Maple Leafs @ FLAMES - Thursday 10 February 2022

[conundrumed]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is where I disagree and where I understand I will  be on a bit of an island on this, but I'm not longer a fan of the standard where you point at the victim. There is too much evidence about the dangers of head injuries for me to continue with the same old standard of simply "keep your head up". Kase had no way to defend himself other than to not make the play and I prefer speed, skill, plays and fewer head injuries than I enjoy bit hits. 

 

But like I said I understand this is my opinion only and others will disagree. 

Full respect. I don't consider it pointing at the victim. Semantics I guess.

At this stage in your career, if you can't see that coming, you probably shouldn't be in the NHL. This wasn't a blindside. Kase has a history with this. He's not really an NHLer, so he gets injured. A lot. Can't make rules to save guys that probably shouldn't be here due to lack of awareness.

[LouCifer]

I also respect your opinion cross. I'll simply say that Kase, had options. Had he more awareness, he had the choice to turn the opposite way of Z and go towards the boards to embrace a hit, however, he cut inwards and Z wasn't swayed by the direction the puck went. 

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

I also respect your opinion cross. I'll simply say that Kase, had options. Had he more awareness, he had the choice to turn the opposite way of Z and go towards the boards to embrace a hit, however, he cut inwards and Z wasn't swayed by the direction the puck went. 

 

The D finished his check, which is what you are supposed to do.  He wasn't targeting the head and a bigger guy unfortunately has that impact some times.  It's a suicide pass.  You make the play or bail.  Not sure if he had much time to react, but he turned inward as opposed to turning outward.  Many NHL players cut away to avoid the momentum of the impact.  We have smaller players that do this all the time.  

 

Not trying to argue for the victim or hitter; it was an unfortunate outcome.  It was not predatory.  At least IMHO.

[LouCifer]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

The D finished his check, which is what you are supposed to do.  He wasn't targeting the head and a bigger guy unfortunately has that impact some times.  It's a suicide pass.  You make the play or bail.  Not sure if he had much time to react, but he turned inward as opposed to turning outward.  Many NHL players cut away to avoid the momentum of the impact.  We have smaller players that do this all the time.  

 

Not trying to argue for the victim or hitter; it was an unfortunate outcome.  It was not predatory.  At least IMHO.

This is what I was saying TD. Though, I understand cross has a different opinion and that's ok. 😊

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

This is what I was saying TD. Though, I understand cross has a different opinion and that's ok. 😊

 

Just expanding on your points.  Sounds like repetition.  

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

On the Z hit while I do think it's clean based on the rules I don't like it and that should be the type of hit the NHL wants out of the game. But based on the current rules I don't see anything there that they can use to punish at all. 

 

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I'm good with the Z hit. If Kase can't see an apartment building coming then he always gets concussed. You can't make rules for guys that constantly have their head down. They shouldn't be in the league.

Rather than the hit being removed, remove the player. Can't base rules on the victim's lack of awareness.

This stuff follows Kase around. It's on him to end it, not the league. There are very few NHLers that get caught straight on like that. If you want that out of the game, what's next? There would be zero reason to have size if you can't use it.

 

The NHL wants to be a No Hit League so they can grow the game beyond Canada.  They want to protect the little player from the bigger player.  They want more small and skill I stead of big and slow.

 

The league wants to tap into the Chinese market and Asian market in general and they need the players to get smaller.  Not just from a money perspective but tap into the talent pool.  One day Johnny Gaudreau would be considered average height in the NHL.  

 

Moreover, as mentioned before in the other thread, US born athletes who are big will tend to choose football, basketball, baseball, etc before hockey.  This leaves only the smaller US born athletes to choose hockey.  You look at the best US born players in the NHL and they are usually not of NFL and NBA size.  They are usually smaller.

 

So to grow the game, the NHL has to eliminate these hits where a 6'-6" 235lb player can demolish a 6'-0" 190lb player with a clean and fair hit.

[sak22]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

The NHL wants to be a No Hit League so they can grow the game beyond Canada.  They want to protect the little player from the bigger player.  They want more small and skill I stead of big and slow.

