2022 Offseason

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

He'll  be in his prime on the next one, will be interesting

 

This signing term has trade written all over it, unfortunately.

That would be a shame.

If they keep him then we get a short bridge deal and they resign him next summer.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

Clock is ticking on Mangiapane.

 

Tomorrow the club and player exchange numbers.

 

The longer this goes, the less likely a long term deal feels. If they hit arb, you've got 2/3 of your top line in contract years again

[conundrumed]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Lots of good picks over the last 12 years for STL.  Never really a rebuild that I can remember.

Stop torturing me with those picks for crap players; Kyrou, etc. 

It just shows those little, “it’s only a 2nd” things thay may have set us up a little better in the right now. We’re close but for little mistakes down the line. Like most teams.

[The_People1]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

The NBA and NFL are different beasts.  I would rather watch something where we are contenders now vs stuck in the cycle of rebuilds that so rarely go right.  Have there been any recent success stories of rebuilds?  How long did Tampa flounder before they got a cup?  10th year of Hedman and 7th of Kucherov.  Does the fact that they only won in "special" years of the SC?  COL circled the drain for many years, went up went down.  Added through trade and TDL deal just enough to get a cup.  Those are pretty long rebuilds and only two recent ones that managed to get it right.

 

Cycles can take 10 years.  It happens regardless of if you want it to.

[travel_dude]

Just now, conundrumed said:

It just shows those little, “it’s only a 2nd” things thay may have set us up a little better in the right now. We’re close but for little mistakes down the line. Like most teams.

The two you mentioned were the most aggredious.

Lazar never worth what we paid.

Elliot was a poor choice, would have been worse had we re-signed him.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

We just won our division. And maybe got better by losing our 2 primadonnas. That's contending.

 

Agreed.  It's fun right now.  We can talk about going all in and adding the final piece.

[jjgallow]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

This signing term has trade written all over it, unfortunately.

That would be a shame.

If they keep him then we get a short bridge deal and they resign him next summer.

 

 

lol.  this would make sense, seeing as he's one of the only players I've advocated keeping

[The_People1]

28 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

 

That's a nice cap hit and fair deal.  Kylington needs to prove consistency and be able to handle himself when away from Tanev.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Cycles can take 10 years.  It happens regardless of if you want it to.

 

Some are continuous cycling.  

Anyway, what I want is at least 3 years on contender.

See if cycling keeps us there or tears us down.

Outright rebuild after contenders is fine if you have nothing left to fight with or improve with.

 

We seem to have the same idea of being a contender in the short term, but I suspect you seem a tear down sooner than me.  Like I said, if you were not suggesting we lose Hubie and Weegar the end of this season, then my bad.

[jjgallow]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

The NBA and NFL are different beasts.  I would rather watch something where we are contenders now vs stuck in the cycle of rebuilds that so rarely go right.  Have there been any recent success stories of rebuilds?  How long did Tampa flounder before they got a cup?  10th year of Hedman and 7th of Kucherov.  Does the fact that they only won in "special" years of the SC?  COL circled the drain for many years, went up went down.  Added through trade and TDL deal just enough to get a cup.  Those are pretty long rebuilds and only two recent ones that managed to get it right.

 

Here is a list:  https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-stanley-cup-champions-winners-complete-list/c-287705398

 

FYI you are correct that rebuilds are slow. 7-10+ years can happen, you are correct.   Every time we make a short-term move, we push our next rebuild closer to 10+ years.  So if you really hate them that much...

 

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

lol.  this would make sense, seeing as he's one of the only players I've advocated keeping

 

I think for value and risk/reward, trading Hanifin makes more sense.  Maybe that's the reason they kept the term shorter for Kyl.  It's a bridge deal for a player with one season.    

[jjgallow]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

I think for value and risk/reward, trading Hanifin makes more sense.  Maybe that's the reason they kept the term shorter for Kyl.  It's a bridge deal for a player with one season.    

 

agreed on Hanifin.  The return would be much greater and the goal differential on our team would be much better.

