2023 Offseason

[Thebrewcrew]

Columbus is a team I'd look at for a Lindholm trade. 

 

There's pressure on Jarmo. They gave Johnny the big deal, then finished last in the league. They were very injured last year, but from an ownership perspective, pretty unacceptable after landing the biggest UFA. Columbus likely needs to be a playoff team next year.

 

You're not getting the 3rd pick, but they do have the 22nd pick from LA. 

 

Whether it be an extension or trade lots of comps to Bo Horvat. In the case of trade, Horvat went for a 1st, Beauvillier and Raty. So 1st, top 9 forward and arguably NYI's best prospect.

 

In the case of CBJ, I think it would be pick 22, Cole Sillinger and then I'd really push for Denton Mateychuk. Right now he might be CBJ's 2nd best prospect, behind Jiricek. Pt/g D in the Dub. With Sillinger, it's been widely suggested the Flames wanted him before he went one pick ahead to CBJ, really good rookie year, terrible sophomore year. I think he's their Sam Bennett, rushed to the NHL. How many 12th overall picks make the NHL out of junior? He was rushed.

 

It would be disappointing to have to deal Lindholm, but in a deal like this, you add three premium cost-controlled assets under the age of 20. I'd rather that than a "hockey trade".

 

[sak22]

31 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Columbus is a team I'd look at for a Lindholm trade. 

 

There's pressure on Jarmo. They gave Johnny the big deal, then finished last in the league. They were very injured last year, but from an ownership perspective, pretty unacceptable after landing the biggest UFA. Columbus likely needs to be a playoff team next year.

 

You're not getting the 3rd pick, but they do have the 22nd pick from LA. 

 

Whether it be an extension or trade lots of comps to Bo Horvat. In the case of trade, Horvat went for a 1st, Beauvillier and Raty. So 1st, top 9 forward and arguably NYI's best prospect.

 

In the case of CBJ, I think it would be pick 22, Cole Sillinger and then I'd really push for Denton Mateychuk. Right now he might be CBJ's 2nd best prospect, behind Jiricek. Pt/g D in the Dub. With Sillinger, it's been widely suggested the Flames wanted him before he went one pick ahead to CBJ, really good rookie year, terrible sophomore year. I think he's their Sam Bennett, rushed to the NHL. How many 12th overall picks make the NHL out of junior? He was rushed.

 

It would be disappointing to have to deal Lindholm, but in a deal like this, you add three premium cost-controlled assets under the age of 20. I'd rather that than a "hockey trade".

 

I think 22 and Sillinger could be a starting point, but I think Mateychuk wouldn't get added to that, I don't see a package of 3 recent 1st round picks being the return, I think something along the lines of the Horvat trade while I think Lindholm is quite a bit better and they are the same age the whole recency bias that Horvat was having a career year and Lindholm is coming off a 20 goal decline.

[sak22]

Sticking with Columbus and Lindholm

Could the Flames trade Elias Lindholm for a 2023 first-round pick? Mailbag - The Athletic

Quote

Long shot, but do you think Columbus would be willing to trade the third overall pick to Calgary for Lindholm+? Columbus thought they’d be good last year but were destroyed by injuries and having Johnny Gaudreau’s solid center in the fold might be attractive (especially since they both had career years together). Calgary gets a chance at a potential top center (Smith, Carlsson), a potential top defenseman (Reinbacher), or the long-term potential of Michkov. What would the + have to be to make this happen? — Guy D.

