2022 Offseason

[cross16]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I could only wish we could be the Senators as they tanked hard.  We will be worse.  Be like the Predators, Blue Jackets, Flyers, etc.  Just a middling team that's makes the playoffs one year and misses the next and never go far in the playoffs when they get there.  Never bad enough to draft the best players.

 

Tanked hard but yet their highest pick was due to the fact that their, at the time, star player demanded a trade and the acquiring team went into the toilet?

 

And in the process also dealt another lottery pick who turned into a top 4 dman who just won the cup?

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Or they know they won't be able to clear the cap sign necessary to sign him. Flyers have to clear a lot of cap space to even get their foot in the door. 

 

I don't read too much into the silence to be honest and if I had to guess i'm not sure it's a negative. I think if you are the Flames the only concern you have right now is he's already decide to move on and if that were the case the silence would make no sense and it would make even less sense for Treliving to give an interview saying they are only considering signing them.  It would be a pretty busy league agent tactic to wait that late to counter too. 

 

The silence tells me Gaudreau is still very much in play for Calgary but wants to wait them out for a better offer or he's waiting for another desirable location to be able to make a pitch. I'm not sure what info could be hidden at this point. 

 

 

They have the space to sign his deal.. they 28M open.. it's just that final  number dictates every move after that.. 

I don't think the flyers would be the destination..they're as you said too little space as well as more than just a player or 2 away..  I believe NJ wouid be more to his liking.. they're young but on the verge of gelling into a real good team ..quicker than Philly anyway ..

 

But again.. why the wait ?.. if it's too low , counter it .. if he goes to market, we shouid walk away and treat July 13 as tho he said no .  Either he's going to market or he isn't , he should be able to tell the flames this at this point ..or counter with a deal he'd sign right now 

And truthfully the flames deadline for that answer  shouid be this Thursday ..not July 13 

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I want Johnny signed . But not at the expense of having to field lesser talent elsewhere .. to me anything over 10.2, he can go.. thats the 8 year equivalent of Panarin:s 7 year deal.. 

 

10.2 but no way in H E double hockey sticks 10.5?

Yeah, that makes no sense.

I get what you are saying but realistically, it's whether we can reach the number he's asking for.

Assuming he's asking for it.

 

 

 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

10.2 but no way in H E double hockey sticks 10.5?

Yeah, that makes no sense.

I get what you are saying but realistically, it's whether we can reach the number he's asking for.

Assuming he's asking for it.

 

 

 

Do u seriously believe he's getting $12m from any team he'd play for ?  $10.2 is more than Panarin ..at some point is a spot where it's $1 too much .. so ya , $10.5 is a no from me 

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

They have the space to sign his deal.. they 28M open.. it's just that final  number dictates every move after that.. 

I don't think the flyers would be the destination..they're as you said too little space as well as more than just a player or 2 away..  I believe NJ wouid be more to his liking.. they're young but on the verge of gelling into a real good team ..quicker than Philly anyway ..

 

But again.. why the wait ?.. if it's too low , counter it .. if he goes to market, we shouid walk away and treat July 13 as tho he said no .  Either he's going to market or he isn't , he should be able to tell the flames this at this point ..or counter with a deal he'd sign right now 

And truthfully the flames deadline for that answer  shouid be this Thursday ..not July 13 

 

I know the Flames have the space but I was referring to the Flyers and the idea that them maybe pivoting to Debrincat is a sign NJ will outbid them for Gaudreau and I don't think that's a conclusion we can draw.

 

This is speculation but I've always heard Philly is a very desirable place for Gaudreau so i'm not sure they should be discounted like that. I get what you are saying but it's also possible that he values what Philly can offer more than picking the best destination for winning. I would speculate NJ should be a contender but again I don't know what Gaudreau wants. 

