he’s dominated…and he’s been that way at every level, NHL will be no different.

 

keeping Markstrom really helps absolutely nothing, if anything it impress and slows Wolfs NHL development time.

 

if Cgy was in or had a real chance to make the playoffs I could totally get behind keeping Markstrom but fact is they are 8 points out, all the teams above them keep winning…to the point even when Cgy wins they fall further out.

granted the schedule is not kind for them they don’t play only of those teams above them that they could catch.

 

the big question is, why keep Markstrom at this point? Do you really think they can get in?
 

The odds are against them, the safe bet, trade Markstrom, get Wolf some Regular NHL experience, get a haul of assets while markstrom is as good as any goalie in the NhL now…why risk him sliding back to last years performance? You get no one wanting him let alone the haul you get for him as he’s playing now.  Added you hedge against a false perception of what your team really is…drop in the standings get a much better draft pick too…really there is nothing that benefits Cgy by keeping Markstrom if he’s in happy and wanting to leave let him go.

 

the only reason you keep Markstrom at this point is if he’s said to Conroy I don’t want to go anywhere…then you honour the NTC but that’s really the only reason to keep him 

I don't know how old y'all are in this room but some of us are old enough to have seen this story before ..

 

We had a goalie ..a future hall of famer ..fanfav..won us a Stanley Cup even... 

We drafted a hot prospect .. can't miss..high pedigree.. started in the minors ..played great there..fans fell in love with him.. when he played ..he played great.. the old guy struggled a bit..soon they basically ran him out of town and handed the mantle to the Kidd (see what I did there ? Lol).. he stepped right into the starters role.. ton of games ..he was ok..so so...  Lost a playoff series and the fans ran him out of town...

He was never the same again.. ironically we traded his backup...then later traded him for his old backup back...

 

 

Now there were many reasons for his downfall..not the least was the coach who messed with his head ..but the lesson was he was not ready to be that guy.. another year backing up Vernon...taking his job the old fashioned way..would have likely kept him on the right path..

 

Throwing this new kid on to get shelled and blown up will ruin him...and it won't take long for the fan base currently banging the drum for him to turn on him..

Goalies are another breed ..they need to be eased on..coddled somewhat .. or well have another Trevor Kidd on our hands ..

[phoenix66]

11 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Stupid hockey move but yeas absolutely hilarious 

Oh ya id be the first to criticize it ..but the entertainment value of reading social media woul be the price of admission 🤣

[conundrumed]

18 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Not gonna happen.. so don't think I'm suggesting it .. but I can't help but think how enjoyable it would be to watch Connie flip all this capital on playoff rentals today to push for the playoffs and watch all the boards and social media go nuclear 🤣🤣

I love you for that!! The echo chambers would be fire. lol

[cberg]

15 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Not to be offensive, but if anyone knew the proper way to do things, they'd be worth 1,000 times their weight in gold.

Instability at goal, we're watching it with NJ, Toronto, Carolina etc. Maybe we should trade stabilities?

We already picked NJ the proper way. Take the guy that needs a chance. Mercer and Holtz get nothing but chances. We literally already ripped them off for that guy. We should wait and see if that's a trend. Maybe our scouting team is really nailing it for Conroy on finding players that need chances?

I'm willing to make that bet. Never heard of Grushnikov? Me neither. But I'm willing to bet a Flames scout not only knew of him, but got a 2nd scout to audit, then they told Conroy he's a hidden gem that needs to be targeted. Start with Stankoven, but your real intention is Grushnikov. Let the other GM think that he really put you through the grinder.

That's just me surmising, but I doubt that I'm far from the truth. Professional bullSatoshi Nakamototers. I'd imagine the Toffoli trade ended with, "look, I think I'm giving you more than a good enough player for Mercer, but I'll settle on Sharangovich, but I want your 2nd this year. You're killing me, man. Alright, a 3rd".

I love the way you think, and I agree Conroy may just have pulled off multiple coups, targeting potentially great players for whatever reason on the verge who can blossom here.  We will see, but I am very encouraged.