[conundrumed]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.  It's fun right now.  We can talk about going all in and adding the final piece.

Well the Pelletier, Coronato, even Zary, Scwindt, Poirier, Kuz could come along. Wolf. We’re not dead yet. lol

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

agreed on Hanifin.  The return would be much greater and the goal differential on our team would be much better.

 

It's not really black and white.  We added Weegar and lost Guddy.  If we simply subtracted Hanifin, we lose some scoring and a decent plus minus, but that's not all on him.  The gain would be getting something worth a lot more than an extra D.  The risk/reward is that Hanifin is at his relative peak, while Kylington could surpass him or regress.  Staying the same isn't really a bad thing, but you want him to improve some aspects of his game.  

 

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Some are continuous cycling.  

Anyway, what I want is at least 3 years on contender.

See if cycling keeps us there or tears us down.

Outright rebuild after contenders is fine if you have nothing left to fight with or improve with.

 

We seem to have the same idea of being a contender in the short term, but I suspect you seem a tear down sooner than me.  Like I said, if you were not suggesting we lose Hubie and Weegar the end of this season, then my bad.

 

Hmm it's not that I see a rebuild as coming sooner or later but that I see it as completely natural, if not necessary.  It's "welcomed" so to speak.  Can't wait for it in a sense.

 

I have no problems if we can prolong the window through clever trades, like moving a 24-year-old core franchise guy for a 20-year-old who is about to come alive.  No.  We traded for an older and peaked players.  So what if Huberdeau extends, his best days have been spent.  We would be getting his expiring years... In other words, the window is closing even faster than before.

[jjgallow]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's not really black and white.  We added Weegar and lost Guddy.  If we simply subtracted Hanifin, we lose some scoring and a decent plus minus, but that's not all on him.  The gain would be getting something worth a lot more than an extra D.  The risk/reward is that Hanifin is at his relative peak, while Kylington could surpass him or regress.  Staying the same isn't really a bad thing, but you want him to improve some aspects of his game.  

 

 

I agree that if I were to guess, Hanifin is peaked and Kylington is a wildcard.  But given that they are the same age, and also with Hanifin's raw skills, there is a bit of wildcard in both of them still perhaps.   But this is why Hanifin is so valuable.

 

I agree you trade Hanifin for a forward, but only because obvously the team acquiring him is low in D.   It would put us in a defenceman deficit in terms of elite.   So that's why I was kind of interested in Klingberg.  Not saying he's the best answer.   Klingberg would only make sense after you trade someone else.

[The_People1]

13 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Well the Pelletier, Coronato, even Zary, Scwindt, Poirier, Kuz could come along. Wolf. We’re not dead yet. lol

 

These kids aren't blue chippers.  They are Mangiapane and Backlund level prospects.  They are nice to round out a roster but aren't going to extend a Cup winning window.

 

Wolf might be the exception because G is a game changing position in hockey.  But we will have to see.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I agree that if I were to guess, Hanifin is peaked and Kylington is a wildcard.  But given that they are the same age, and also with Hanifin's raw skills, there is a bit of wildcard in both of them still perhaps.   But this is why Hanifin is so valuable.

 

I agree you trade Hanifin for a forward, but only because obvously the team acquiring him is low in D.   It would put us in a defenceman deficit in terms of elite.   So that's why I was kind of interested in Klingberg.  Not saying he's the best answer.   Klingberg would only make sense after you trade someone else.

 

I wasn't that impressed with Klingberg in the playoffs.  He is better than what he looked like.  But it only made sense if we were immediately getting rid of Hanifin.  I still have no idea what we are doing with the pairs or excess D.Signing Kyl is absolutely necessary no matter what you are doing.  An arbitration award would have been useless.

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Here is a list:  https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-stanley-cup-champions-winners-complete-list/c-287705398

 

FYI you are correct that rebuilds are slow. 7-10+ years can happen, you are correct.   Every time we make a short-term move, we push our next rebuild closer to 10+ years.  So if you really hate them that much...

 

 

That's all the evidence anyone needs.

