GDT Sharks @ Flames Mar 25. 2pm Start

[conundrumed]

10 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

You either win the Cup or you win the 1st overall pick.  There's not much else to celebrate in between. 

 

Most teams go 7 years without the playoffs because they didn't truly start their rebuild until they missed it 3rd year in a row.  The rebuild came to them when it didn't have to be like that.  The Flames right now should sell assets to accelerate their rebuild while they have the assets to sell.  Get more young pieces and picks right now.  Otherwise it's going to be 7+ years of rebuilding.

Really? It's not because 31 other teams have plans, and half of them might be better/luckier than yours?

The possibility of 5 years in the toilet to be exactly where you are right now is real. For each success, there are multiple failures that get ignored.

A full rebuild is a crapshoot if you come out better than where you're at.

Add in, no matter how bad your team looks, every player is still trying to win/keep a contract. They aren't going out to lose for you.

What if Wolf comes in and he's Vasilevsky? Now your constantly picking 10th. Do you let that go to waste? Does that help your rebuild plans?

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Really? It's not because 31 other teams have plans, and half of them might be better/luckier than yours?

The possibility of 5 years in the toilet to be exactly where you are right now is real. For each success, there are multiple failures that get ignored.

A full rebuild is a crapshoot if you come out better than where you're at.

Add in, no matter how bad your team looks, every player is still trying to win/keep a contract. They aren't going out to lose for you.

What if Wolf comes in and he's Vasilevsky? Now your constantly picking 10th. Do you let that go to waste? Does that help your rebuild plans?

I still think if the oilers were better at scouting past the first overall picks they'd have been in better shape, same goes with some of the other teams. 
 

look at Carolina, they hardly ever draft top Of the draft and are one of the better teams.

 

I still believe if we believe our scouting and drafting has gotten better that there is nothing to worry about. But if you don't believe that, then there is plenty to worry about.

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I still think if the oilers were better at scouting past the first overall picks they'd have been in better shape, same goes with some of the other teams. 
 

look at Carolina, they hardly ever draft top Of the draft and are one of the better teams.

 

I still believe if we believe our scouting and drafting has gotten better that there is nothing to worry about. But if you don't believe that, then there is plenty to worry about.

 

The Oilers?  Really?

If you look at their current NHL roster, they have 2 players drafted outside the 1st, one is a goalie the other is a 2nd.

The Oilers have long been bad at picking outside the 1st round.

Improving now, but they are still just prospects.

Some may never play a NHL game, even with suspect NHL depth.

 

Where I think we are lacking is graduating players to the NHL.

Just recently, because we seemed to be doing better up to this year.

Maybe quality of picks influenced that.

Have to be a top scoring AHL player in year2 or more to get a chance to play.

Some get a cup of coffee.

Some have been around for ages and will eventually just not get signed or sign.

A healthy roster and preference to use NHL vets over ability.

Valimaki and Mackey are just two examples of guys we never really bothered with.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I still think if the oilers were better at scouting past the first overall picks they'd have been in better shape, same goes with some of the other teams. 
 

look at Carolina, they hardly ever draft top Of the draft and are one of the better teams.

 

I still believe if we believe our scouting and drafting has gotten better that there is nothing to worry about. But if you don't believe that, then there is plenty to worry about.

I agree, I think our scouting has been really good. Unfortunately we've shed a lot of picks in the last few years so that route was somewhat negated.

[cross16]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You either win the Cup or you win the 1st overall pick.  There's not much else to celebrate in between. 

 

Most teams go 7 years without the playoffs because they didn't truly start their rebuild until they missed it 3rd year in a row.  The rebuild came to them when it didn't have to be like that.  The Flames right now should sell assets to accelerate their rebuild while they have the assets to sell.  Get more young pieces and picks right now.  Otherwise it's going to be 7+ years of rebuilding.

 

 

I understand that this is your opinion, and held by some others for sure, but I think there needs to be realism here. The VAST majority of fans do not feel that way. 

