Matthew Coronato

[zima]

Of Course

[conundrumed]

59 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

When NY got 1st overall, they jumped from 14th overall to 1st.

They changed it last year to only jumping a max of 10 spots.

The year before the NYR jumped from 6th to 2nd oa. Some teams have all the luck I guess. Choke on Lafreniere and Kakko golden childs.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

The year before the NYR jumped from 6th to 2nd oa. Some teams have all the luck I guess. Choke on Lafreniere and Kakko golden childs.

 

They keep changing when they see teams rewarded multiple times (ie the Oilers rule).

Some Stats & Probability expert could probably figure out how the lotto ball drop is designed to benefit teams.

It always seemed hokey to me.

 

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

They keep changing when they see teams rewarded multiple times (ie the Oilers rule).

Some Stats & Probability expert could probably figure out how the lotto ball drop is designed to benefit teams.

It always seemed hokey to me.

 

 

0i got a spare tinfoil hat if you're interested.

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

0i got a spare tinfoil hat if you're interested.

 

Look, I have always been one to question random number generation through the use of ball drops.

Have you ever watched a Lotto 649 draw?

The balls are loaded 1-49 in non-random order.  

So, the random part is how the ball tumble and end up in the ball collector.

If you drop the balls into the drum for the NHL lotto in that kind of non-random order, they have the same effect.

 

The NHL (if the process has not changed) is that random number combos are generated for each non-playoff team.

The balls are dropped into the machine and 4 balls come up.  The combo points to a team with that same combo.

So, that is perhaps more rando than 6/49.

The numbered balls drop in the order they are numbered though.

Probably why simulators come up with the same #1 overall on successive mock runs.

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

The year before the NYR jumped from 6th to 2nd oa. Some teams have all the luck I guess. Choke on Lafreniere and Kakko golden childs.

 

I think I might have missed something.

I understand that there is also a draw for #2 overall.

 

[The_People1]

9 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Think this is really making a mountain out of a molehill. 

 

why do it now? leverage. The Flames leverage in all of this was they can offer him something no other team can, and that was to sign him this year so he can burn the year and start the clock on his 2nd contract. If they didn't do that now they lose really the only leverage they had. I think this year was key because you wait until next spring  your 1 year clsoer to him being a UFA. Now only does that give ideas, your really reduce your own leverage. Had Coronato turned them down this spring then I think a trade as an option but that leverage is greatly reduced by this time next year. 

AHL>>>>>NCAA in terms of his development (especially in the div Harvard plays in). This is furthering his development not wasting his time. 

Coronato wins in all this too. He just got a signing bonus and he essentially just got a free year of service time. So now he is off his ELC 1 year earlier so he is 1 year closer to earning more real money and he got to do it while being in college. Bit of a win/win for him. 

 

I'm not even suggesting he needs to go to the A. I personally think he does but we'll see but I think this discussion is just getting so far ahead of where we actually are. ELC are pretty much always just procedural and I don't think there is much to look into other than that. 

 

This indeed comes down to leverage vs leverage.  Remember when BT "leveraged" Gaudreau and Tkachuk to the 11th hour before the start of the season?  Ya, they forgive but they don't forget.

 

Coronato is giving up his leverage of going UFA after two years.  How are we going to treat him?  AHL money is not the same as NHL money.  A full year of AHL then Coronato may as well have played out his college years and go elsewhere.  NCAA didn't hurt Adam Fox's development one bit.

 

I think Coronato has to at least start next season on the big club to honour a "handshake."  If he doesn't live up to expectations then circumstances changed and Coronato should accept AHL development after that.

 

I'm just saying, you sign a college kid who has leverage and gave it up only to stuff him in the AHL all year, then this relationship is not getting started on the right foot.

[Thebrewcrew]

People forget, but Gaudreau was almost sent to the AHL. He struggled in the early part of 14/15, got scratched. Ironically, in Columbus. He got back in the next game and never looked back. Hartley was open about it though, there was real consideration to send him to Stockton.

