Flames 2018 NHL Draft

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya, I wish we did that too.  But we thought we were Cup contenders too early.

I don't know where or how you guys got that idea.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I would.

They won't be a playoff team next year. Take your picks and bide your time.

See how next year plays, but give it a year, if you aren't seeing it, wait another year.

They really need a lot of work at D, not one Hamilton.

I doubt they're ready to make a big move that'll matter much.

But they do have that big new awesome arena.

So who knows?

 

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya, I wish we did that too.  But we thought we were Cup contenders too early.

 

I would’ve preferred Barzal over the trade we made at the time, plus the picks we gave up. 

 

I guess i am happy with Hamilton’s skill, but I just feel like he’s not the kind of player I want in the 1st pair. I think he’s just too soft, and if Gio ages out, he’s kinda hopped. I wonder if we have someone to play with him after that? Will he continue that success without Gio? 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I would’ve preferred Barzal over the trade we made at the time, plus the picks we gave up. 

 

I guess i am happy with Hamilton’s skill, but I just feel like he’s not the kind of player I want in the 1st pair. I think he’s just too soft, and if Gio ages out, he’s kinda hopped. I wonder if we have someone to play with him after that? Will he continue that success without Gio? 

 

Yups, we are between a rock and a hard place right now.  Yet, you know what.  I would do a major re-tool in a heartbeat and aim for a Cup contender in 2020/21.  Forget next season and the season after that.  We are young enough honestly.  It's going to be okay.

 

Trade Gio.  What?  But we will suck next year right?  Yes, yes we will suck next year and even the season after.  But 2021 bro.

 

Look farther into the future and decide on a top 3 of Valimaki - Hamilton top pair.  Kulak - Fox second pair.  So this means trade Brodie, Hamonic, Andersson, and Gio.  You can't tell me we can't get something good for those 4 that would set us up to be lethal in 2021.

 

I could go on but ya, it won't happen with this regime.  Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups, we are between a rock and a hard place right now.  Yet, you know what.  I would do a major re-tool in a heartbeat and aim for a Cup contender in 2020/21.  Forget next season and the season after that.  We are young enough honestly.  It's going to be okay.

 

Trade Gio.  What?  But we will suck next year right?  Yes, yes we will suck next year and even the season after.  But 2021 bro.

 

Look farther into the future and decide on a top 3 of Valimaki - Hamilton top pair.  Kulak - Fox second pair.  So this means trade Brodie, Hamonic, Andersson, and Gio.  You can't tell me we can't get something good for those 4 that would set us up to be lethal in 2021.

 

I could go on but ya, it won't happen with this regime.  Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

 

Yup,

 

i am happy we Gio though. It’s hard when it looks like you’re the only one that cares. 

[MAC331]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups, we are between a rock and a hard place right now.  Yet, you know what.  I would do a major re-tool in a heartbeat and aim for a Cup contender in 2020/21.  Forget next season and the season after that.  We are young enough honestly.  It's going to be okay.

 

Trade Gio.  What?  But we will suck next year right?  Yes, yes we will suck next year and even the season after.  But 2021 bro.

 

Look farther into the future and decide on a top 3 of Valimaki - Hamilton top pair.  Kulak - Fox second pair.  So this means trade Brodie, Hamonic, Andersson, and Gio.  You can't tell me we can't get something good for those 4 that would set us up to be lethal in 2021.

 

I could go on but ya, it won't happen with this regime.  Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

I think you have the target date correct in which to expect tis team to be true contenders. Just keep building by staying with and adding quality players. I don't think you rip the heart out of the team and trade your Leader in Giordano. If we have troublemaker and players that are not contributing to the team trade them or waive them. Bringing in a new Coach allows for serious analysis of what you have as a team good and bad.

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups, we are between a rock and a hard place right now.  Yet, you know what.  I would do a major re-tool in a heartbeat and aim for a Cup contender in 2020/21.  Forget next season and the season after that.  We are young enough honestly.  It's going to be okay.

 

Trade Gio.  What?  But we will suck next year right?  Yes, yes we will suck next year and even the season after.  But 2021 bro.

 

Look farther into the future and decide on a top 3 of Valimaki - Hamilton top pair.  Kulak - Fox second pair.  So this means trade Brodie, Hamonic, Andersson, and Gio.  You can't tell me we can't get something good for those 4 that would set us up to be lethal in 2021.