 

Not going to have a team for very long if you ignore that. 

[robrob74]

25 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The Oilers?  Really?

If you look at their current NHL roster, they have 2 players drafted outside the 1st, one is a goalie the other is a 2nd.

The Oilers have long been bad at picking outside the 1st round.

Improving now, but they are still just prospects.

Some may never play a NHL game, even with suspect NHL depth.

 

Where I think we are lacking is graduating players to the NHL.

Just recently, because we seemed to be doing better up to this year.

Maybe quality of picks influenced that.

Have to be a top scoring AHL player in year2 or more to get a chance to play.

Some get a cup of coffee.

Some have been around for ages and will eventually just not get signed or sign.

A healthy roster and preference to use NHL vets over ability.

Valimaki and Mackey are just two examples of guys we never really bothered with.

hehe

 

thats what I said, 

 

IF the oilers were better at scouting past the first round and drafting they'd have been better off earlier. So we are agreeing. 
 

ya. It's really hard to tell where we are at at the moment. Valamaki is a wasted pick due to what you just said. 

[travel_dude]

32 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

hehe

 

thats what I said, 

 

IF the oilers were better at scouting past the first round and drafting they'd have been better off earlier. So we are agreeing. 
 

ya. It's really hard to tell where we are at at the moment. Valamaki is a wasted pick due to what you just said. 

 

Sorry, my bad.  Missed the word.

[conundrumed]

Wow is it the new skin making this site slllloooowwww aaafffffk?

[The_People1]

10 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Really? It's not because 31 other teams have plans, and half of them might be better/luckier than yours?

The possibility of 5 years in the toilet to be exactly where you are right now is real. For each success, there are multiple failures that get ignored.

A full rebuild is a crapshoot if you come out better than where you're at.

Add in, no matter how bad your team looks, every player is still trying to win/keep a contract. They aren't going out to lose for you.

What if Wolf comes in and he's Vasilevsky? Now your constantly picking 10th. Do you let that go to waste? Does that help your rebuild plans?

 

Yes really.

 

5 years in the toilet and 5 years of what the Flames are doing right now is more or less the same thing.  Obviously, you want to see progression after a rebuild and that's the only time it's worth celebrating making the playoffs because it's a milestone reached in a rebuild.

 

Where the Flames are right now is the worst of the worst.  Don't have the high end elite players to win the Cup but not bad enough to draft one.  Totally stuck in the middle.

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I understand that this is your opinion, and held by some others for sure, but I think there needs to be realism here. The VAST majority of fans do not feel that way. 

 

Not going to have a team for very long if you ignore that. 

 

Where do you stand on this?

 

I mean, this sort of comes down to the casual fan vs the hardcore fan.  The hardcore will stay with the team through the ups and downs.  The casuals... Ya that's where the money is made unfortunately.  Instant gratification market base.

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes really.

 

5 years in the toilet and 5 years of what the Flames are doing right now is more or less the same thing.  Obviously, you want to see progression after a rebuild and that's the only time it's worth celebrating making the playoffs because it's a milestone reached in a rebuild.

 

Where the Flames are right now is the worst of the worst.  Don't have the high end elite players to win the Cup but not bad enough to draft one.  Totally stuck in the middle.

the team was starting to remind me of the Iginla days. And it's even worse this year. 

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Where do you stand on this?

 

I mean, this sort of comes down to the casual fan vs the hardcore fan.  The hardcore will stay with the team through the ups and downs.  The casuals... Ya that's where the money is made unfortunately.  Instant gratification market base.

Kevin Lowe has entered the chat.

[cross16]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Where do you stand on this?

 

I mean, this sort of comes down to the casual fan vs the hardcore fan.  The hardcore will stay with the team through the ups and downs.  The casuals... Ya that's where the money is made unfortunately.  Instant gratification market base.