 

Again what does he gain by signing now? He is in the driver's seat here and I think any good agent would be telling him to wait. You gain nothing by signing now but more by waiting the team out that needs you more than you need them. I honestly don't think this is very complex, it's pretty basic negotiating strategy. 

 

I also don't see what the Flames gain by having a deadline of the draft. 

[The_People1]

18 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Or they know they won't be able to clear the cap sign necessary to sign him. Flyers have to clear a lot of cap space to even get their foot in the door. 

 

I don't read too much into the silence to be honest and if I had to guess i'm not sure it's a negative. I think if you are the Flames the only concern you have right now is he's already decide to move on and if that were the case the silence would make no sense and it would make even less sense for Treliving to give an interview saying they are only considering signing them.  It would be a pretty busy league agent tactic to wait that late to counter too. 

 

The silence tells me Gaudreau is still very much in play for Calgary but wants to wait them out for a better offer or he's waiting for another desirable location to be able to make a pitch. I'm not sure what info could be hidden at this point. 

 

Silence from Gaudreau is not the end of the world however, with the clock ticking, it doesn't favour the Flames more than it doesn't favour Gaudreau.  There is reason to be negative about this situation.

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Silence from Gaudreau is not the end of the world however, with the clock ticking, it doesn't favour the Flames more than it doesn't favour Gaudreau.  There is reason to be negative about this situation.

 

None of this favors the Flames. Gaudreau is in the drivers seat as is any high profile UFA.

 

I'm not suggesting that people cannot be negative that is up to them. I'm just stating that at this point in time i'm not there. 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I know the Flames have the space but I was referring to the Flyers and the idea that them maybe pivoting to Debrincat is a sign NJ will outbid them for Gaudreau and I don't think that's a conclusion we can draw.

 

This is speculation but I've always heard Philly is a very desirable place for Gaudreau so i'm not sure they should be discounted like that. I get what you are saying but it's also possible that he values what Philly can offer more than picking the best destination for winning. I would speculate NJ should be a contender but again I don't know what Gaudreau wants. 

 

Again what does he gain by signing now? He is in the driver's seat here and I think any good agent would be telling him to wait. You gain nothing by signing now but more by waiting the team out that needs you more than you need them. I honestly don't think this is very complex, it's pretty basic negotiating strategy. 

 

I also don't see what the Flames gain by having a deadline of the draft. 

If they were negotiating I'd likely agree but he's had the offer for almost a month now ..and there has been no counters , no nothing .. so it seems it's exactly what people are saying.. does he want to be in Calgary or close to home .. 

And it should be the draft cuz that's where trades can happen.. who we can target or even afford can be dictated by his decision .. 

Do we get in hard on the debrincat sweepstakes if he's coming back? Likely no..but if he leaves I'd think he becomes a big target..just as an example .. if he's not coming back the pressure to move Monahan goes down..   so many factors that we can miss or take advantage of starts at the draft 

[The_People1]

18 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

So you're saying Johnny walks and we get a Forsberg as just an example ..and we're suddenly at risk of missing the playoffs ? 

Look up north..they have 2 of the best players in the league and how many years have they sucked ?  One player does not make your team..  I want him on the team..and he's earned the right to get paid .. but we can find other ways to fill the holes if we have to 

 

How likely is it the Flames successfully pivot to Forsberg if Gaudreau leaves?  Of course that would be nice.  Just hard to see it play out in our favour.  Like you dropped a pomelo on the way home from the store but picked up a clementine on the ground.  At least you still got something back.

[The_People1]

23 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Tanked hard but yet their highest pick was due to the fact that their, at the time, star player demanded a trade and the acquiring team went into the toilet?

 

And in the process also dealt another lottery pick who turned into a top 4 dman who just won the cup?

 

I don't mean the Senators verbatim.  You know what I mean.  Rebuild through the draft by going really hard at the top picks.

[sak22]

7 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

They have the space to sign his deal.. they 28M open.. it's just that final  number dictates every move after that.. 