 

I don't think Coronato is any different. Gaudreau was the superior college player, but Coronato is bigger. I think he will have a chance to make the team in camp. If not, it's not the end of the world.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

This indeed comes down to leverage vs leverage.  Remember when BT "leveraged" Gaudreau and Tkachuk to the 11th hour before the start of the season?  Ya, they forgive but they don't forget.

 

Coronato is giving up his leverage of going UFA after two years.  How are we going to treat him?  AHL money is not the same as NHL money.  A full year of AHL then Coronato may as well have played out his college years and go elsewhere.  NCAA didn't hurt Adam Fox's development one bit.

 

I think Coronato has to at least start next season on the big club to honour a "handshake."  If he doesn't live up to expectations then circumstances changed and Coronato should accept AHL development after that.

 

I'm just saying, you sign a college kid who has leverage and gave it up only to stuff him in the AHL all year, then this relationship is not getting started on the right foot.

 

Did Gaudreau leave because he was dissed by BT last contract?  I doubt that.

Tkachuk maybe.  But I was thinking about when Matty went boat shopping with Walt and Brady.

That seems a little fishy, forgive the pun.

I don't really trust anything Tkachuk has said about the trade situation.

The high dollar QO short term contract was a ploy.

 

Saying all that, Coronato doesn't seem to be cut from the same stalk as MT.

More like JG, who wanted to prove himself.

Sutter is going to keep him out of the lineup as long as he can.

It's not about penalizing him, it about what has he done to earn the chance.

The vets have been here all year kid.  Whatever your name is.

I'll put you in if we are 10 up or 10 down.

Or Lewis or Lucic have an owie.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Look, I have always been one to question random number generation through the use of ball drops.

Have you ever watched a Lotto 649 draw?

The balls are loaded 1-49 in non-random order.  

So, the random part is how the ball tumble and end up in the ball collector.

If you drop the balls into the drum for the NHL lotto in that kind of non-random order, they have the same effect.

 

The NHL (if the process has not changed) is that random number combos are generated for each non-playoff team.

The balls are dropped into the machine and 4 balls come up.  The combo points to a team with that same combo.

So, that is perhaps more rando than 6/49.

The numbered balls drop in the order they are numbered though.

Probably why simulators come up with the same #1 overall on successive mock runs.

I still agree with you about the "hokey" aspect of it. Maybe now with the newer system its more transparent but but I'm still putting my $$ on the Habs or the Jackets getting it.

[jjgallow]

14 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Zary and Pelletier say hi.

A better statement would have been "Flames love to showcase their top 10 picks rather than develop them".

Most if not all teams do, especially top 5.

Some of the players choose to go to college for a year instead of NHL right out of the draft.

Or they stay in Europe for many reasons, contract or otherwise.

 

Difficult to compare F in the NCAA.

Gaudreau was nothing special in his first two NCAA years.

 

Agreed lol.

 

And Sutter says hi.

 

 

On Gaudreau being nothing special...I would sort of agree on his first year, although I would say it's special given his size then that he survived.    

Thing is, Gaudreau got 3 full College years.  Had he come to the Flames after his first year, which is what's being proposed with Coronato, things would not have gone well.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Agreed lol.

 

And Sutter says hi.

 

 

On Gaudreau being nothing special...I would sort of agree on his first year, although I would say it's special given his size then that he survived.    

Thing is, Gaudreau got 3 full College years.  Had he come to the Flames after his first year, which is what's being proposed with Coronato, things would not have gone well.

 

 

Well, Cor has 2 years of college, so there's that.

Make no mistake, Gaudreau was a special player from the USHL days.

It was more how his game was going to reacj the NHL.

 

But anyway, I was just comparing the two because of some of the negativity for Cor's stats.

They are nothing super, but also nothing to sneer at.

Holloway was probably similar in count, but I never though he was anything.

I've seen a couple of games with Cor.

I think he has a little improvement to make, but he has the sense for the net.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Well, Cor has 2 years of college, so there's that.

