2019-20 ROSTER PLANNING

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Some of the narrative around DSP is that he's a possession anchor.

Does that sound like the type of player we need?

 

 

I am not as huge into the possession stats as some. I agred that having the puck is important, but if all you’re getting are perimeter chances then it’s all for not. Since GG started, I haven’t liked the play. They have the puck but I rarely think there is enough threats. 

 

I think something the first line did well last season was score on transition. When that stopped, their offence slowed up. That’s eye test though so I am probably wrong. 

 

I agree that it is better to possess the puck. I just feel that teams let the Flames skate with it as long as the keep them to the outside. 

 

I believe when the Flames activate the D, the team gets more dangerous. Peters does that better in his system than GG’s, which could have  been the reason Gio is a Norris D with Peters and Hartley, but not one with GG. Tough to call as Gio played to cover Hamilton’s pinches. 

 

But with Smith Pelley, what does he bring? Size, possible energy, possibly the need to retire and poor stats. 

 

I think from the 4th line it’s not as big a deal, mostly because they don’t get many minutes. I wouldn’t begin to know where his zone starts are or who he would have played against. If other teams play their best against his line... I dunno. Also this  GM seems to believe in toughness in the lineup. DSP seems to step up in bigger games too. 

 

I dunno. 

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I am not as huge into the possession stats as some. I agred that having the puck is important, but if all you’re getting are perimeter chances then it’s all for not. Since GG started, I haven’t liked the play. They have the puck but I rarely think there is enough threats. 

 

I think something the first line did well last season was score on transition. When that stopped, their offence slowed up. That’s eye test though so I am probably wrong. 

 

I agree that it is better to possess the puck. I just feel that teams let the Flames skate with it as long as the keep them to the outside. 

 

I believe when the Flames activate the D, the team gets more dangerous. Peters does that better in his system than GG’s, which could have  been the reason Gio is a Norris D with Peters and Hartley, but not one with GG. Tough to call as Gio played to cover Hamilton’s pinches. 

 

But with Smith Pelley, what does he bring? Size, possible energy, possibly the need to retire and poor stats. 

 

I think from the 4th line it’s not as big a deal, mostly because they don’t get many minutes. I wouldn’t begin to know where his zone starts are or who he would have played against. If other teams play their best against his line... I dunno. Also this  GM seems to believe in toughness in the lineup. DSP seems to step up in bigger games too. 

 

I dunno. 

 

If you look at results of our 4th line last year, you are seeing a lot of goals.

At even strength, 11 for Ryan and Hathaway each, 8 for Mangiapane....

Do you want to go backwards?

Lucic will be luck to score 12 playing on a 3rd line.

DSP had 4 last year.

 

I'm not saying there isn't a need for a player like him, but if he isn't scoring he better be making the line better.

Mangiapane and Ryan were great at outscoring their opponents.

In other words, they were on the ice for very few goals against, while scoring some.

[robrob74]

51 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you look at results of our 4th line last year, you are seeing a lot of goals.

At even strength, 11 for Ryan and Hathaway each, 8 for Mangiapane....

Do you want to go backwards?

Lucic will be luck to score 12 playing on a 3rd line.

DSP had 4 last year.

 

I'm not saying there isn't a need for a player like him, but if he isn't scoring he better be making the line better.

Mangiapane and Ryan were great at outscoring their opponents.

In other words, they were on the ice for very few goals against, while scoring some.

 

 

For me it isn't the 4th line I am worried about. Sure it’s great when they can score. To me, the 3rd line was so bad I felt the 4th line was the 3rd. 

 

 

I look for energy from the 4th. I look for scoring from the first 3lines. 

 

Do I want to go backwards? We will probably have to if some of those players move up the lineup.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you look at results of our 4th line last year, you are seeing a lot of goals.

At even strength, 11 for Ryan and Hathaway each, 8 for Mangiapane....

Do you want to go backwards?

Lucic will be luck to score 12 playing on a 3rd line.

DSP had 4 last year.

 

I'm not saying there isn't a need for a player like him, but if he isn't scoring he better be making the line better.

Mangiapane and Ryan were great at outscoring their opponents.