 

I could go on but ya, it won't happen with this regime.  Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

 

Sounds good in practice.  Ask EDM or BUFF about how long it takes.  EDM has one player worth that pain, but just barely.  BUFF has one plus a new one coming.  Does that justify the years of pain?

 

I have no illusions about Gio.  He's great now, but will decline.  How soon is the bigger question.  Can't let an Iggy situation happen again.  

 

Saying that, it has to be the right moves.  Trading Gio for picks doesn't make sense.  Same for Brodie.  Call is a re-tool or whatever, but you can keep most of the core and still contend.  Assuming you want to.  Replace most of the bottom 6 with the right mix.  Drop Stone and trade one of Gio or Brodie.  Otherwise, you are rebuilding the same pieces again.  Trade Hammy and you need another Hammy.  Fox is one thing, but he's more of a PP QB than all offence.  Valimaki can replace Brodie.  Most likely.

 

Dube is going to be good.  Mangiapane has something like the 10th best p/gp in the AHL over the years.  He's going to be a difference maker as a sniper.  Andersson will be a faster/better version of Wideman in his prime.  Maybe one other player or two that will shake out of the AHL.  

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sounds good in practice.  Ask EDM or BUFF about how long it takes.  EDM has one player worth that pain, but just barely.  BUFF has one plus a new one coming.  Does that justify the years of pain?

 

I have no illusions about Gio.  He's great now, but will decline.  How soon is the bigger question.  Can't let an Iggy situation happen again.  

 

Saying that, it has to be the right moves.  Trading Gio for picks doesn't make sense.  Same for Brodie.  Call is a re-tool or whatever, but you can keep most of the core and still contend.  Assuming you want to.  Replace most of the bottom 6 with the right mix.  Drop Stone and trade one of Gio or Brodie.  Otherwise, you are rebuilding the same pieces again.  Trade Hammy and you need another Hammy.  Fox is one thing, but he's more of a PP QB than all offence.  Valimaki can replace Brodie.  Most likely.

 

Dube is going to be good.  Mangiapane has something like the 10th best p/gp in the AHL over the years.  He's going to be a difference maker as a sniper.  Andersson will be a faster/better version of Wideman in his prime.  Maybe one other player or two that will shake out of the AHL.  

Just a idea if BT were to trade both Hamilton and Stone is sign Mike Green RDS as a UFA.

I think you plan for Valimaki, Mangiapane and Dube to start in the A. Andersson should already be part of the plan.

[Khrox]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Just a idea if BT were to trade both Hamilton and Stone is sign Mike Green RDS as a UFA.

I think you plan for Valimaki, Mangiapane and Dube to start in the A. Andersson should already be part of the plan.

I feel like Mike Green would be a downgrade over Dougie. He's a few years off of having those kind of offensive seasons that would replace Dougie's scoring, but also, even though he has gotten better, he's still arguably worse than Dougie in the D-zone. That would be "I'm trading for someone of similar defensive skill, but worse offense because we need a change." And the price savings wouldn't even be that big, Dougie at 5.75 or Green at what will mostly be 5? I'll take Dougie every single time.

[MAC331]

56 minutes ago, Khrox said:

I feel like Mike Green would be a downgrade over Dougie. He's a few years off of having those kind of offensive seasons that would replace Dougie's scoring, but also, even though he has gotten better, he's still arguably worse than Dougie in the D-zone. That would be "I'm trading for someone of similar defensive skill, but worse offense because we need a change." And the price savings wouldn't even be that big, Dougie at 5.75 or Green at what will mostly be 5? I'll take Dougie every single time.

The conversion is on what we would get for Hamilton to either reload on draft picks or get a very good forward and a few picks. Green was only a valid suggestion if it actually happened, which it could.

[robrob74]

46 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

The conversion is on what we would get for Hamilton to either reload on draft picks or get a very good forward and a few picks. Green was only a valid suggestion if it actually happened, which it could.

 

Trading Hamilton will signify the end of the world. He’s our only possible offensive Dman. I am not serious by the way. ?

 

he is more developed so he could net a bit more. He adds offence, but we had that in our D without him. 

 

Can Valamaki or Andersson replace some of it? If our D can replace it by committee it’s not a big deal. 