Make no mistake, Gaudreau was a special player from the USHL days.

It was more how his game was going to reacj the NHL.

 

But anyway, I was just comparing the two because of some of the negativity for Cor's stats.

They are nothing super, but also nothing to sneer at.

Holloway was probably similar in count, but I never though he was anything.

I've seen a couple of games with Cor.

I think he has a little improvement to make, but he has the sense for the net.

 

no doubt about it, he's a sniper.   but all the more reason or him to season in the ahl imho.  If that's what we want him to develop

[conundrumed]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

no doubt about it, he's a sniper.   but all the more reason or him to season the ahl imho.  If that's what we want him to develop

He hasn't set foot on the ice yet, so too early to tell. Can't have takeaways from Harvard, they weren't a great team. Even JG had really good linemates. MC, not so much. His goals were generally just him creating the chances.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

He hasn't set foot on the ice yet, so too early to tell. Can't have takeaways from Harvard, they weren't a great team. Even JG had really good linemates. MC, not so much. His goals were generally just him creating the chances.

 

I hear you and understand you about the stats/reality thing.   Again though, if we want him to have good linemates all the more reason to keep him in the AHL.  He's not going to get good linemates up here cough cough.

 

Two prospect truths:

1.  Can't go just by numbers (I hear you)

2.  You need a reason to skip a development step.   Not a reason to let them develop normally.

 

 

[cross16]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

This indeed comes down to leverage vs leverage.  Remember when BT "leveraged" Gaudreau and Tkachuk to the 11th hour before the start of the season?  Ya, they forgive but they don't forget.

 

Coronato is giving up his leverage of going UFA after two years.  How are we going to treat him?  AHL money is not the same as NHL money.  A full year of AHL then Coronato may as well have played out his college years and go elsewhere.  NCAA didn't hurt Adam Fox's development one bit.

 

I think Coronato has to at least start next season on the big club to honour a "handshake."  If he doesn't live up to expectations then circumstances changed and Coronato should accept AHL development after that.

 

I'm just saying, you sign a college kid who has leverage and gave it up only to stuff him in the AHL all year, then this relationship is not getting started on the right foot.

 

Beyond silly that this is a thing. We honestly think that Gaudreau played 6 years, played through multiple coaches, engaged in extension talks, had a career year, then engaged in extension talks again all the while secretly plotting to get back at the Flames? The same guy who signed in Columbus for 7 years because he misplayed the market? This is tinfoil hat stuff. 

 

I just think this is all getting way, way ahead of ourselves and this process is more procedural. Contract's signed, he's in the organization and how he's really no different than a Pelletier, Zary, Wolf or any other player who had to earn their way onto the club. Do what is right for his development and if that includes the A then so be it, and it shouldn't be viewed negatively.

 

End of the day let's not overrate the prospect/player just because he's a good news story in a crap season. 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

He hasn't set foot on the ice yet, so too early to tell. Can't have takeaways from Harvard, they weren't a great team. Even JG had really good linemates. MC, not so much. His goals were generally just him creating the chances.

what I want to know is, does he at least have a little bit of speed or are we talking yet another prospect that isn't very fleet of foot? Will he stop going to the net once he realizes how hard it is to get there? Etc.

 

playing center might suggest he has enough smarts and at least a  little bit of speed

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Beyond silly that this is a thing. We honestly think that Gaudreau played 6 years, played through multiple coaches, engaged in extension talks, had a career year, then engaged in extension talks again all the while secretly plotting to get back at the Flames? The same guy who signed in Columbus for 7 years because he misplayed the market? This is tinfoil hat stuff. 

 

I just think this is all getting way, way ahead of ourselves and this process is more procedural. Contract's signed, he's in the organization and how he's really no different than a Pelletier, Zary, Wolf or any other player who had to earn their way onto the club. Do what is right for his development and if that includes the A then so be it, and it shouldn't be viewed negatively.

 

End of the day let's not overrate the prospect/player just because he's a good news story in a crap season. 

it's odd that the rules allow him to play in the NHL playoffs but not the AHL playoffs. 