In other words, they were on the ice for very few goals against, while scoring some.

 

Up until last year Hathaway was really nothing special and then he broke out and while I'm not criticizing the player, I would point at Ryan (plus system/circumstance) as a key reason why. 

 

DVP for much of his career has mirrored Hathaway in terms of style of game and results. No reason to assume the Flames have moved backwards here. 

[The_People1]

56 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I look for energy from the 4th. I look for scoring from the first 3lines. 

 

I would agree.  I'd rather a physically intimidating 4th line that scores 5-goals all season than one that doesn't hit and tries to score but obviously lacks the skills to.

[GM_3300]

Does anyone else feels like Management just kind of took the offseason off ?

[cross16]

13 minutes ago, GM_3300 said:

Does anyone else feels like Management just kind of took the offseason off ?

 

Not in the slightest. 

 

I see a league changing and GMs/teams scrambling to keep up. 

[travel_dude]

On 9/6/2019 at 9:26 AM, cross16 said:

 

Up until last year Hathaway was really nothing special and then he broke out and while I'm not criticizing the player, I would point at Ryan (plus system/circumstance) as a key reason why. 

 

DVP for much of his career has mirrored Hathaway in terms of style of game and results. No reason to assume the Flames have moved backwards here. 

 

The point being that if you aren't scoring much, you need to be contributing elsewhere, not just in penalty minutes.

My back and forth with RobRob was about replacing Hathaway's scoring, PK'ing and general mucking with possibly just one of those facets.

I feel DSP takes you backwards.  Bit of an anchor.

As a role player who gets in the game against the Kane or perhaps Perry?

[GM_3300]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Not in the slightest. 

 

I see a league changing and GMs/teams scrambling to keep up. 

Rosterwise we are the same team as this past season maybe a tad worse.

[robrob74]

44 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The point being that if you aren't scoring much, you need to be contributing elsewhere, not just in penalty minutes.

My back and forth with RobRob was about replacing Hathaway's scoring, PK'ing and general mucking with possibly just one of those facets.

I feel DSP takes you backwards.  Bit of an anchor.

As a role player who gets in the game against the Kane or perhaps Perry?

 

 

I think I am going to miss Hathaway. He was one of my favourites. Even though he’s not Tkachuk, he is somehow able to get under the opponent’s skin and draws penalties. I wonder how many goals resulted in the pp’s he drew. 

He is not someone who can create offence off of his stick on his own, but was able to chip in when others help push the play. 

 

I just wonder if DSP can do that with someone like Ryan. But I am not holding my breath. I just think that I prefer that offence comes regularly from the top 3. I want it from the 4th, but anything from them is a bonus. 

 

 

That was not the case last year for the Flames. Then again, the 3rd line was basically a 4th line. So really  Ryan was a 3rd line C. 

 

Jankos line couldn’t figure it out. 

 

So so we will see.

 

an argument I’ve read a lot on here is that a Hathaway is a dime a dozen, easily replaced. I don’t agree.

 

And you’re right, I am curious who will kill penalties.

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think I am going to miss Hathaway. He was one of my favourites. Even though he’s not Tkachuk, he is somehow able to get under the opponent’s skin and draws penalties. I wonder how many goals resulted in the pp’s he drew. 

He is not someone who can create offence off of his stick on his own, but was able to chip in when others help push the play. 

 

I just wonder if DSP can do that with someone like Ryan. But I am not holding my breath. I just think that I prefer that offence comes regularly from the top 3. I want it from the 4th, but anything from them is a bonus. 

 

 

That was not the case last year for the Flames. Then again, the 3rd line was basically a 4th line. So really  Ryan was a 3rd line C. 

 

Jankos line couldn’t figure it out. 

 

So so we will see.

 

an argument I’ve read a lot on here is that a Hathaway is a dime a dozen, easily replaced. I don’t agree.

 

And you’re right, I am curious who will kill penalties.

 

Same man.  Hathaway is a fantastic skater and his speed on the forecheck will be missed.  He's a guy who knows his role and accepts his fate.  You don't see this enough with many kids these days because they all want to play top 6 and get PP minutes.  Hathaway commits to the NHL and gives an honest effort like he knows every game in the NHL is an over achievement in his career already.  Great guy and will be missed.