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Trading Hamilton will signify the end of the world. He’s our only possible offensive Dman. I am not serious by the way. ?

 

he is more developed so he could net a bit more. He adds offence, but we had that in our D without him. 

 

Can Valamaki or Andersson replace some of it? If our D can replace it by committee it’s not a big deal. 

I suggested DET for their two 1st round picks 6 and 31 with another 2nd round pick . I think that would a fair deal. Nobody is irreplaceable so I would have some confidence in BT to shore up the defensive ranks appropriately.

[robrob74]

13 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I suggested DET for their two 1st round picks 6 and 31 with another 2nd round pick . I think that would a fair deal. Nobody is irreplaceable so I would have some confidence in BT to shore up the defensive ranks appropriately.

 

Mid we could get that, I’d be happy. I guess we’d need to know about draft depth as well. 

 

The biggest detriment to the oilers lack of success is that they drafted 1st in drafts that were very bad on high end talent. How deep were those drafts as well?  Is it that they’re that bad at drafting deep or that the draft years were terrible?

[cccsberg]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Mid we could get that, I’d be happy. I guess we’d need to know about draft depth as well. 

 

The biggest detriment to the oilers lack of success is that they drafted 1st in drafts that were very bad on high end talent. How deep were those drafts as well?  Is it that they’re that bad at drafting deep or that the draft years were terrible?

That's not actually the case.  They picked Hall, RNH(2011), Yakupov(2012) and Mcdavid #1OA.  Instead of RNH they could have picked any of: Shieffle(7), Couturier(8), Hamilton(9), Markus Granlund(45), William Karlsson(53), Kucherov(58) or Gaudreau(104).  Instead of Yakupov they could have picked any of: Galchenyuk(3), Reilly(5), Dumba(7), Trouba(9), Forsberg(11), Maata(22), Gostibehere(78) or Hellebuyck(130).

 

Their lack of success in those two drafts WAS NOT because of a lack of high end talent, its because they made CRAPPY PICKS.  

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

That's not actually the case.  They picked Hall, RNH(2011), Yakupov(2012) and Mcdavid #1OA.  Instead of RNH they could have picked any of: Shieffle(7), Couturier(8), Hamilton(9), Markus Granlund(45), William Karlsson(53), Kucherov(58) or Gaudreau(104).  Instead of Yakupov they could have picked any of: Galchenyuk(3), Reilly(5), Dumba(7), Trouba(9), Forsberg(11), Maata(22), Gostibehere(78) or Hellebuyck(130).

 

Their lack of success in those two drafts WAS NOT because of a lack of high end talent, its because they made CRAPPY PICKS.  

 

Yup, I was also going to say they also could have fell into the1st overall hype on their picks. 

 

Same with us on Bennett. There are better players below him in the draft. 

 

I just couldn’t remember how deep those drafts were.

 

Hall and McDavid were no brainers, but the RNH and Yakupov picks were near busts.

 

you also forgot Seguin.

[cccsberg]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Yup, I was also going to say they also could have fell into the1st overall hype on their picks. 

 

Same with us on Bennett. There are better players below him in the draft. 

 

I just couldn’t remember how deep those drafts were.

They were both pretty deep, with good forwards in 2011 and good D in 2012.  Their pick of RNH in 2011 hasn't worked out terrible, he's a good player, he just hasn't developed as well as a few others in retrospect.  As I recall in 2012 they were desperate for D but got caught up in the hype and made a terrible pick of Yakupov.  Man, they had half dozen D that would have been home runs.... Too bad for them, good for the rest of us... Of course, if they did make a good pick in 2012 they likely would not have been in the running for Mcdavid.

[conundrumed]

28 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Mid we could get that, I’d be happy. I guess we’d need to know about draft depth as well. 

 

The biggest detriment to the oilers lack of success is that they drafted 1st in drafts that were very bad on high end talent. How deep were those drafts as well?  Is it that they’re that bad at drafting deep or that the draft years were terrible?

The Oilers picked consensus #1 every time, like everyone does. Unfortunately their development wasn't a nurturing one, but a "here's the keys to the city" one, imo.

Now imagine if they kept guys like Gagner, Cogliano, Brodziak instead of throwing them under the bus?

Exactly the types of players they now lack...

They wanted to be the high-flyin' Oil of yore. But managed to forget they had grinders back then too, or just completely undervalued them.