I consulted my friend and colleague Aaron Portzline for this question. Here’s what Aaron had to say:

In order to say what the “+” needs to be worth, we’d first have to establish how the players mentioned in the trade compare. Certainly, with the No. 3 pick, there’s some uncertainty, even though this is regarded as a strong draft through the top four or five picks. But there’d be uncertainty for the club acquiring Lindholm, too, because he’s an unrestricted free agent after next season. He’s eligible to sign an extension, and that would be absolutely key for Columbus. If he’s not willing to sign an extension, I don’t think the Blue Jackets would trade the No. 3 pick straight up for Lindholm. In fact, I know they wouldn’t. If he does sign an extension, it’s a trade the Blue Jackets could get pretty excited about, as Lindholm is not only in his prime (28) but has shown previous success with Gaudreau. We’ve seen their chemistry. It’s pretty impressive. So, if Lindholm were to sign an extension, I don’t think the “+” would have to be that massive. Lindholm (with a multi-year extension) and a 2023 second-round pick for the No. 3? — Portzline

Portzline doesn't think it's out of the question, I still would lean towards highly unlikely but it could be possible, out of the GM's picking top 5 Jarmo is sitting in the warmest seat and could do something drastic.

[The_People1]

9 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Sticking with Columbus and Lindholm

Could the Flames trade Elias Lindholm for a 2023 first-round pick? Mailbag - The Athletic

Portzline doesn't think it's out of the question, I still would lean towards highly unlikely but it could be possible, out of the GM's picking top 5 Jarmo is sitting in the warmest seat and could do something drastic.

 

Well the problem with this is, Lindholm can't be extended until July 1.  Can't put pen to paper so it's only a handshake that they can do.

 

That said, I would trade anything for the #3.  Pick Leo Carlsson who can become a #1 Center for the next 15 years (assuming Bedard and Fantilli are gone).  I would even do Rasmus Andersson.  Having a #1 Center is franchise changing.

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well the problem with this is, Lindholm can't be extended until July 1.  Can't put pen to paper so it's only a handshake that they can do.

 

That said, I would trade anything for the #3.  Pick Leo Carlsson who can become a #1 Center for the next 15 years (assuming Bedard and Fantilli are gone).  I would even do Rasmus Andersson.  Having a #1 Center is franchise changing.

 

So we are trading a current 1/2 C for a possible 1C in the future?  Would I consider it if Lindy was not extending?  Of course.  Trading Lindholm signals a rebuild.  Make Hubey and Kadri useless signings.  

 

I have no issue in trading Lindholm for Necas.  That makes sense, but CAR doesn't make that trade.

 

We have to consider what we have that is expendable that we didn't just sign or re-sign.  I would say that players like Mange, Dube, Hanifin, Tanev, Backlund, Vladar/Markstrom have to be figured out.  Do they have the game we need to compete?  Are they able to elevate their game?  Dube is probably the best one to keep from that bunch.  Vladar is more likely to have a better season overall than Markstrom.  

 

Anyway, only players that don't fit what we need going forward should be dealt.  

[The_People1]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So we are trading a current 1/2 C for a possible 1C in the future?  Would I consider it if Lindy was not extending?  Of course.  Trading Lindholm signals a rebuild.  Make Hubey and Kadri useless signings.  

 

I have no issue in trading Lindholm for Necas.  That makes sense, but CAR doesn't make that trade.

 

We have to consider what we have that is expendable that we didn't just sign or re-sign.  I would say that players like Mange, Dube, Hanifin, Tanev, Backlund, Vladar/Markstrom have to be figured out.  Do they have the game we need to compete?  Are they able to elevate their game?  Dube is probably the best one to keep from that bunch.  Vladar is more likely to have a better season overall than Markstrom.  

 

Anyway, only players that don't fit what we need going forward should be dealt.  

 

And honestly if Lindholm wants to go to CBJ to reunite with Johnny, then CBJ can just sign him as UFA next summer... all while keeping Leo Carlsson.

[Thebrewcrew]

The fact that all Elias Lindholm has to do is turn the TV on to see Tkachuk thriving, probably hurts the Flames chances at an extension.

 

 

Back to CBJ. It would be fantastic if the Flames could get the 3rd pick. The cost would be tremendous. It likely would cost Lindholm, 16th and the 2024 1st, maybe even more. 

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The fact that all Elias Lindholm has to do is turn the TV on to see Tkachuk thriving, probably hurts the Flames chances at an extension.

 

 

Back to CBJ. It would be fantastic if the Flames could get the 3rd pick. The cost would be tremendous. It likely would cost Lindholm, 16th and the 2024 1st, maybe even more. 