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I think I am going to miss Hathaway. He was one of my favourites. Even though he’s not Tkachuk, he is somehow able to get under the opponent’s skin and draws penalties. I wonder how many goals resulted in the pp’s he drew. 

He is not someone who can create offence off of his stick on his own, but was able to chip in when others help push the play. 

 

He was kinda like Bouma, in that he was heart & soul and managed to put up points.

He was able to draw penalties, but also took too many, making it less valuable.

Still, he was a good player, maybe not worth 1.5m.

 

The leaders in drwaing penalties were Tkachuk and JH.

Bennett had the opposite impact mostly, taking too many and not drawing enough.

If he's going to take top 6 minutes, he better not be putting us in a hole all the time.

 

And that's sorta why I'm against DSP being a regular.

I don't think he has blazing speed, so he isn't drawing hooks.

He mucks it up, so he's as likely to get a penalty as draw one.

Doesn't make him useless, just not as valuable as some.

 

It's funny, but I actually think Rieder might get a contract.

He's got speed.

He plays his off wing on RW.

We don't have too much depth there.

[Horsman1]

57 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Same man.  Hathaway is a fantastic skater and his speed on the forecheck will be missed.  He's a guy who knows his role and accepts his fate.  You don't see this enough with many kids these days because they all want to play top 6 and get PP minutes.  Hathaway commits to the NHL and gives an honest effort like he knows every game in the NHL is an over achievement in his career already.  Great guy and will be missed.

we have a long history of being good hard working teams that have always had Hathaway's on our team.. Colin Patterson/Richie Kromm/Dave Hindmarsh/Jamie Hislop/ Prust.. and on and on.. you can't have 12 guys trying to score.. That's not how you build a team.. A Team has many elements and those magic players that help you win are most often the role players on the 3rd and 4th lines.. Hathaway will be missed

 

[cross16]

16 hours ago, GM_3300 said:

Rosterwise we are the same team as this past season maybe a tad worse.

 

Maybe. But when you are the second best team in the league, especially in a cap system, not a long runway for improvement on paper. 

[redfire11]

16 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

we have a long history of being good hard working teams that have always had Hathaway's on our team.. Colin Patterson/Richie Kromm/Dave Hindmarsh/Jamie Hislop/ Prust.. and on and on.. you can't have 12 guys trying to score.. That's not how you build a team.. A Team has many elements and those magic players that help you win are most often the role players on the 3rd and 4th lines.. Hathaway will be missed

 

Unfortunately it is all about goals and assists. That determines how good a player you are, how much money you should make, etc. Yes we will miss Hathaway's hard work.

[GM_3300]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Maybe. But when you are the second best team in the league, especially in a cap system, not a long runway for improvement on paper. 

Perhaps if Peters is a tad better coaching in his 2nd season, the tad worse gets rectified. Go FLAMES Go !

[robrob74]

My attempt at new lines.

 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Mangiapane/Czarnik

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Czarnik/Mangiapane

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik

Lucic, Jankowski, Ryan,/Quine

 

Reider, Jamkowski

 

It isn’t that I necessarily think the new top4 players deserve to play there, I just think they can flourish in those spots and allow more depth down the lineup. Plus I don’t mind the idea of sheltering the top line and on the road they can change it up when needed. Guys like Ryan or others moved to shorten the bench when needed. I would even try Bennett with Ryan. I just think the team gets shallow fast when Lindholm is with the top line. They have a history of making it work, and they can always go back to the line with Lindholm in the last 10-15 min of a game to spark comebacks.

 

I think that Lindholm and Tkachuks game sense can help a smart Mangiapane, while he could be a better fit with Monahan and Gaudreau because Mangiapane is good at getting dirty in the corners and would know what to do with Johnny’s passes.

 

Czarnik could be a better fit with the Lindholm line as both Lindy and Tkachuk are smart and good defenders. That would handicap what Czarnik lacks...

 

Ryan can take the draws on the 4th. Sit Janks out once in awhile.