 

The league wants to tap into the Chinese market and Asian market in general and they need the players to get smaller.  Not just from a money perspective but tap into the talent pool.  One day Johnny Gaudreau would be considered average height in the NHL.  

 

Moreover, as mentioned before in the other thread, US born athletes who are big will tend to choose football, basketball, baseball, etc before hockey.  This leaves only the smaller US born athletes to choose hockey.  You look at the best US born players in the NHL and they are usually not of NFL and NBA size.  They are usually smaller.

 

So to grow the game, the NHL has to eliminate these hits where a 6'-6" 235lb player can demolish a 6'-0" 190lb player with a clean and fair hit.

Actually, the skill positions in football are generally quite average in size, even in the QB position which not too long ago a QB under 6'2 wouldn't even be a consideration, now you have 5'10 Kyler Murray going #1 in the NFL draft.  The big difference in the US when you compare basketball, football and hockey is the demographics.  Hockey is for everyone has always been a bs statement, hockey is for those who can afford it.  But also most US players don't specialize in hockey, they grow up playing different sports, I had family play US high school football and they were urged by their football coaches to play baseball or basketball, most cases US teens don't make a decision to focus on one sport until college, even then a handful try multiple.  Kyler Murray also a first rounder in the MLB draft. 

 

The NHL isn't a no-hitting league by design, still very soft on punishments and in complete denial about CTE, the league IMO is still very much okay with violence until it get major US news coverage in the negative light like the Bertuzzi incident.

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

This is where I disagree and where I understand I will  be on a bit of an island on this, but I'm not longer a fan of the standard where you point at the victim. There is too much evidence about the dangers of head injuries for me to continue with the same old standard of simply "keep your head up". Kase had no way to defend himself other than to not make the play and I prefer speed, skill, plays and fewer head injuries than I enjoy bit hits. 

 

But like I said I understand this is my opinion only and others will disagree. 

See IMHO opinion that is what changed the game. Intimidation is a huge factor in any sport. Really all he did was skate into the lane, the pass was a suicide pass as well really was Zadorov suppose to just say oh  I am sorry just skate on through, F' that crap. Hockey is dangerous and any given night there is a chance of getting hurt. The minute they take this type of hit out of the game you may as well quite calling hockey. This bubble wrap society we live in gets depressing at times. The hit was clean it was good and it should most definetly be acceaptable regardless of which team he played for. This is exacrtly what Zadorov and Gubranson are here for to play big boy hockey, if I am Sutter its a huge pat on the back and beer for your effort with encouragement to do that anytime. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Actually, the skill positions in football are generally quite average in size, even in the QB position which not too long ago a QB under 6'2 wouldn't even be a consideration, now you have 5'10 Kyler Murray going #1 in the NFL draft.  The big difference in the US when you compare basketball, football and hockey is the demographics.  Hockey is for everyone has always been a bs statement, hockey is for those who can afford it.  But also most US players don't specialize in hockey, they grow up playing different sports, I had family play US high school football and they were urged by their football coaches to play baseball or basketball, most cases US teens don't make a decision to focus on one sport until college, even then a handful try multiple.  Kyler Murray also a first rounder in the MLB draft. 

 

The NHL isn't a no-hitting league by design, still very soft on punishments and in complete denial about CTE, the league IMO is still very much okay with violence until it get major US news coverage in the negative light like the Bertuzzi incident.

 

Yes of course i'm just making a generalizing statement.  There's only so much talent to go around and when 3 other major sports are absorbing all the big athletes, then there's mostly going to be small ones left.

 

I also agree with the "rich kids sport" part of the argument and thus even more reason for the NHL to make the game more safe.  Rich parents are unlikely to put their kids into hockey with all the CTE problems.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes of course i'm just making a generalizing statement.  There's only so much talent to go around and when 3 other major sports are absorbing all the big athletes, then there's mostly going to be small ones left.

 

I also agree with the "rich kids sport" part of the argument and thus even more reason for the NHL to make the game more safe.  Rich parents are unlikely to put their kids into hockey with all the CTE problems.

 

Well, they only have a base of 10x the people in Canada.  

Know how hard it is for US athletes to make the Olympics?

Cream of the crop and most attractive on TV.

 

The pool is bigger to begin with, then gets diluted by other sports.