 

It works two ways.  He had that with 2 players in 21/22.  So, he sees a great passer come to CGY and not play more than 6 games together.  Instead he gets a guy that played 21/22 on the 3rd line and whoever.  Not throwing shade at the whoever, but Toffoli was not a passer.  The LW was a mix of players.  Ruzicka worked but didn't last 20 games.  Dube played there but not sure how many games.  Pelletier for a few.  

 

Huberdeau joked that Lindholm might get 50 goals playing together.  Never got a chance to see if true.  

 

I think it's more important to Lindholm that they make a move to actually get a top 6 LW.  Either that or move up Huberdeau and get a player for line 2.

[sagacity7]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

It works two ways.  He had that with 2 players in 21/22.  So, he sees a great passer come to CGY and not play more than 6 games together.  Instead he gets a guy that played 21/22 on the 3rd line and whoever.  Not throwing shade at the whoever, but Toffoli was not a passer.  The LW was a mix of players.  Ruzicka worked but didn't last 20 games.  Dube played there but not sure how many games.  Pelletier for a few.  

 

Huberdeau joked that Lindholm might get 50 goals playing together.  Never got a chance to see if true.  

 

I think it's more important to Lindholm that they make a move to actually get a top 6 LW.  Either that or move up Huberdeau and get a player for line 2.

Sorry for the book here. This is interesting for sure. Why would you go out to find a LW to build chemistry with a player who has 1 year left on his deal? What if that doesn’t work this year with a new LW?

If you were to ask Lindholm who he had the most fun playing with in the NHL I’m sure he would say Johnny was his #1 choice for a LW chemistry partner. You could almost see it on the ice last year as Lindholm was looking for Gaudreau speeding through the ice only to find a slower less capable player to work with. It didn’t work and it showed. His comments at the end of the year said it as much. He would welcome a chance to play with Johnny again and have fun there even if there is new fun management here. I’m not saying he would be a cancer this year but as the year progresses, if it’s not working for him, this wouldn’t be good for Calgary from a risk management perspective. Right now you have a player you can move anywhere who wasn’t overly thrilled last year. If he finishes the year here and doesn’t have a great season his value may drop. His value is highest now and he may not want to be here anyway after this year. I don’t believe Conroy would let him go for nothing if he feels Lindholm will test free agency. He pretty much said that in so many words.

 

Columbus’ GM is in win now mode after signing Johnny last year and having Laine with a big contract. There is pressure for him to build a winning and exciting team now. You could say he can just sign Lindholm in free agency after this year but he may not have a job after this year so again risk management comes into it for him. He most likely won’t be around to see that 3rd overall pick develop.
 

I believe an extended signed Lindholm (handshake for after July 1) plus a 2nd round pick or an NHL ready former first or second round prospect for a 3rd overall this year is fair value. There is no guarantee a 3rd overall pick is going to be the same or better player than Lindholm is. To make it work cap wise Columbus would also send an unwanted roster player (cap dump so to speak or 3rd/4th line player) to Calgary earning less money than Lindholm.

This actually has merit and could be a good trade for both teams. If you believe Calgary wouldn’t be a playoff team without a great player like Lindholm you could flip that pick as part of a package for another player such as Keller or Marner or someone else.

 

You could potentially get 1st round picks for Toffoli, Backlund, Hanifin (perhaps a second as well here) and maybe Tanev as well if you want to rebuild or trade those picks for younger, solid, up and coming players at those positions and set yourself up for years to come without going full rebuild mode. Tanev you can only count on for 3/4 of a season anyway and you know Vancouver would love to have him back. I’m not saying you move all those players, but would you rather have 3 or 4 first round picks in a deep draft to rebuild or flip those picks for younger, less costly, solid and excited players with term to help you win? You now also have cap room to sign good free agents to fill legitimate needs. If you keep them you run the risk of getting little return after this year. Again you could say just trade them before the deadline if the season is lost for picks and prospects but you don’t know what their value would be at that time. You would also get later first rounders from contenders looking to add in a potentially less deep draft next year. If one is on the IR well you can’t even move him and that might be a lost cause.
 