 

In terms of rebuilds there are times they make sense. I can stomach rebuilds but I think they have to be more strategic then what gets sold on here. I think just pulling it apart and drafting is not a successful model, you have to look at the upcoming strength of drafts, you have to look at your finances, state of your franchise etc. 

 

For this club right now I think they missed their window and not i'm not sure a rebuild makes sense because I think even getting to the starting place of a rebuild (ie the studs) is going to be tough. Their long term deals would be tough to get out from under, they don't have a lot of young players and most of their tradable assets are 1 year away from UFA so you are not going to get the value you are looking for. I think your looking at a 2 year (maybe 3) process of just getting to the point where you can then start to accumulate assets. Maybe i'm wrong and you can still get value for the likes of Kadri/Huberdeau/Markstrom but i'm just really skeptical you can. I also don't see very strong drafts upcoming. 

 

I think this team is much better than they've shown and it's very likely they'll have a better year next year and be into the playoffs so I do think it's better to ride this out. Run with your 3-4 window here, make the playoffs probably more than you miss, maybe you hit on Wolf/Coronato and see what happens. At least by the end of it your too a point where they longer team deals become more movable and then you can look at a rebuild that perhaps isn't as long because you don't need as much work unwinding the team. 

 

A rebuild was attractive 1-2 seasons ago I just don't think it is now, mostly because I think the period of time the Flames would spend in the mushy middle, and then the bottom is much longer than under normal circumstances. All of that to wind up building a team that is no guarantees to be better than what they are right now. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

In terms of rebuilds there are times they make sense. I can stomach rebuilds but I think they have to be more strategic then what gets sold on here. I think just pulling it apart and drafting is not a successful model, you have to look at the upcoming strength of drafts, you have to look at your finances, state of your franchise etc. 

 

For this club right now I think they missed their window and not i'm not sure a rebuild makes sense because I think even getting to the starting place of a rebuild (ie the studs) is going to be tough. Their long term deals would be tough to get out from under, they don't have a lot of young players and most of their tradable assets are 1 year away from UFA so you are not going to get the value you are looking for. I think your looking at a 2 year (maybe 3) process of just getting to the point where you can then start to accumulate assets. Maybe i'm wrong and you can still get value for the likes of Kadri/Huberdeau/Markstrom but i'm just really skeptical you can. I also don't see very strong drafts upcoming. 

 

I think this team is much better than they've shown and it's very likely they'll have a better year next year and be into the playoffs so I do think it's better to ride this out. Run with your 3-4 window here, make the playoffs probably more than you miss, maybe you hit on Wolf/Coronato and see what happens. At least by the end of it your too a point where they longer team deals become more movable and then you can look at a rebuild that perhaps isn't as long because you don't need as much work unwinding the team. 

 

A rebuild was attractive 1-2 seasons ago I just don't think it is now, mostly because I think the period of time the Flames would spend in the mushy middle, and then the bottom is much longer than under normal circumstances. All of that to wind up building a team that is no guarantees to be better than what they are right now. 

what I see is the Flames inability to get picks for players to add to what they already have, an unwillingness to part with some and make hard decisions for a future. I don't see a rebuild in any future until it will be required in 4-5 years like you said, ride it out. I think they'll always be a middling team and it is unfortunate because many of the fans of this team deserve more. Not speaking about me. I spend $200.00 a year to watch them on tv, whereas some fans  spend thousands on season tickets and had to watch this product this year and hopefully not the same product style of play next...

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

what I see is the Flames inability to get picks for players to add to what they already have, an unwillingness to part with some and make hard decisions for a future. I don't see a rebuild in any future until it will be required in 4-5 years like you said, ride it out. I think they'll always be a middling team and it is unfortunate because many of the fans of this team deserve more. Not speaking about me. I spend $200.00 a year to watch them on tv, whereas some fans  spend thousands on season tickets and had to watch this product this year and hopefully not the same product style of play next...

