Prospecting for Gold

[conundrumed]

Thought maybe development could use it's own thread.

I can't locate a handy list of development staff unfortunately, it's a bit of a drill.

As for scouting, it looks pretty thin.

Head of Amateur Scouting: Tod Button

Amateur Scouts: Jim Cummins (USHL), Terry Doran (Sarnia boy!!) (OHL), Ari Haanpaa (Europe), Bobbie Hagelin (Europe), Bob MacMillan (QMJHL),Allister MacNeil, Eric Soltys (New England), Reid Jackson, Robert Neuhauser, Billy Powers, Darren Kruger, Patrick Lachance

Maybe I'm missing something, but that is razor thin. Do they all have underlings?

Midgets need to be scouted heavily, that's where you meet the parents...

 

At any rate, our development is on par with everyone else's. So much is reliant on the individual player that misses are more frequent than hits, by a lot.

I believe we currently have 3 prospects that I have full confidence in:

Wolf

Pelletier

Coronato (though it's early)

It's the next tier that worries me:

Zary

Kerins

Pospisil

Stromgren - NEEDS to be full-time SHL this year or it's over

Valimaki

Kuznetsov

Poirier

I we can bat 50% here I'll be ecstatic.

If we could eliminate the need for UFA and TDL acquisitions that would be a huge step in carving the path forward.

For me, there is nothing more depressing than the revolving door of throwing picks to address immediate concerns. The "win now" mentality certainly, by now, must be outted as being incredibly shot-sighted. TDL and draft floor moves for immediate fixes have had the opposite effect of longterm pain with little immediate gain.

I hope beyong hope we've finally learned that.

What would you say if you were an amateur scout with picks flying out the door? I don't think I'd be nice about it.

Just wondering everyone's thoughts, everyone here has been watching this for years so I respect everyone's take on our drafting, development and hopefulness.

[cross16]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Thought maybe development could use it's own thread.

I can't locate a handy list of development staff unfortunately, it's a bit of a drill.

As for scouting, it looks pretty thin.

Head of Amateur Scouting: Tod Button

Amateur Scouts: Jim Cummins (USHL), Terry Doran (Sarnia boy!!) (OHL), Ari Haanpaa (Europe), Bobbie Hagelin (Europe), Bob MacMillan (QMJHL),Allister MacNeil, Eric Soltys (New England), Reid Jackson, Robert Neuhauser, Billy Powers, Darren Kruger, Patrick Lachance

Maybe I'm missing something, but that is razor thin. Do they all have underlings?

Midgets need to be scouted heavily, that's where you meet the parents...

 

 

 

 

You are missing quite a few. Flames page has 16 scouts including both Fred Parker and Rob Sumner as asst Directors of Scouting. Hagelin and MacMillan both retired I believe and Jackson and Soltys both left/were let go.  https://flamesnation.ca/2021/10/14/flames-add-some-new-faces-in-hockey-operations/

Steve Pleau is a pro scout but I still count 12 amateur scouts and then the 3 directors. What do you mean by thin because that seems to be on par, if not more, than most of the league.  All do (at least is my understanding) have underlying areas that they are responsible for. 

 

Also worth pointing our Ray Edwards as director of player development and Gelinas as player development coach. Also (assuming they hire a new NHL goalie coach as they likely will) they have 3 goalie coaches and part of going to that model was more hands on development.  https://www.nhl.com/flames/team/hockey-operations

 

I think since Treliving and co came on board the Flames development has been good to very good and I think for the first time since probably the 90s you are seeing a consistent and steady pipeline of young players becoming Flames.  I think there is some small room for improvement, in particular I think they could use another 1 or 2 European focused scouts that live over there (I believe it's 2 right now but i'd have 4), but at the same time they have some scouting success over there too so the model isn't not working. 

 

I think the last point is bang on. The concern with the pipeline being thin I think has far less to do with the fact that there scouting/developing isn't working and far more to do with the lack of picks. From 2017 to 2019 they averaged 5 picks a draft with no 2nd in that time span and only 1 3rd. That is why it's pretty thin right now but thankfully they do scout and develop well because even though they've been lacking in picks I still think their prospect pool isn't that close to the bottom of the league where it really should be, based on the amount of picks. 