When you have the luxury of options you hold the better cards to add the right player for your team. Imagine if you did the deal with Columbus and then moved 2 first round picks in a deep draft and Hanifin for Keller or Marner (add a third team for 50% salary retention for this one) or whatever makes that work for those teams? Is your team better? I would say yes it is. You may still have a first round pick in this draft left over and a really good team for more than 1 year. If you handcuff yourself again and again you will get the same result year after year. As a risk manager the GM should not force his own hand especially with players you could send anywhere in the league for the best return possible. If you’re going to act you do it this summer.

 

Here’s hoping for some responsible asset management. Good luck Mr. Conroy as you’ve got a heck of a job ahead of you!

 

 

[conundrumed]

I would think the chance of 3rd oa for Lindholm are absolute zero. Maybe a later 1st, player and prospect, but no way a 3 oa in this draft.

As @cross16 said, a Horvat-similar return. That pick is now at 17oa as it maxed out as high as it was going to go.

[sagacity7]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I would think the chance of 3rd oa for Lindholm are absolute zero. Maybe a later 1st, player and prospect, but no way a 3 oa in this draft.

As @cross16 said, a Horvat-similar return. That pick is now at 17oa as it maxed out as high as it was going to go.

Sure. Straight up you are correct. With other things involved then maybe. Most likely it wouldn’t be done this way anyway as a #3 rarely gets moved. I still would want the flexibility of bringing in other assets for a player who may not re-sign here after season’s end. If you could extend Lindholm now then great, we would watch some other dominoes start to fall to make room.

[JTech780]

I am old and I still use Facebook, on Facebook I follow the Flames and they recently updated their cover photo with a collage of current Flames players. Front and center are Huberdeau and Weegar, Pelletier, Coronato and Duehr are also in this collage.

 

I am probably looking to deep, but missing are Toffoli and Lindholm, Backlund another upcoming pending UFA is in the collage. Just found it interesting that two of the leading forwards are not featured in the collage. Makes me think that there is some uncertainty about their futures here.

 

Anyways hope everyone has a great day!

 

 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I would think the chance of 3rd oa for Lindholm are absolute zero. Maybe a later 1st, player and prospect, but no way a 3 oa in this draft.

As @cross16 said, a Horvat-similar return. That pick is now at 17oa as it maxed out as high as it was going to go.

 

If Lindholm was signed for another 5-years at a team friendly deal then yes.  But one year away from UFA, CBJ would be smart to wait 1 year and just sign him without trading the 3oa... assuming Lindholm wants to unite with Johnny again, CBJ would have Lindholm + Carlsson 1/2 down the middle for many years.

[JTech780]

The problem with this suggestion of trading Lindholm for 3rd overall is that it has Lindholm signing an extension which he can’t do before July 1st. I can’t see Columbus trading 3rd overall with no guarantee that Lindholm will sign an extension.

 

I am a big fan of Lindholm, but I don’t think signing him to an 8x$8m extension is prudent for this team. So I would trade him personally. I think the return they would be looking for would involve young players that either already playing in the NHL or are on the cusp. 
 

I am not sure I see Columbus as a great trading partner, because I am not sure they can afford to move their young prospects and players.

 

I previously mentioned Minnesota as a team that makes a lot of sense, they are really lacking any sort of depth down the middle and could use a player to compliment Kaprizov.

 

I think Colorado is another team that could have interest in Lindholm. After going out in the first round, I think they will look to rebound. I think they were missing that number 2 center last year. They also have Landeskog who will be missing another season coming up. Compher is a UFA, so they could be without him or at the very least he will be looking for a hefty raise.

 

Boston is a team that is going to really interesting. Great regular season, disappointing playoffs. Are Bergeron and Krejci coming back? They are a team that I could see having serious interest in Lindholm and Hanifin. Problem is they have next to no prospect capital and because of that go willing are they to

give up picks.