 

I applaud you for spending the money to watch.  Saying that, it's not something enjoyable.  The inability stems from seeing the current as being sustainable.  We all know it isn't.  Winning teams make the hard choices and move on.  We define a core based on fond memories.  I am okay with including Hubie, Weegs, and Kadri in the new core, since they bring things we need.  Also Ras and Lindholm.  Beyond that, each player should have a best before date.  And each change we make has to take into account what we are trying to achieve.  No point in just trading for picks.  Think about prospects (scout them) and other players that bring other things to the game.  Also, how do we use what we have on the farm.  

 

We have to stop with this idea that we have to have a beefy player throughout the lineup.  Or have a 4th line that has little offense and is just there to physically wear down the other team by hitting them over and over.  Give me 3 Duehr's over what we currently have.  

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

In terms of rebuilds there are times they make sense. I can stomach rebuilds but I think they have to be more strategic then what gets sold on here. I think just pulling it apart and drafting is not a successful model, you have to look at the upcoming strength of drafts, you have to look at your finances, state of your franchise etc. 

 

For this club right now I think they missed their window and not i'm not sure a rebuild makes sense because I think even getting to the starting place of a rebuild (ie the studs) is going to be tough. Their long term deals would be tough to get out from under, they don't have a lot of young players and most of their tradable assets are 1 year away from UFA so you are not going to get the value you are looking for. I think your looking at a 2 year (maybe 3) process of just getting to the point where you can then start to accumulate assets. Maybe i'm wrong and you can still get value for the likes of Kadri/Huberdeau/Markstrom but i'm just really skeptical you can. I also don't see very strong drafts upcoming. 

 

I think this team is much better than they've shown and it's very likely they'll have a better year next year and be into the playoffs so I do think it's better to ride this out. Run with your 3-4 window here, make the playoffs probably more than you miss, maybe you hit on Wolf/Coronato and see what happens. At least by the end of it your too a point where they longer team deals become more movable and then you can look at a rebuild that perhaps isn't as long because you don't need as much work unwinding the team. 

 

A rebuild was attractive 1-2 seasons ago I just don't think it is now, mostly because I think the period of time the Flames would spend in the mushy middle, and then the bottom is much longer than under normal circumstances. All of that to wind up building a team that is no guarantees to be better than what they are right now. 

 

I think it's really unfortunate that most rebuilds don't begin until a team has missed the playoffs 2-3 years in a row and then fans get really angry.  That's when ownership finally approves a full blown rebuild plan and the team embarks on a 4-5 year basement run... Making it a total of 7-8 years removed from the playoffs when it didn't have to be like that.

 

I agree that this team can bounce back next season.

 

1. Sutter has these "1 year hot and 1 year not" cycles.  Just look at the King's Cup runs.  Next year will be a good one again.

2. I don't think Huberdeau will ever get 100-points again, even 90-points is tough... But I do think he's talented enough to be a 75-85-point player.  He is settled in now and I'm sure he will spend the summer to reflect and adjust.  Maybe he hits it off with Coronato or Lindholm or something next season.

3. We've got so many contract-year players next season. This all points to career years.  I imagine Lindholm will get back to 40-goals because he will be a bit more selfish next season and shoot more.  He needs the numbers. Backlund, Toffoli, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, etc, are all looking to sign their final contracts of their careers.  And Dube going RFA. They need a big year to get the big bucks.  All will be self-motivated.

4.  Markstrom is a question mark but Wolf is a very good insurance if Markstrom cannot bounce back.  Markstrom has allowed maybe 30 totally easy goals this season and all we need for him to do is bring that number down to 10.  That should be doable.  Really not asking for a lot here.

 

I think we will be playoff bound next season... at least, there are many reasons to believe so.  I imagine that's the route ownership is going to take as well.  I'm personally disappointed because there's no reason to believe next year is a Cup winning team.  It's only a playoff team capable of one or two rounds.  I would rather we turn the UFA assets over for picks and prospects to accelerate the rebuild.

 

And in regards to timing, I've heard next year's draft is even better than this year.. no phenom like Bedard but it sounds deep in general.