 

 

Giordano, Andersson

Hanifin, Hamonic

MacDonald, Brodie

Stone

 

Kylington should get 25 minutes a night in Stockton and learn how to play D. Get the hard minutes and become better defensively. Hopefully he can learn and earn it for next year.

[kehatch]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

My attempt at new lines.

 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Mangiapane/Czarnik

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Czarnik/Mangiapane

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik

Lucic, Jankowski, Ryan,/Quine

 

Giordano, Andersson

Hanifin, Hamonic

MacDonald, Brodie

Stone

 

Mine are close to yours with a few key differences.  

• I need to see Andersson handle bigger minutes before I put him on the top pairing full time.  That is one of the reasons I think a Brodie trade is a non-starter right now.  Giordano has a career season and won a Norris playing next to Brodie.  I don't mess that up unless that pairing doesn't work or Andersson makes a serious push. 
• I don't like Mangiapane in the top 6 yet, but he could earn his way there.  I don't like Czarnik in the top 6 at all.  
• My fourth line doesn't look like yours at all.  

 

I have: 

• Gaudreau-Monahan-Ryan (Offensive): Ryan gives them a solid RH face off guy, and he plays a similar game to the kind of players that have had success on the top line
• Tkachuk-Lindholm-Bennett (Blend): Bennett adds a guy who can carry the puck into the offensive zone and add some skill.  I like having an energy line in the top 6 and I think having Bennett and Tkachuk together gives you that.  Plus, we get another top 6 with a LH RH face off option.  
• Lucic-Backlund-Frolik (Defensive): Backlund and Frolik are obvious.  They have been great together.  Lucic's possession numbers are strong, plus he has a similar play style to Tkachuk.  I also think playing with Backlund gives him the best chance to recover his game due to the so called 'Backlund Bump'. 
• Mangiapane-Quine-Rieder (Sheltered): Quine is showing he is ready and he is a million less then Jankowski.  Rieder makes the team to replace the PK time we lose with Jankowski.  I think this is a quality 4 line that gives the team depth, special team support, but can contribute a bit on its own.  
• (Scratch) Czarnik: Czarnik is an (almost) ideal 13 forward.  He can play if we need him to and it lets guys like Dube develop in the AHL.  The only issue is he is paid an extra 500K more then I would like.  Which is why I am also open to a trade and bringing back a 700K 13 forward.  

 

• Giordano-Brodie: This worked last season, and it worked very well.  Brodie gets some flack, but he was part B to possibly the best pairing in the NHL last season.  
• Hanafin-Hamonic: Old faithful, no need to mess this match up. 
• MacDonald-Andersson: Kylington hasn't shown he is ready for a full time role.  He is also not waiver eligible so he can easily be sent down.  Signing MacDonald gives us the option to bringing Kylington up in the future without the pressure of 'do or die'. 
• Stone: He wasn't my first pick for a 7D.  But he is on a minimum wage contract and can clearly play at the NHL level, so here he is. 

 

This isn't perfect.  I would like to see a bit of size on the top line from a player with a bit more offensive ability.  I am not a huge fan of Bennett and putting him on the right side adds a bit of extra challenge to a player still working to find his way.  I also don't love the lack of a RH shot on the third line.  But overall I think this is a deep line up that is mobile top to bottom and that has a good range of offense / defense.  

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Mine are close to yours with a few key differences.  

• I need to see Andersson handle bigger minutes before I put him on the top pairing full time.  That is one of the reasons I think a Brodie trade is a non-starter right now.  Giordano has a career season and won a Norris playing next to Brodie.  I don't mess that up unless that pairing doesn't work or Andersson makes a serious push. 
• I don't like Mangiapane in the top 6 yet, but he could earn his way there.  I don't like Czarnik in the top 6 at all.  
• My fourth line doesn't look like yours at all.  