 

Edit: I'd also add Beck to that list. World Junior invite this summer. Of course no sure thing but I think he belongs on the legit prospect list. 

 

 

[cross16]

Edit: Whoops. Double post

 

[bosn111]

I think Kuznetsov is most likely in the same category as Wolf, Pelletier and Coronato as far as likely to make the NHL. The difference being the likely hood that he is more of a defensive bottom 4 D man than a top pair. This is not a knock on him, just more his style.

 

Personally I think player development has improved over the past 5 years and it shows with the number of drafted players playing for the Flames who were not top picks and have worked their way up through the system in recent years compared to previous years.

 

Andersson and Kylington both drafted 2nd round, spent time developing with the Heat, now making impacts on the big club. Mangiapane was a 6 round pick with time in the AHL, significant impact at fwd. 

 

With Ruzicka (4 round pick) knocking on the door, and other prospects named in this thread likely still a couple of years away, the development path looks good. 
 

I think Phillips is stuck without a real shot due to size, but who knows. 
 

Zadorov, Tanev, Hanifin and Kylington are all up for contracts in 2 years. That is likely where we see Kuznetsov and/or Poirier step up. Solovyov also has a shot at bottom pair in a few years.

 

While development is not top in the league, I agree that it is more due to a low number of draft picks, not quality of staff.

[conundrumed]

Ah yes I did forget about Jack Beck. Interested if he'll be with the Wranglers (gotta get used to not Heat lol) or back to the O. It's heartbreaking seeing kids miss key dev time, especially right after covid shut down the O. It can be a dream killer.

Solovyov is interesting as well, as is Nikolayev.

I also forgot Cole Schwindt who could quite possibly be in the top group.

Wake up at 4:30am and post this I may have been a little groggy.

 

I do hope Phillips gets an actual chance this year. Otherwise maybe move him to Chicago where he can have a better shot. I'm not sure there is much else he can do.

Damn it's exciting to have them in Calgary, you guys are lucky. It will make this section far more interesting with actual live viewers.

[sak22]

19 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Ah yes I did forget about Jack Beck. Interested if he'll be with the Wranglers (gotta get used to not Heat lol) or back to the O. It's heartbreaking seeing kids miss key dev time, especially right after covid shut down the O. It can be a dream killer.

Solovyov is interesting as well, as is Nikolayev.

I also forgot Cole Schwindt who could quite possibly be in the top group.

Wake up at 4:30am and post this I may have been a little groggy.

 

I do hope Phillips gets an actual chance this year. Otherwise maybe move him to Chicago where he can have a better shot. I'm not sure there is much else he can do.

Damn it's exciting to have them in Calgary, you guys are lucky. It will make this section far more interesting with actual live viewers.

I think he only turned 19 in April, so he's still fine in the O.  Also not signed (some reason I thought he did).  

 

I don't know how many regulars here are actually in Calgary.  I plan on checking out a game or 2, will see if the Flames offer any STH perks for them, but if the Flames do another mad bump in their ticket prices after this season I may have to consider switching over.

[cross16]

37 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Ah yes I did forget about Jack Beck. Interested if he'll be with the Wranglers (gotta get used to not Heat lol) or back to the O. It's heartbreaking seeing kids miss key dev time, especially right after covid shut down the O. It can be a dream killer.

Solovyov is interesting as well, as is Nikolayev.

I also forgot Cole Schwindt who could quite possibly be in the top group.

Wake up at 4:30am and post this I may have been a little groggy.

 

I do hope Phillips gets an actual chance this year. Otherwise maybe move him to Chicago where he can have a better shot. I'm not sure there is much else he can do.

Damn it's exciting to have them in Calgary, you guys are lucky. It will make this section far more interesting with actual live viewers.

 

He's another one I forget about too. Very intersting indeed and that's the one thing I will say about the Flames, which they certainly lack high end prospects or sure things they do have a high volume of potentials. So even a 30% hit rate will produce some NHLers. 