 

Getting back to Markstrom, or more appropriately Flame's goalies, who is THE PLAN for the next 5 years, for stability and success?  I think we all agree Markstrom is playing great, and with 2 more years under contract is a strong bet to continue so although slightly declining.  After his contract runs out, it is unlikely the Flames re-sign him, then at 36/37 years old, so who comes in?  ATM, we have Vladar as #2, and Wolf festering at mega-success in the AHL, plus potentials with a couple Russian goalies not yet signed.  If nothing changes we get the same set-up as this year.  I'm not certain(seen both views) if Wolf is Waiver-eligible or not next year but if so that's a problem because we wouldn't be able to bring him up and down due to the likelihood he'd be claimed by another team, based on his history to date.  So, "Status Quo" is keep same set-up, have top end Markstrom during rebuild phase, probably limiting draft success but providing winning culture, stability for 2 years.  Wolf not developed to succeed him, dies on the vine, chaos with no successor in 2 years entering Cup window, scrambling to find a top goalie.  "Alternative1" is trade Markstrom for top end assets, enhances rebuild with better drafts. Next two years focus on building Wolf to top end replacement goalie, all the while  focusing on others, aka Vladar/Russians as alternatives should Wolf not turn out.  If Vladar/?/Wolf really struggles next year start search for top end goalie for 2 years out.  "Alternative2" is trade/waive Vladar, keep Markstrom, bring up Wolf to learn under/eventually replace Markstrom, probably dampens rebuild with lower drafts while likely no playoffs, no high-end players received for a Markstrom trade.  Maintain stability overall but limit rebuild.  "Alternative3" keep Markstrom today, trade in Summer when more teams looking and able to slice and dice rosters, however mega competition from multiple, other high-end goalies.  Likely lessor return.  Similar results to status quo.  

 

The bottom line is there is no perfect solution, and although goalie stability is highly desired, when is that most important?  Next 2 years or after when we want to be most competitive?  What is the plan to achieve that?

[cberg]

31 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Trade Vladar and Wolf gets a great mentor, or gets to deal with this fanbase alone.

Screaming now doesn't add jack-Satoshi Nakamoto btw. Nice try at effect though. I missed nothing but you pretending that your opinion is the all-encompassing truth. "Likely" and "maybe" statements contradict what you're trying to purvey.

Sorry, not pretending any "all-encompassing truth", just laying out my thoughts.  Also, don't agree with social media "truth" that caps is "screaming".  I'm not screaming, just sharing, with emphasis.  Nobody knows the future, that is for sure.

[cberg]

23 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Wolf doesn’t need a mentor he need to face NHL pucks, the more the better, he’s that guy that needs to adjust.  His first year in the AHL was not great, after that he’s dominated…and he’s been that way at every level, NHL will be no different.

 

keeping Markstrom really helps absolutely nothing, if anything it impress and slows Wolfs NHL development time.

 

if Cgy was in or had a real chance to make the playoffs I could totally get behind keeping Markstrom but fact is they are 8 points out, all the teams above them keep winning…to the point even when Cgy wins they fall further out.

granted the schedule is not kind for them they don’t play only of those teams above them that they could catch.

 

the big question is, why keep Markstrom at this point? Do you really think they can get in?
 

The odds are against them, the safe bet, trade Markstrom, get Wolf some Regular NHL experience, get a haul of assets while markstrom is as good as any goalie in the NhL now…why risk him sliding back to last years performance? You get no one wanting him let alone the haul you get for him as he’s playing now.  Added you hedge against a false perception of what your team really is…drop in the standings get a much better draft pick too…really there is nothing that benefits Cgy by keeping Markstrom if he’s in happy and wanting to leave let him go.

 

the only reason you keep Markstrom at this point is if he’s said to Conroy I don’t want to go anywhere…then you honour the NTC but that’s really the only reason to keep him 

Sounds reasonable all around...

[cberg]

15 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I don't know how old y'all are in this room but some of us are old enough to have seen this story before ..

 

We had a goalie ..a future hall of famer ..fanfav..won us a Stanley Cup even... 

We drafted a hot prospect .. can't miss..high pedigree.. started in the minors ..played great there..fans fell in love with him.. when he played ..he played great.. the old guy struggled a bit..soon they basically ran him out of town and handed the mantle to the Kidd (see what I did there ? Lol).. he stepped right into the starters role.. ton of games ..he was ok..so so...  Lost a playoff series and the fans ran him out of town...

He was never the same again.. ironically we traded his backup...then later traded him for his old backup back...

 

 

Now there were many reasons for his downfall..not the least was the coach who messed with his head ..but the lesson was he was not ready to be that guy.. another year backing up Vernon...taking his job the old fashioned way..would have likely kept him on the right path..