 

I have: 

• Gaudreau-Monahan-Ryan (Offensive): Ryan gives them a solid RH face off guy, and he plays a similar game to the kind of players that have had success on the top line
• Tkachuk-Lindholm-Bennett (Blend): Bennett adds a guy who can carry the puck into the offensive zone and add some skill.  I like having an energy line in the top 6 and I think having Bennett and Tkachuk together gives you that.  Plus, we get another top 6 with a LH RH face off option.  
• Lucic-Backlund-Frolik (Defensive): Backlund and Frolik are obvious.  They have been great together.  Lucic's possession numbers are strong, plus he has a similar play style to Tkachuk.  I also think playing with Backlund gives him the best chance to recover his game due to the so called 'Backlund Bump'. 
• Mangiapane-Quine-Rieder (Sheltered): Quine is showing he is ready and he is a million less then Jankowski.  Rieder makes the team to replace the PK time we lose with Jankowski.  I think this is a quality 4 line that gives the team depth, special team support, but can contribute a bit on its own.  
• (Scratch) Czarnik: Czarnik is an (almost) ideal 13 forward.  He can play if we need him to and it lets guys like Dube develop in the AHL.  The only issue is he is paid an extra 500K more then I would like.  Which is why I am also open to a trade and bringing back a 700K 13 forward.  

 

• Giordano-Brodie: This worked last season, and it worked very well.  Brodie gets some flack, but he was part B to possibly the best pairing in the NHL last season.  
• Hanafin-Hamonic: Old faithful, no need to mess this match up. 
• MacDonald-Andersson: Kylington hasn't shown he is ready for a full time role.  He is also not waiver eligible so he can easily be sent down.  Signing MacDonald gives us the option to bringing Kylington up in the future without the pressure of 'do or die'. 
• Stone: He wasn't my first pick for a 7D.  But he is on a minimum wage contract and can clearly play at the NHL level, so here he is. 

 

This isn't perfect.  I would like to see a bit of size on the top line from a player with a bit more offensive ability.  I am not a huge fan of Bennett and putting him on the right side adds a bit of extra challenge to a player still working to find his way.  I also don't love the lack of a RH shot on the third line.  But overall I think this is a deep line up that is mobile top to bottom and that has a good range of offense / defense.  

 

I agree with a lot of what you say. I thought of Ryan in the top line too, but like you, size concerns me. 

 

The 2nd line can be interesting too. I like the thought.

 

i think Lucic could do well with that duo as well.

 

i just think there could be better ways of moving guys up and making the team deeper than placing Lindholm in the top line. It really dumbs down the 3rd and 4th lines by doing that. 

 

I dont like Czarnik either.

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I have: 

• Gaudreau-Monahan-Ryan (Offensive): Ryan gives them a solid RH face off guy, and he plays a similar game to the kind of players that have had success on the top line
• Tkachuk-Lindholm-Bennett (Blend): Bennett adds a guy who can carry the puck into the offensive zone and add some skill.  I like having an energy line in the top 6 and I think having Bennett and Tkachuk together gives you that.  Plus, we get another top 6 with a LH RH face off option.  
• Lucic-Backlund-Frolik (Defensive): Backlund and Frolik are obvious.  They have been great together.  Lucic's possession numbers are strong, plus he has a similar play style to Tkachuk.  I also think playing with Backlund gives him the best chance to recover his game due to the so called 'Backlund Bump'. 
• Mangiapane-Quine-Rieder (Sheltered): Quine is showing he is ready and he is a million less then Jankowski.  Rieder makes the team to replace the PK time we lose with Jankowski.  I think this is a quality 4 line that gives the team depth, special team support, but can contribute a bit on its own.  
• (Scratch) Czarnik: Czarnik is an (almost) ideal 13 forward.  He can play if we need him to and it lets guys like Dube develop in the AHL.  The only issue is he is paid an extra 500K more then I would like.  Which is why I am also open to a trade and bringing back a 700K 13 forward.  

 

• Giordano-Brodie: This worked last season, and it worked very well.  Brodie gets some flack, but he was part B to possibly the best pairing in the NHL last season.  
• Hanafin-Hamonic: Old faithful, no need to mess this match up. 
• MacDonald-Andersson: Kylington hasn't shown he is ready for a full time role.  He is also not waiver eligible so he can easily be sent down.  Signing MacDonald gives us the option to bringing Kylington up in the future without the pressure of 'do or die'. 
• Stone: He wasn't my first pick for a 7D.  But he is on a minimum wage contract and can clearly play at the NHL level, so here he is. 