 

I definitely plan on catching a few games myself. See what schedule allows and like Sask I'm curious to see what the pricing comes in at but my kids are pretty excited to check it out (as I am)

[conundrumed]

Yeah that's sweet. I can't even go to Detroit's A games, Grand Rapids is over 3 hrs. I do get to go to occasional U of M games though and USNDPT are a little over an hour.

We've had zero Silver Stick Midget tourneys in 3 years now I believe, that's a huge drag. The NHL alumni list is like a who's who list of NA NHLers from Doughty and Hamilton to P. Kane and Tavares and everything in between. Even Gretzky as an Atom player.lol The tourney is Midget and Atom A thru AAA, NA Finals.

Even the Atoms can kick my Hash Rate at hockey.lol

[conundrumed]

Don't say it don't say it don't say it......STANKHOVEN having a solid game...

[travel_dude]

39 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Don't say it don't say it don't say it......STANKHOVEN having a solid game...

 

Stanky was a miss and most on the draft thread were pleading that we take him.

And some were talking about Red Savage.

[Thebrewcrew]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Don't say it don't say it don't say it......STANKHOVEN having a solid game...

I hate the the whole hindsight 20/20 thing with redrafts, but I've had the opportunity to watch the Kamloops Blazers a lot the past few seasons. Stankoven was someone I badly wanted in the 2nd round. I can understand the Stromgren pick, but Stankoven was a player I really liked.

[bosn111]

Biacsa of the Swiss went un-drafted. 19 year old 6’1 183 defensive C. Apparently his first draft year was 2021. Any interest in bringing him to the Wranglers? He plays for Halifax in the Q.

 

Low risk if he doesn’t pan out, but could be a good future bottom 6 defensive C for free. At worst an AHL player for a while.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

Biacsa of the Swiss went un-drafted. 19 year old 6’1 183 defensive C. Apparently his first draft year was 2021. Any interest in bringing him to the Wranglers? He plays for Halifax in the Q.

 

Low risk if he doesn’t pan out, but could be a good future bottom 6 defensive C for free. At worst an AHL player for a while.

 

I believe that he is too young to play in AHL.

We could invite him to camp and sign him to a NHL deal

[Thebrewcrew]

Right now I think there are four prospects that are likely to be NHLers and they're pretty obvious.

 

Wolf- Best goalie in the AHL last year. Been the best goalie in his league for like 3 seasons now. I'd imagine we see him make his NHL debut this year. Think he's one year away from being a full time NHL goalie.

 

Pelletier- One of the better AHL rookie skaters last year. Sutter made some comments last camp that he wasn't ready. I think things will be different this year. If he doesn't crack the team, he's the first call up.

 

Coronato- I think he will sign this spring. Been a long time since the Flames have had a RHS F prospect like this. Might have a hard time getting into Sutter's lineup down the stretch though. I think by 23/24 is where he will really make his mark.

 

Schwindt- Had an impressive rookie season in the AHL on a meh team. Big, versatile, RHS. I think he will be in the mix to make the team out of camp. If not he's going to be a quick recall

 

Then there's a 2nd tier, where I think these players could be NHLers, but I'm not certain.

 

Zary- I think the injury last season hampered him. This is a big year for him, needs to take a few steps forward in his development. I still think he's an important part of the Flames future, given the lack of depth they have at C.

 

Poirier- Really exciting skillset, by all accounts he started to defend better as his junior career progressed. Very excited to see him as a pro. 

 

Kuznetsov- Steady, shutdown D. Polar opposite of Poirier in a lot of ways. I think both players will get an opportunity as the Flames don't have a deep prospect pipeline at D. 

 

Kerins- Could be another late round find for the Flames. Really excited to what he can do as a pro.

 

Beck- Another late rounder. Had a solid season in the O that was hampered by injury. Hopefully he can build off his success in 21/22.

 

I'm not gonna name all the prospects, but those are the players that catch my eye right now. Stromgren and Ronni in particular I haven't seen enough of to comment too much on

[bosn111]

You are correct TD, need to wait another year. I thought it was 2 years of Major Junior or 20 years old, but it is 4 years.