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

The problem with this suggestion of trading Lindholm for 3rd overall is that it has Lindholm signing an extension which he can’t do before July 1st. I can’t see Columbus trading 3rd overall with no guarantee that Lindholm will sign an extension.

 

I am a big fan of Lindholm, but I don’t think signing him to an 8x$8m extension is prudent for this team. So I would trade him personally. I think the return they would be looking for would involve young players that either already playing in the NHL or are on the cusp. 
 

I am not sure I see Columbus as a great trading partner, because I am not sure they can afford to move their young prospects and players.

 

I previously mentioned Minnesota as a team that makes a lot of sense, they are really lacking any sort of depth down the middle and could use a player to compliment Kaprizov.

 

I think Colorado is another team that could have interest in Lindholm. After going out in the first round, I think they will look to rebound. I think they were missing that number 2 center last year. They also have Landeskog who will be missing another season coming up. Compher is a UFA, so they could be without him or at the very least he will be looking for a hefty raise.

 

Boston is a team that is going to really interesting. Great regular season, disappointing playoffs. Are Bergeron and Krejci coming back? They are a team that I could see having serious interest in Lindholm and Hanifin. Problem is they have next to no prospect capital and because of that go willing are they to

give up picks.

Boston has 1 pick in the top 2 rounds for the next 3 years, not each year total.  So they don't look like a partner at all.

[The_People1]

If we trade Lindholm for picks/prospects then we can kiss the playoffs goodbye.  There's no way.  Simply, we were barely able to compete with average Centers this past season and now to lose our best... Kadri + Backlund going to drag us into the playoffs again?  Dream on.  It's total rebuild time if Lindholm is traded unless we trade for someone else in their prime.

[JTech780]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

If we trade Lindholm for picks/prospects then we can kiss the playoffs goodbye.  There's no way.  Simply, we were barely able to compete with average Centers this past season and now to lose our best... Kadri + Backlund going to drag us into the playoffs again?  Dream on.  It's total rebuild time if Lindholm is traded unless we trade for someone else in their prime.

Depends on the return. If you can get a Newhook + from Colorado, I think we can stay competitive. Can Colorado afford to pay Byram this year with all the defense they are currently paying?

 

I think missing the playoffs had more to do with coaching and team morale/chemistry being non existent. The team on paper should have been competing for the division title.

 

Conroy mentioned that they need to get younger and I think that they will look for younger players who are ready to step into the lineup in trades.

 

Do the Rangers look for more help up front? Would they move a Chytil?

 

 

[The_People1]

16 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Depends on the return. If you can get a Newhook + from Colorado, I think we can stay competitive. Can Colorado afford to pay Byram this year with all the defense they are currently paying?

 

I think missing the playoffs had more to do with coaching and team morale/chemistry being non existent. The team on paper should have been competing for the division title.

 

Conroy mentioned that they need to get younger and I think that they will look for younger players who are ready to step into the lineup in trades.

 

Do the Rangers look for more help up front? Would they move a Chytil?

 

 

 

On paper... we are so average.  Sutter took an average team to a miracle season.  And then things went back to normal.

 

On paper, we have three 2nd lines and five 2nd pairing D... Huberdeau was supposed to be elite but it's not happening.  Lindholm went back to 65-points after not having Johnny/Tkachuk pump his stats.  We are just so average all around.

 

And our goaltending is totally lost.  Tampering my expectations of Wolf.  I'm not expecting a rookie goalie to come in first year and dominate the NHL like we need.

[JTech780]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

On paper... we are so average.  Sutter took an average team to a miracle season.  And then things went back to normal.

 

On paper, we have three 2nd lines and five 2nd pairing D... Huberdeau was supposed to be elite but it's not happening.  Lindholm went back to 65-points after not having Johnny/Tkachuk pump his stats.  We are just so average all around.

 

And our goaltending is totally lost.  Tampering my expectations of Wolf.  I'm not expecting a rookie goalie to come in first year and dominate the NHL like we need.