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

it's odd that the rules allow him to play in the NHL playoffs but not the AHL playoffs. 

 

There is a cutoff for the AHL playoffs.  I believe that the new signings for the AHL team don't allow them to be in the playoffs.  It's regular season depth, to allow them to sit Wolf, etc.  We had to assign Pelletier and Duehr there to allow them to go back down for the playoffs.  Really the NHL playoffs is not the issue, it's playing in the NHL.  You have to sign an ATC to play in the AHL, but can't also play a NHL game.

 

That's my take.  I know Cross has a good handle on it.  

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

what I want to know is, does he at least have a little bit of speed or are we talking yet another prospect that isn't very fleet of foot? Will he stop going to the net once he realizes how hard it is to get there? Etc.

 

playing center might suggest he has enough smarts and at least a  little bit of speed

 

There is an adjustment from one league to the next.  I think the speed is less of a factor myself.  I see the NHL as a place that you don't have time and space to make decisions.  You get hit if you hold the puck or you have to move.  Gaudreau was able to transition because of his edges, not so much his skating speed.  He got out of situations.  Smaller players tend to be harder to hit because of the lower center of gravity and how they learned the game.  IMHO, Phillips plays too much like a bigger F.  Coronato is thicker, so maybe more like a Debrincat.  Have to see him at the NHL level to really know how he compares.

 

Anyway, excited to see him get a NHL game in.  He will find it to be a blur, but instincts should kick in and he should be fine.

[robrob74]

25 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

There is a cutoff for the AHL playoffs.  I believe that the new signings for the AHL team don't allow them to be in the playoffs.  It's regular season depth, to allow them to sit Wolf, etc.  We had to assign Pelletier and Duehr there to allow them to go back down for the playoffs.  Really the NHL playoffs is not the issue, it's playing in the NHL.  You have to sign an ATC to play in the AHL, but can't also play a NHL game.

 

That's my take.  I know Cross has a good handle on it.  

i get the rules, I just don't see reasons behind it. I think it should be allowable that as long as you own the rights to a prospect that they be allowed to play in either league. 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i get the rules, I just don't see reasons behind it. I think it should be allowable that as long as you own the rights to a prospect that they be allowed to play in either league. 

 

I think the AHL doesn't like teams sending their NHL players to flood the teams.  In other words buying a Calder Cup.

There was a cutoff for that very reason, since the AHL playoffs start at roughly the same time.

 

 

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

what I want to know is, does he at least have a little bit of speed or are we talking yet another prospect that isn't very fleet of foot? Will he stop going to the net once he realizes how hard it is to get there? Etc.

 

playing center might suggest he has enough smarts and at least a  little bit of speed

 

Think Elias Lindholm is a good comp for Coronato. Not a burner but has no problem getting around the ice.  No need to be concerned about his skating IMO. 

 

I have no doubts people are going to like Coronato, he's tough not to like. Hight floor to his game, he impacts all areas, he's intelligent, feisty, and plays well above his size. He'll remind people a lot like Mang in that way. 

 

 

[conundrumed]

49 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Think Elias Lindholm is a good comp for Coronato. Not a burner but has no problem getting around the ice.  No need to be concerned about his skating IMO. 

 

I have no doubts people are going to like Coronato, he's tough not to like. Hight floor to his game, he impacts all areas, he's intelligent, feisty, and plays well above his size. He'll remind people a lot like Mang in that way. 

 

 

I'll agree on the good skater and add he goes hard to the net, has a good shot and even better releases. His D play is above average for a scorer.

He's played some C, but he's a winger.

I've seen some conversations about him playing C, but that was circumstantial. He's not a C.

[travel_dude]

36 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'll agree on the good skater and add he goes hard to the net, has a good shot and even better releases. His D play is above average for a scorer.

He's played some C, but he's a winger.

I've seen some conversations about him playing C, but that was circumstantial. He's not a C.

 

I think we went after him because he was a winger.  We need C's but also need RHS wingers.