I don't think the flyers would be the destination..they're as you said too little space as well as more than just a player or 2 away..  I believe NJ wouid be more to his liking.. they're young but on the verge of gelling into a real good team ..quicker than Philly anyway ..

 

But again.. why the wait ?.. if it's too low , counter it .. if he goes to market, we shouid walk away and treat July 13 as tho he said no .  Either he's going to market or he isn't , he should be able to tell the flames this at this point ..or counter with a deal he'd sign right now 

And truthfully the flames deadline for that answer  shouid be this Thursday ..not July 13 

Why this Thursday?  Why give up the extra bit of time, if we are losing Gaudreau the best place to try and replace him is the open market, as the trade market IMO doesn't favor the Flames due to the lack of a first and the 2nd shouldn't be shopped around unless it is getting more picks.

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

How likely is it the Flames successfully pivot to Forsberg if Gaudreau leaves?  Of course that would be nice.  Just hard to see it play out in our favour.  Like you dropped a pomelo on the way home from the store but picked up a clementine on the ground.  At least you still got something back.

Just using the example .. but history does show that when BT wants a UFA bad enough he gets him... Now we can debate the hindsight of those players absolutely..but guys like Neal, Markstrom, Brouwer were all heavily courted UFA players that we signed .. 

 

Just saying if we lose him it's not the end of the world .

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I also don't see what the Flames gain by having a deadline of the draft. 

 

To allow us to pivot towards NJ's 2OA.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

To allow us to pivot towards NJ's 2OA.

 

That's assuming this is the range of possibilities for their off season plan. 

 

I would suggest it is not. 

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

If they were negotiating I'd likely agree but he's had the offer for almost a month now ..and there has been no counters , no nothing .. so it seems it's exactly what people are saying.. does he want to be in Calgary or close to home .. 

And it should be the draft cuz that's where trades can happen.. who we can target or even afford can be dictated by his decision .. 

Do we get in hard on the debrincat sweepstakes if he's coming back? Likely no..but if he leaves I'd think he becomes a big target..just as an example .. if he's not coming back the pressure to move Monahan goes down..   so many factors that we can miss or take advantage of starts at the draft 

 

Which would lead me to believe, like many others have noted, is that they made a very strong offer. I mean we've gotten news on Forsberg and the Preds exchanging counter offers does that make you any more confident he's going to stay in Nashville?

This is almost certaintly going to be the only time in Gaudreau's life and career he can make a decision of this magnitude so i'm personally ok if he is a bit torn on it. Especially when you consider that one of the places he may hope to be isn't exactly in a position to be there but potentially could be. I guess at the end of the day there are so many moving parts to this i'm not really in a rush to draw conclusions off info that isn't there. 

 

We don't think Treliving knows the price on Debrincat already and knows he can't pay it? We don't think he's worked out deals that are contingent on Gaudreau coming back?

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

That's assuming this is the range of possibilities for their off season plan. 

 

I would suggest it is not. 

Johnny's price or no price could put Tkachuk in play 

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Johnny's price or no price could put Tkachuk in play 

 

Even if this were true, i'm not sure it is personally, I don't think the 2 OA would in play for the Flames nor am i convinced the Devils would offer it for Tkachuk. 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Which would lead me to believe, like many others have noted, is that they made a very strong offer. I mean we've gotten news on Forsberg and the Preds exchanging counter offers does that make you any more confident he's going to stay in Nashville?

This is almost certaintly going to be the only time in Gaudreau's life and career he can make a decision of this magnitude so i'm personally ok if he is a bit torn on it. Especially when you consider that one of the places he may hope to be isn't exactly in a position to be there but potentially could be. I guess at the end of the day there are so many moving parts to this i'm not really in a rush to draw conclusions off info that isn't there. 

 

We don't think Treliving knows the price on Debrincat already and knows he can't pay it? We don't think he's worked out deals that are contingent on Gaudreau coming back?