There is still a tendency to only draft "special" players out of the USA.

As such, we only see the best ones in the NHL (or ones that appear to be the best).

The average ones probably never see the NHL, even though they may be better than CDN or others.

 

I do think that the number of players going into other sports is not exactly true.

A linebacker would never make an AHL team, let alone NHL.

A guy 6'10" is not really suited for the NHL.

NFL careers last so short, unless you are in the top 2%.

And the pay is less for the lesser ones.

 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

This is where I disagree and where I understand I will  be on a bit of an island on this, but I'm not longer a fan of the standard where you point at the victim. There is too much evidence about the dangers of head injuries for me to continue with the same old standard of simply "keep your head up". Kase had no way to defend himself other than to not make the play and I prefer speed, skill, plays and fewer head injuries than I enjoy bit hits. 

 

But like I said I understand this is my opinion only and others will disagree. 

 

49 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

See IMHO opinion that is what changed the game. Intimidation is a huge factor in any sport. Really all he did was skate into the lane, the pass was a suicide pass as well really was Zadorov suppose to just say oh  I am sorry just skate on through, F' that crap. Hockey is dangerous and any given night there is a chance of getting hurt. The minute they take this type of hit out of the game you may as well quite calling hockey. This bubble wrap society we live in gets depressing at times. The hit was clean it was good and it should most definetly be acceaptable regardless of which team he played for. This is exacrtly what Zadorov and Gubranson are here for to play big boy hockey, if I am Sutter its a huge pat on the back and beer for your effort with encouragement to do that anytime. 

 

What do you guys think if there's a new rule to say, players must show an attempt to play the puck first before playing the body?  Will this ruin the game or could this be the solution to prevent major head injuries?

 

I do agree the general appetite to watch players get KO'd is diminishing as society evolves and the game needs to evolve too if it wants to continue to grow to new markets.  

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, they only have a base of 10x the people in Canada.  

Know how hard it is for US athletes to make the Olympics?

Cream of the crop and most attractive on TV.

 

The pool is bigger to begin with, then gets diluted by other sports.

There is still a tendency to only draft "special" players out of the USA.

As such, we only see the best ones in the NHL (or ones that appear to be the best).

The average ones probably never see the NHL, even though they may be better than CDN or others.

 

I do think that the number of players going into other sports is not exactly true.

A linebacker would never make an AHL team, let alone NHL.

A guy 6'10" is not really suited for the NHL.

NFL careers last so short, unless you are in the top 2%.

And the pay is less for the lesser ones.

 

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

 

I'm saying if hockey continues to be a sport where only 6'-2" and bigger can thrive, then it will create a huge barrier of entry to smaller athletes. Most of the talented big athletes in the US are already committed to other sports therefore only small talented athletes remain in the talent pool.  If the NHL wants to capture this pool of smaller talented US born athletes then the sport needs to cater to smaller players.

[cross16]

4 hours ago, LouCifer said:

I also respect your opinion cross. I'll simply say that Kase, had options. Had he more awareness, he had the choice to turn the opposite way of Z and go towards the boards to embrace a hit, however, he cut inwards and Z wasn't swayed by the direction the puck went. 

 

What options did he have? The pass is what drew him to the inside, he couldn't break outside otherwise the puck is basically right on Z's stick and it's an easy turnover. I don't agree at all that this is bad awareness or on Kase, he saw him coming (got his hands up afterall) he just had no time to do anything about it.

25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

What do you guys think if there's a new rule to say, players must show an attempt to play the puck first before playing the body?  Will this ruin the game or could this be the solution to prevent major head injuries?

 

I do agree the general appetite to watch players get KO'd is diminishing as society evolves and the game needs to evolve too if it wants to continue to grow to new markets.  

 

This is my angle on the whole thing I want to see the game safer. I'm all for physical contact but we just have so much data on head injuries know that I think the appetite for risk needs to change.  Not just to grow into other markets but to emphasize player safety..

 

I am in favor of looking at a defenseless player type of penalty and IMO that's exactly what the hit last night was. Again I want to be clear I don't think Z did anything wrong and as per the current rules it's a legal hit. I just think in that situation there was nothing Kase could do other than get smoked and IMO that's not what the game is or should be about. Players in vulnerable positions like Kase was shouldn't have to worry about getting drilled and risk head injury IMO. I also don't think it makes the game any worse, just like the decrease in fighting hasn't made the game any worse. 