I don’t agree with that assessment. Huberdeau is an elite offensive player, who Sutter managed to totally handcuff and limit his effectiveness. Weegar is another player that will take a massive jump after getting away from Sutter. Weegar is an elite defenseman. Andersson is also an elite defender and is looking like a bonafide number 1.

 

Kadri is best served as a number 2, but again in the right situation he will be just fine.

 

I do see a situation where they sign Lindholm to an extension and he stays, it just has to be the right deal. If they don’t have an extension in place I believe they will trade him. Conroy has mentioned multiple times that asset management is the key to success here, and that they can’t have another Gaudreau situation where they walk guys to free agency. He also said that he wants guys that want to be here and if they don’t want to be here he will try and make it happen.

[sak22]

 

Don't want to read too much into a Twitter banner, just when the top scorer, top center and a top defenseman who have already generated a lot of fan speculation, along with the goalie most likely to be moved, are left off its only going to increase the speculation.

[JTech780]

1 minute ago, sak22 said:

 

Don't want to read too much into a Twitter banner, just when the top scorer, top center and a top defenseman who have already generated a lot of fan speculation, along with the goalie most likely to be moved, are left off its only going to increase the speculation.

Yeah it’s an interesting banner for sure. No Toffoli, Lindholm, Hanifin, Dube, or Mangiapane.

 

Aslo Wolf is on there but not Vladar.

 

Backlund and Zadorov are on there as upcoming UFA’s.

 

 

[The_People1]

 

48 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

Don't want to read too much into a Twitter banner, just when the top scorer, top center and a top defenseman who have already generated a lot of fan speculation, along with the goalie most likely to be moved, are left off its only going to increase the speculation.

 

Who is next?  I think Hanifin for sure...

 

[The_People1]

49 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Yeah it’s an interesting banner for sure. No Toffoli, Lindholm, Hanifin, Dube, or Mangiapane.

 

Aslo Wolf is on there but not Vladar.

 

Backlund and Zadorov are on there as upcoming UFA’s.

 

I'm okay moving all 5 of those players.  And all 5 should be decently easy to move and give us good returns.

 

Dube and Mange could be replaced by Pelletier.  And it also helps move Huberdeau back to LW and fix the politics with Huberdeau.

 

Toffoli coming off a career year should help us fetch something decent.  RHS RW after all are hard to come by.  We shouldn't commit to Toffoli long term and he's probably looking to cash in on a final contract of his career.  Let another team finance his retirement.

 

Hanifin we've already talked about.  Kylington could replace Hanifin.

 

Lindholm is the key.  We need him in order to make the playoffs next season.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I don’t agree with that assessment. Huberdeau is an elite offensive player, who Sutter managed to totally handcuff and limit his effectiveness. Weegar is another player that will take a massive jump after getting away from Sutter. Weegar is an elite defenseman. Andersson is also an elite defender and is looking like a bonafide number 1.

 

Kadri is best served as a number 2, but again in the right situation he will be just fine.

 

I do see a situation where they sign Lindholm to an extension and he stays, it just has to be the right deal. If they don’t have an extension in place I believe they will trade him. Conroy has mentioned multiple times that asset management is the key to success here, and that they can’t have another Gaudreau situation where they walk guys to free agency. He also said that he wants guys that want to be here and if they don’t want to be here he will try and make it happen.

 

I agree with the assessment.  Kadri was great with Nichushkin.  We tried him with a multitude of LW's with Huberdeau on RW.  There was a point in the season where he was producing a lot more.  Closer to a p/gp.  I just don't think the fit was right with his line.

 

Maybe his decision rests with the coach and off-season moves, but I think he will let CM know in advance of the draft if he wants to move.  Other than coaching, there is nothing that has been done against Lindholm.  Hard to blame the team for Tkachuk and Gaudreau wanting out.  

[travel_dude]

Here's a crazy thought.  Sign Monahan to a short term deal and move Backlund.  Using Backlund, we can target a D.  Using Hanifin, we can target a winger.  As a 3C, Monahan gives you a decent player.  The short term deal is due to his injury history.