 

It takes 7-10 years.  And it's fine.  It's what's needed.  Enjoy the journey even if it doesn't lead to the Cup because at least we tried.

 

To say we shouldn't even waste 5 years before we get watchable hockey again is so sad.  It's not going to be enough time to build a true winner.  I would waste 15 if that's what it takes.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's all the evidence anyone needs.

 

It takes 7-10 years.  And it's fine.  It's what's needed.  Enjoy the journey even if it doesn't lead to the Cup because at least we tried.

 

To say we shouldn't even waste 5 years before we get watchable hockey again is so sad.  It's not going to be enough time to build a true winner.  I would waste 15 if that's what it takes.

 

Looking back is great.  That's what worked then.  They changed the draft rules to prevent a EDM rebuild.  NHL will likely close loopholes that allowed Tampa to win.  STL was probably the counter argument to rebuilding.  How many playoffs in their last 20 years?  In 5 years time, what is the new NHL model for winning?  Small and skilled.  Big and mean.  Medium and medium skills shared by 20 players.  Elite top line and nothing else other than role players.

 

The goal line moves, so a rebuild could end up having to do a 2nd rebuild.  No guarantee of anything.

 

 

[jjgallow]

14 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's all the evidence anyone needs.

 

It takes 7-10 years.  And it's fine.  It's what's needed.  Enjoy the journey even if it doesn't lead to the Cup because at least we tried.

 

To say we shouldn't even waste 5 years before we get watchable hockey again is so sad.  It's not going to be enough time to build a true winner.  I would waste 15 if that's what it takes.

 

Yup, 7-10 unless you get lucky or are prepared for it ahead of time.

 

7-10 usually defined as the time it takes for your developed players to reach their prime, with some of them still on entry level contracts.   Which basically means 7-10 years after you draft your elite defencemen/G, in most cases.

 

Our young D are 24, which is an awkward age for this cycle unfortunately.  Wolf could actually fit.

 

We just passed two defense-deep drafted, and drafted zero elite D.

 

Next one is 2024, same time as the term comes up on Huber/Weegar/Monahan.   Then the term comes up on everyone else the following year.

https://thehockeywriters.com/early-look-2024-nhl-draft/

[jjgallow]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Looking back is great.  That's what worked then.  They changed the draft rules to prevent a EDM rebuild.  NHL will likely close loopholes that allowed Tampa to win.  STL was probably the counter argument to rebuilding.  How many playoffs in their last 20 years?  In 5 years time, what is the new NHL model for winning?  Small and skilled.  Big and mean.  Medium and medium skills shared by 20 players.  Elite top line and nothing else other than role players.

 

The goal line moves, so a rebuild could end up having to do a 2nd rebuild.  No guarantee of anything.

 

 

 

Correct. 

 

That's how we learn.   Only looking at the present and answering everything with "too soon to say" doesn't allow for prudent decisions to be made.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Correct. 

 

That's how we learn.   Only looking at the present and answering everything with "too soon to say" doesn't allow for prudent decisions to be made.

 

WAS traded Forsberg for Erat and later won the cup.

STL didn't trade the farm and went on to win the cup.

Some things are historical and some are hysterical.

What did you learn from COL?

Wait 26 years to get it right again?

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Correct. 

 

That's how we learn.   Only looking at the present and answering everything with "too soon to say" doesn't allow for prudent decisions to be made.

 

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

WAS traded Forsberg for Erat and later won the cup.

STL didn't trade the farm and went on to win the cup.

Some things are historical and some are hysterical.

What did you learn from COL?

Wait 26 years to get it right again?

 

Maybe we can get off the rebuild kick in this thread for a bit.  We have the Blow it Up thread, if you like.  I won't be posting anything more about rebuilds here.  Fill your boots if you want to have the last say.  

[jjgallow]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

 

Maybe we can get off the rebuild kick in this thread for a bit.  We have the Blow it Up thread, if you like.  I won't be psoting anything more about rebuilds here.  Fill your boots if you want to have the last say.  

 

I was right about Ortio