 

Interesting that there MAY be a loophole to the transfer agreement as it relates to DRAFTED players. Since he went un-drafted in 2 drafts, I don’t think the agreement covers him. But I don’t know. 
 

Could the Flames sign him to an ELC and loan him back to Halifax? Maybe someone else has a better understanding of this stuff.

 

Just some thoughts.

[travel_dude]

52 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

You are correct TD, need to wait another year. I thought it was 2 years of Major Junior or 20 years old, but it is 4 years.

 

Interesting that there MAY be a loophole to the transfer agreement as it relates to DRAFTED players. Since he went un-drafted in 2 drafts, I don’t think the agreement covers him. But I don’t know. 
 

Could the Flames sign him to an ELC and loan him back to Halifax? Maybe someone else has a better understanding of this stuff.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

I don't see why not.

 

[conundrumed]

11 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I hate the the whole hindsight 20/20 thing with redrafts, but I've had the opportunity to watch the Kamloops Blazers a lot the past few seasons. Stankoven was someone I badly wanted in the 2nd round. I can understand the Stromgren pick, but Stankoven was a player I really liked.

Same same with the hindsight. I made fun because I distinctly remember @cross16 at that selection at that time really wanting Stankoven.

Aaaaand he was right. That guy oozes hard work.

So my hindsight is due to cross.lol

To be honest. But all we can do now is laugh.

So really, I was ribbing cross. Sorry cross, all in fun now. But you were totally right at the time, now it's bleeding through even heavier.

Somebody hire cross, for christsakes.

[cross16]

12 hours ago, bosn111 said:

You are correct TD, need to wait another year. I thought it was 2 years of Major Junior or 20 years old, but it is 4 years.

 

Interesting that there MAY be a loophole to the transfer agreement as it relates to DRAFTED players. Since he went un-drafted in 2 drafts, I don’t think the agreement covers him. But I don’t know. 
 

Could the Flames sign him to an ELC and loan him back to Halifax? Maybe someone else has a better understanding of this stuff.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Yes you can. if a player goes undrafted but still has draft eligibility left they became an undrafted UFA for the summer. Once they go back to their junior (or any other league team) they are in eligible to be signed until after the next draft. 

[jjgallow]

 

Generally speaking, the last two years should be the Goldmine of PTOs and undrafted players.

 

I mean, with covid, they only played half the games and some a lot less.   Many, many players not given a real chance or had enough exposure to be ranked.

 

I was shocked at how few PTOs we did last year.    I'm about to get shocked again    (not really shocked but trying to be positive and thus shocked lol).

 

It would not be surprising if some of the best undrafted NHLers in decades come out of the last two seasons.   We've dropped names in here, the talent appears to be there.

 

 

When I or others suggest PTOs on here, it usually is met with no interest whatsoever.  I'm assuming most think of PTOs as a means of acquiring minor league depth with an outside chance of 4th liners.    That is....  Absolutely the opposite of why we would acquire PTOs.

 

You're acquiring PTOs to find players who can eventually fill in your top 2 lines.   Players with that ceiling exist right now, for free.   Maybe not odds as high as a first rounder, but.... some teams will take a chance on them and come out with an extra star player.   We should know, they have made up about a third of our core (Giordano, Mangiapane, St Louis, Otto, Mullen, etc).

[bosn111]

JJ, I have no issues with PTOs, whether for NHL, AHL or even ECHL. I don’t personally follow Junior or international hockey enough to really know who to target or for which level.

 

My suggestion for Biacsa was simply based on the game he was playing vs. Canada. I was curious who drafted him and saw he was un-drafted so tried to read further. He doesn’t look like a top 6 player, more a D/energy specialist. Still worth a look as he would be a free acquisition.

 

Do you have some suggestions of who you think should get a PTO? Who are some over looked players who you feel should get a look on a PTO?

[jjgallow]

21 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

JJ, I have no issues with PTOs, whether for NHL, AHL or even ECHL. I don’t personally follow Junior or international hockey enough to really know who to target or for which level.

 

My suggestion for Biacsa was simply based on the game he was playing vs. Canada. I was curious who drafted him and saw he was un-drafted so tried to read further. He doesn’t look like a top 6 player, more a D/energy specialist. Still worth a look as he would be a free acquisition.