 

 

I don't see the similarities between Ryan and Gaudreau's games at all, but that is just me.  I feel that Ryan is suited for a N/S game; players like Ferland would be ideal.

Since we don't have him, I would suggest Mangiapane with Ryan and Rieder.  Smaller players, but fast and responsible.

 

We are kind of missing a player to take Lindholm's space on the top line, though.

As a result, nothing changes in the top 6, unless you switch Bennett with Frolik.

I'm not really sold on Bennett playing RW yet, though.

 

So, let me try this.  Based on what worked last year and what could work with a few pieces changed out this year:

 

JG-Monahan-Lindholm

Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett

Mangiapane-Ryan-Rieder

Lucic-Janko-Quine

 

As far as the D goes, I would leave it alone and keep Kylington as the 3rd pairing LD.

He should be taking a step this year.

Your 7th D is either MacDonald or Stone.

Send the other guy down.

The farm needs a vet there to help development.

Who cares if he's costing $700k.

[robrob74]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't see the similarities between Ryan and Gaudreau's games at all, but that is just me.  I feel that Ryan is suited for a N/S game; players like Ferland would be ideal.

Since we don't have him, I would suggest Mangiapane with Ryan and Rieder.  Smaller players, but fast and responsible.

 

We are kind of missing a player to take Lindholm's space on the top line, though.

As a result, nothing changes in the top 6, unless you switch Bennett with Frolik.

I'm not really sold on Bennett playing RW yet, though.

 

So, let me try this.  Based on what worked last year and what could work with a few pieces changed out this year:

 

JG-Monahan-Lindholm

Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett

Mangiapane-Ryan-Rieder

Lucic-Janko-Quine

 

As far as the D goes, I would leave it alone and keep Kylington as the 3rd pairing LD.

He should be taking a step this year.

Your 7th D is either MacDonald or Stone.

Send the other guy down.

The farm needs a vet there to help development.

Who cares if he's costing $700k.

 

For me, I see the value in pairs and the pairs are strong in three lines, but the 4th pair seems to be mixed results. I want to try and make 4 solid pairs. I think the depth could be used more efficiently. It is the Jankowski Bennett pair I question. 

 

I dont know if being similar to both Monahan and Gaudreau is what Cross meant as much as I think Ryan could compliment what they do. 

 

I do think moving Lindholm to a Tkachuk line could make a decent pair. Both smart players and two-way ability.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

For me, I see the value in pairs and the pairs are strong in three lines, but the 4th pair seems to be mixed results. I want to try and make 4 solid pairs. I think the depth could be used more efficiently. It is the Jankowski Bennett pair I question. 

 

I dont know if being similar to both Monahan and Gaudreau is what Cross meant as much as I think Ryan could compliment what they do. 

 

I dont think moving Lindholm to a Tkachuk line could make a decent pair. Both smart players and two-way ability.

 

You mean Kehatch?

I read it to mean he plays a similar game to Lindholm, Ferland and Hudler.

Ferland had limited success there, but mostly he went to the net with the puck and his size helped.

Lindholm and Hudler were different players than Ryan, IMO.

Besides, Ryan is our best C (FO%), and we would lose a lot of draws elsewhere.

 

The pairs argument is valid, 

I don;t think Janko fits well so far with anyone.

Not Bennett.

Maybe Lucic.

Maybe Quine.

Mangiapane did, but that was mostly in Stockton.

 

[JTech780]

Gaudreau-Monanahan-Lindholm

Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik

Lucic-Ryan-Bennett

Mangiapane-Jankowski-Rieder

Quine

 

Giordano-Brodie

Hanifin-Hamonic

MacDonald-Andersson

Stone

 

Rittich

Talbot

[stubblejumper1]

Am I the only person who doesn't see how Reider would improve the team?  I hope I'm wrong, but he is another smallish forward with below average hands.  Cheap two way contract, so maybe he ends up in the minors?

[cross16]

I don’t really like it myself. It’s cheap and flexible so not worth getting worked up over but I don’t really see the benefits either.