 

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

What options did he have? The pass is what drew him to the inside, he couldn't break outside otherwise the puck is basically right on Z's stick and it's an easy turnover. I don't agree at all that this is bad awareness or on Kase, he saw him coming (got his hands up afterall) he just had no time to do anything about it.

 

This is my angle on the whole thing I want to see the game safer. I'm all for physical contact but we just have so much data on head injuries know that I think the appetite for risk needs to change.  Not just to grow into other markets but to emphasize player safety..

 

I am in favor of looking at a defenseless player type of penalty and IMO that's exactly what the hit last night was. Again I want to be clear I don't think Z did anything wrong and as per the current rules it's a legal hit. I just think in that situation there was nothing Kase could do other than get smoked and IMO that's not what the game is or should be about. Players in vulnerable positions like Kase was shouldn't have to worry about getting drilled and risk head injury IMO. I also don't think it makes the game any worse, just like the decrease in fighting hadn't made the game any worse. 

 

 

Ya I'm just thinking if a player must now play the puck first before they play the body then half of these hits won't even happen to begin with.  It will remove some hitting but it may be for the better.

 

I forgot who the player Coleman hit against ARZ but it was the exact same hit as Zadorov on Kase.  The difference was, Coleman was shorter than the ARZ player so Coleman's shoulder hit the ARZ player's chest.  Zadorov's shoulder lands on Kase's neck/head.

 

In both cases, if Coleman and Zadorov had to show an attempt to play the puck first then those hits won't happen.

[sak22]

38 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I am in favor of looking at a defenseless player type of penalty and IMO that's exactly what the hit last night was. Again I want to be clear I don't think Z did anything wrong and as per the current rules it's a legal hit. I just think in that situation there was nothing Kase could do other than get smoked and IMO that's not what the game is or should be about. Players in vulnerable positions like Kase was shouldn't have to worry about getting drilled and risk head injury IMO. I also don't think it makes the game any worse, just like the decrease in fighting hasn't made the game any worse. 

 

I generally agree, its like the defenseless receiver in football.  Brady said this year that those plays were the fault of the QB and it's pretty much true, receivers by nature have their sights set on the ball and do whatever body movements necessary to catch the ball often putting themselves in vulnerable spots, the DB by nature is going for the ball or trying to prevent the catch/minimize the gain.  The elite QB's throughout the years have kept their top weapons on the field with them for the most part.  They have also basically taken elements out of the game like kick returns and on-side kicks, I still wouldn't say the league is has become "soft", and it really hasn't drastically impacted the viewership.  Someone doesn't need a concussion for a hit to be good, still plenty of good hits last night alone.  

 

The game is naturally dangerous, but it's not like skating is about to be removed because a kid accidentally died.  CTE is a different beast, unlike some career ending injuries you can still live a functioning life outside of the sport, without a functioning brain what can you do?  It's also a dangerous condition for yourself and those around you.  Are we going to be talking about this hit for the next 10 years?  Definitely not.

[conundrumed]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

What options did he have? The pass is what drew him to the inside, he couldn't break outside otherwise the puck is basically right on Z's stick and it's an easy turnover. I don't agree at all that this is bad awareness or on Kase, he saw him coming (got his hands up afterall) he just had no time to do anything about it.

I can't really agree with your assessment. Kase was trying to poke it around Zadorov and beat him to Kase's left. He had safe space on his right. But it's Kase. He could have poked the puck and darted right. I'm pretty sure 99% of NHL players can avoid that much impact. Kase can't. It wasn't a board hit. Kase played risk and lost. Call it what it is. A huge hit on a player that always plays risk. Why do we want to protect that with more rules to protect stupidity?

I get the head injury part, but this isn't dirty, it's not on the boards, it's not a blindside. It's a player that tends to love risk, and loses at it a lot.

My question is that if this is unacceptable, how deep is this new rabbithole?

It's already close to unwatchable due to erroneous reffing and erroneous challenge rules.

[conundrumed]

At any rate this season has been way more superfun than expected.