No but there is action.. if anything it tells me he wants to be there but wants to be paid..just goes to my original point that you agreed with that he's torn on location..  but his decision handcuffs the flames .. they have a right to an answer ..and the draft is where action starts to happen ..   if he wants to feel the market , we can trade his rights..maybe it's a mid range pick but it's something

And of course he's set contingencies but many of those are draft day type deals as well .id be shocked for example if that debrincat deal doesn't happen at the draft..and no Johnny Likely puts it on the more affordable scale than with him.. 

[conundrumed]

I'm with phoenix' thoughts on this. How do we make an offer with no response from the Gaudreau camp? I get that it's business but it's a dick move. If you don't want to talk with us, if you'd leave us hanging in limbo to soak up another half mil that you don't need, we should maybe just say Blockchain this.

I'm okay with him going away if this is what good faith looks like. There's tons of good players, let's not pretend he's better than he actually is.

BT likely has his own deadline, and it would be the draft for me. He can't mess around with maybes.

Yes or No offer. JG isn't exactly the end of the world and shouldn't be treated as such.

[phoenix66]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Even if this were true, i'm not sure it is personally, I don't think the 2 OA would in play for the Flames nor am i convinced the Devils would offer it for Tkachuk. 

I would think they would .. Montreal would probabaly consider the 1oa .. the rivalry with Ottawa alone would be total sense for that 

But I'd want more than just the pick 

[phoenix66]

4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm with phoenix' thoughts on this. How do we make an offer with no response from the Gaudreau camp? I get that it's business but it's a dick move. If you don't want to talk with us, if you'd leave us hanging in limbo to soak up another half mil that you don't need, we should maybe just say Blockchain this.

I'm okay with him going away if this is what good faith looks like. There's tons of good players, let's not pretend he's better than he actually is.

BT likely has his own deadline, and it would be the draft for me. He can't mess around with maybes.

Yes or No offer. JG isn't exactly the end of the world and shouldn't be treated as such.

And that's my main point .. I don't think it's $$, or there's be a counter by now ..

 I believe he's weighing location vs loyalty.. to choose a place closer to home  I could never fault him for ..really in the end he owes us nothing..  but too much in the form of direction hinges on that decision .. we deserve some form of answer ..and ya I think the draft is a reasonable expectation..it's been a month 

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I would think they would .. Montreal would probabaly consider the 1oa .. the rivalry with Ottawa alone would be total sense for that 

But I'd want more than just the pick 

 

I don't see any team giving up a 1 or 2 OA pick for a player a year away from UFA and I see no reason why Tkachuk would engage in an extension with either team in order to facilitate said trade. 

[cross16]

At the end of the day this just comes down to how badly do the Flames feel they need Johnny and what are their plan B. They can ask for an answer all they want but he is driving the bus and I'm not sure I agree the Flames deserve an answer 10 days before a league imposed deadline. He's earned his UFA status and he's earned the right to think about, consdier all angles, find out what he can about other teams/offers and still get back to the Flames in due time. 

 

if they feel they can executor a solid Plan B then they should pivot earlier. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't see any team giving up a 1 or 2 OA pick for a player a year away from UFA and I see no reason why Tkachuk would engage in an extension with either team in order to facilitate said trade. 

 

NJ's GM is part of the Tkachuk family tree so you'd would think whatever money Tkachuk wants, he can get.

[sak22]

One thing I'd like to put out, I think if we put Tkachuk's future with the team contingent on Johnny's resigning it would be a bad look for the organization especially if Tkachuk has interest in being here longer term.  Even if you get the #2, how do you sell that person on being a Flame for 10 years if you just traded your most recent successful top pick to get him.  I'm not against moving Tkachuk, but I'd wait it out and try coming to terms.  I know the argument is that he is a 70 point player without Johnny, but Johnny was also trending to only being a 70 point player until he played with Tkachuk.