 

Do you have some suggestions of who you think should get a PTO? Who are some over looked players who you feel should get a look on a PTO?

 

Actually, I like your Biasca suggestion quite a bit.    Looking at the top undrafted players in the WJC historically does well, considering of course we are talking about free players.

 

Biasca has already shown that he was a massive oversight in the draft.   He should get a PTO.   It is no coincidence that he's Swiss, the Swiss are still very poorly covered.

 

If he's so good, then why was he so unremarkable in the QMJHL?           Imho that's what the PTO is for to answer.

 

 

 

There are others I like more, and yes, it's because of his unremarkableness in the qmjhl (still worth a PTO).

 

This guy:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/542979/bennet-roßmy

 

Just as impressive in the WJC, but also, look at his improvement curve in Germany.  Specifically the playoffs.   This guy has another gear.   And was passed over based on his regular season stats.    Guys with extra playoff gears should be looked at much more closely, imho.  He's also huge, and would likely translate well to the NHL.

 

Also, from another thread:

 

 

On 8/14/2022 at 1:19 PM, jjgallow said:

 

For me, in part it's the 5'10 defencemen.   Typical scenario.   The skill is there, but teams are a little reluctant to draft under 5'11.    

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/571946/jake-livanavage

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/483418/hudson-thornton

 

And defencemen in general get overlooked

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/526087/spencer-sova

 

Then you've got the late bloomer:   Sadly, Vancouver already took him off the table.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/290353/arshdeep-bains

 

 

 

Then you've got your Gaudreau/Mangiapane situation, but this year has a RW, which is nice:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/403435/jackson-berezowski

 

While I care more about the defencemen, this guy's hard to ignore.  46 goals.   Comparable to Mangiapane.  Now, Mangiapane probably had a bit of and edge on the surface, but this guy is on a truly aweful team, plus he's RW.   IMHO that balances things out, so yes, Mangiapane comparable.

 

 

 

 

 

[bosn111]

I like the sounds of Thornton and Sova. 
 

Livanavage sounds too one dimensional offence on PP. Thornton sounds like he is almost as skilled on PP with fewer warts defensively. 
 

I think the German could be offered a PTO as there is no harm in it. Looks like he is signed in Germany for next season.

 

As far as Berezowski goes, Philips is already being overlooked due to size, not sure he would get any better treatment. As you say, Mange had more of a bite like Fleury which is needed when you are smaller unless skills are absolutely elite.

 

If we offer PTOs to Rossmy, Biasca, Thornton and Sova, knowing that only Biasca is not under contract for next season and could go AHL (as I read it), it could be interesting.

[travel_dude]

I don't have a problem with guys that under performed in a league, as long as it's not part of a trend.

For instance, Pelletier has always managed to step up to the league he played in.

You don't want a guy going from one league to a tourney and just doing well there.

Puljujarvi looked like the 2nd coming, until he wasn't.

And he was a top rated player.

Tye Raty looked like a start in EDM, during camp and pre-season.

How many of those do you really want to sign.

 

If we are not going to sign Rodriguez, then he's prime for a PTO offer.

Same with Milano.

I know that goes against taking shots at potential boom/busts, but it is what it is.

The players are generally scouted a lot, so reasons for not drafting them are not always size or a poor season.

 

[conundrumed]

Let's not touch Milano. He isn't very good. No one else has touched him. Rodriguez is still kinda meh. Journeymen look great with Crosby. We have that stuff in the system. I have little doubt Ruzicka can do what Rodriguez does.

[travel_dude]

56 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Let's not touch Milano. He isn't very good. No one else has touched him. Rodriguez is still kinda meh. Journeymen look great with Crosby. We have that stuff in the system. I have little doubt Ruzicka can do what Rodriguez does.

 

Milano is potentially a puck distributor and I would be okay with a PTO.

Rodriguez can play RW and is a RHS, which is kinda the point.

I have high hopes for Ruzicka, but I would prefer to see him learn with Backlund (as a LW) or play on a scoring line (as a C).