 

Throwing this new kid on to get shelled and blown up will ruin him...and it won't take long for the fan base currently banging the drum for him to turn on him..

Goalies are another breed ..they need to be eased on..coddled somewhat .. or well have another Trevor Kidd on our hands ..

Certainly can happen, so what is the plan to get him NHL games?  Currently have Markstrom for 2 more years, Vladar for 1 more year.  Wolf RFA after this season.  Will he re-sign if no plan?  He'll become waiver-eligible next year?  All you status quo guys, answers please?

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Had to know Guentzel would take a, "back up the truck". So is it both Bunting AND Ponomarev that are ex-Dubas?

Not sure what those conditions are, but that 1st needs to be rock solid.

Conditions are crazy.

2nd becomes a first if they reach the finals.

5th disappears if they don't win the cup.

 

Pens GM, in the process, pisses off the captain.

Well done. 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, cberg said:

Certainly can happen, so what is the plan to get him NHL games?  Currently have Markstrom for 2 more years, Vladar for 1 more year.  Wolf RFA after this season.  Will he re-sign if no plan?  He'll become waiver-eligible next year?  All you status quo guys, answers please?

personally I move Vladar.. get Wolf into the backup role.. but get him regular starts. back to back starts.. ideally 30-35 games.. key is to get him right back in after a loss so it doesn't pressure him as much .  the better he plays the more games he takes .. if can legit steal the job then he gets every opportunity to do so 

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, cberg said:

I love the way you think, and I agree Conroy may just have pulled off multiple coups, targeting potentially great players for whatever reason on the verge who can blossom here.  We will see, but I am very encouraged.

 

Getting back to Markstrom, or more appropriately Flame's goalies, who is THE PLAN for the next 5 years, for stability and success?  I think we all agree Markstrom is playing great, and with 2 more years under contract is a strong bet to continue so although slightly declining.  After his contract runs out, it is unlikely the Flames re-sign him, then at 36/37 years old, so who comes in?  ATM, we have Vladar as #2, and Wolf festering at mega-success in the AHL, plus potentials with a couple Russian goalies not yet signed.  If nothing changes we get the same set-up as this year.  I'm not certain(seen both views) if Wolf is Waiver-eligible or not next year but if so that's a problem because we wouldn't be able to bring him up and down due to the likelihood he'd be claimed by another team, based on his history to date.  So, "Status Quo" is keep same set-up, have top end Markstrom during rebuild phase, probably limiting draft success but providing winning culture, stability for 2 years.  Wolf not developed to succeed him, dies on the vine, chaos with no successor in 2 years entering Cup window, scrambling to find a top goalie.  "Alternative1" is trade Markstrom for top end assets, enhances rebuild with better drafts. Next two years focus on building Wolf to top end replacement goalie, all the while  focusing on others, aka Vladar/Russians as alternatives should Wolf not turn out.  If Vladar/?/Wolf really struggles next year start search for top end goalie for 2 years out.  "Alternative2" is trade/waive Vladar, keep Markstrom, bring up Wolf to learn under/eventually replace Markstrom, probably dampens rebuild with lower drafts while likely no playoffs, no high-end players received for a Markstrom trade.  Maintain stability overall but limit rebuild.  "Alternative3" keep Markstrom today, trade in Summer when more teams looking and able to slice and dice rosters, however mega competition from multiple, other high-end goalies.  Likely lessor return.  Similar results to status quo.  

 

The bottom line is there is no perfect solution, and although goalie stability is highly desired, when is that most important?  Next 2 years or after when we want to be most competitive?  What is the plan to achieve that?

@phoenix66 quite eloquently described surfer-dude Kidd(there's a jr backstory I'll spare you) and what went wrong. Wolf should be Markstrom's backup. Markstrom can tell him the tendencies of every shooter in the league. If you need to figure it out for yourself, you could get in big trouble. Goalie coaches can't teach that. Experienced goalies can. Not unlike great young Centers that rock a 36% FO% to start. They need the experienced Cs to explain everyone's tendencies. Left alone, it takes forever.

So I get that Markstrom gets a good return. The "but" is that goalies aren't skaters. I don't think aging is the same equation. Can Markstrom be great at 37-38? Maybe he can, I just can't 100% say he can't. If he stays the same, he extends to retirement for cheaper as a backup/1A-1B?

I just hate the scenario where Kipper leaves and our goaltending becomes an endless quagmire of hot garbage.

With Markstrom, options are still on the table. Without him we have no options.

[cberg]

12 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

personally I move Vladar.. get Wolf into the backup role.. but get him regular starts. back to back starts.. ideally 30-35 games.. key is to get him right back in after a loss so it doesn't pressure him as much .  the better he plays the more games he takes .. if can legit steal the job then he gets every opportunity to do so 

Yeah, I love that idea too, would have liked to have seen it happen last Summer.  It didn't. Seems no market for Vladar, understand as his results have been spotty and overall not great.  Guess Flames can waive him and send him down to the Wranglers.

[MP5029]

4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

@phoenix66 quite eloquently described surfer-dude Kidd(there's a jr backstory I'll spare you) and what went wrong. Wolf should be Markstrom's backup. Markstrom can tell him the tendencies of every shooter in the league. If you need to figure it out for yourself, you could get in big trouble. Goalie coaches can't teach that. Experienced goalies can. Not unlike great young Centers that rock a 36% FO% to start. They need the experienced Cs to explain everyone's tendencies. Left alone, it takes forever.

So I get that Markstrom gets a good return. The "but" is that goalies aren't skaters. I don't think aging is the same equation. Can Markstrom be great at 37-38? Maybe he can, I just can't 100% say he can't. If he stays the same, he extends to retirement for cheaper as a backup/1A-1B?

I just hate the scenario where Kipper leaves and our goaltending becomes an endless quagmire of hot garbage.

With Markstrom, options are still on the table. Without him we have no options.

You have a goalie coach to do what your suggesting Markstrom doing…why?

[cberg]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

@phoenix66 quite eloquently described surfer-dude Kidd(there's a jr backstory I'll spare you) and what went wrong. Wolf should be Markstrom's backup. Markstrom can tell him the tendencies of every shooter in the league. If you need to figure it out for yourself, you could get in big trouble. Goalie coaches can't teach that. Experienced goalies can. Not unlike great young Centers that rock a 36% FO% to start. They need the experienced Cs to explain everyone's tendencies. Left alone, it takes forever.

So I get that Markstrom gets a good return. The "but" is that goalies aren't skaters. I don't think aging is the same equation. Can Markstrom be great at 37-38? Maybe he can, I just can't 100% say he can't. If he stays the same, he extends to retirement for cheaper as a backup/1A-1B?

I just hate the scenario where Kipper leaves and our goaltending becomes an endless quagmire of hot garbage.

With Markstrom, options are still on the table. Without him we have no options.

Whichever path the Flames choose, Wolf needs to be brought up and get regular games.  We both agree on that.

[travel_dude]

The goalie debate will outlast the TDL no doubt.

 

Reasons to trade:

- possible solid offer on the table, could get a little more now

- 2024 draft pick may be part of it

- Markstrom is playing lights out this year, but could regress next season or even in April

 

Reasons to keep:

- playoffs may still be possible, though we have little chance of even making the 2nd round

- mentor for current backup and prospect G

- may have a 2 year window or so at the level he played this year

- trading him puts us back in the goalie market

 

I haven't really gone into depth the reasons for or against, just some of what people have talked about.  

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

You have a goalie coach to do what your suggesting Markstrom doing…why?

Because a goalie coach isn't living it. A heavily experienced goalie KNOWS how 400 different players have tricked them and keep trying the same tricks.

It's the old saying, "Those that can't do, teach".

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

- may have a 2 year window or so at the level he played this year

Or more.

[MP5029]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Or more.

Or less

[MP5029]

Im Wondering…Cgy and Ott

 

Brumstrum (sp?) + 2024 1st + ?

 

Markstrom + vcr 2024 1st 

 

 

[MP5029]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Because a goalie coach isn't living it. A heavily experienced goalie KNOWS how 400 different players have tricked them and keep trying the same tricks.

It's the old saying, "Those that can't do, teach".

WOW your too attached. There is really no reason to keep Markstrom…not unless you’re making the playoffs, cause the next 2 which he’s under contract definitely not…get the assets asap…Vladar can shelter wolf the rest of this season and next why keep

marstrom…nothing he can provide that the goalie coach can’t…going by your logic…those who can’t teach them why have Markstrom teach unless you think he can’t?

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Or less

Glass is empty?