[MAC331]

40 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Mid we could get that, I’d be happy. I guess we’d need to know about draft depth as well. 

 

The biggest detriment to the oilers lack of success is that they drafted 1st in drafts that were very bad on high end talent. How deep were those drafts as well?  Is it that they’re that bad at drafting deep or that the draft years were terrible?

I'm no expert on the depth aspect of any draft, just go by what I read or fortunate enough to see. Top10 you should be getting a good useable talent for your team.

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

The Oilers picked consensus #1 every time, like everyone does. Unfortunately their development wasn't a nurturing one, but a "here's the keys to the city" one, imo.

Now imagine if they kept guys like Gagner, Cogliano, Brodziak instead of throwing them under the bus?

Exactly the types of players they now lack...

They wanted to be the high-flyin' Oil of yore. But managed to forget they had grinders back then too, or just completely undervalued them.

 

Very true! Those guys could’ve been great depth to go with their picks.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I'm no expert on the depth aspect of any draft, just go by what I read or fortunate enough to see. Top10 you should be getting a good useable talent for your team.

Closer to Top 20 imo.

Then there's still decent depth to 60.

Oliver Wahlstrom would check a lot of boxes for us if we were at 6. Committed to BU next year. 30-36 would still get you good prospects, without a doubt.

Using your Detroit scenario.

[Khrox]

With one of our 4th rounders, (or a third if we move up, it's debatable if he'll be available in the 4th), I would take a gamble on Russian C/LW Ivan Morozov (Right hand shot C/LW). He's 6'1, 179 pounds, split this season between the MHL and the KHL. Overall, he has no major weaknesses, but again, his best strength is the fact that he is a hard working 200 foot player. Playmaking could be a bit better (especially if you want him to develop as a C), but that is also offset by the fact that he has a pretty good shot as well. At this point, it seems that the biggest question mark is whether he's going to continue developing in Russia as Center, or as a Winger. With the so-called "Russian Factor", he should be there in the fourth (at earliest, the third). But he seems like the kind of player that if he were born in say... Oshawa, or Kelowna, he'd be a lock for a late first/early second.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/396897/ivan-d.-morozov

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Khrox said:

With one of our 4th rounders, (or a third if we move up, it's debatable if he'll be available in the 4th), I would take a gamble on Russian C/LW Ivan Morozov (Right hand shot C/LW). He's 6'1, 179 pounds, split this season between the MHL and the KHL. Overall, he has no major weaknesses, but again, his best strength is the fact that he is a hard working 200 foot player. Playmaking could be a bit better (especially if you want him to develop as a C), but that is also offset by the fact that he has a pretty good shot as well. At this point, it seems that the biggest question mark is whether he's going to continue developing in Russia as Center, or as a Winger. With the so-called "Russian Factor", he should be there in the fourth (at earliest, the third). But he seems like the kind of player that if he were born in say... Oshawa, or Kelowna, he'd be a lock for a late first/early second.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/396897/ivan-d.-morozov

 

I am all for gambling on swinging for the fences. I don’t think our team does that enough. I think our scouts play it too safe.

[Khrox]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I am all for gambling on swinging for the fences. I don’t think our team does that enough. I think our scouts play it too safe.

I've been taking a look at some Russian prospects. Especially because they are the most likely to be skilled and still slip in the draft (again, that whole "Russian Factor" thing). Those teams with good scouting in Russia seem to do pretty well with their players (Washington, Detroit not too long ago). I think it's more of a two-fold thing. The whole "They might not sign and play in the AHL because they can make more money playing in the KHL", which can be a factor. But the other factor I feel like a lot of good players from Russia are either undrafted, or slip, is because unless they come to either the CHL, or USHL (or possible, but not common, the NCAA), they just don't get scouted. Not many teams have a lot of overseas scouting, and with Russia's shaky history with the NHL, it is considerably less scouted overall than the other European leagues (and also, the MHL/KHL is huge, and has teams in multiple countries, and even if you focus on the ones just in Russia, the country is huge and spread out). This means that to come out of Russia while still doing your junior's/developmental years there, either you were super highly skilled and a borderline "can't miss" prospect (Ovechkin, Malkin, Kuznetsov for example), a swing for the fences pick (Slepyshev, Tryamkin, Mamin), or they are already established in their leagues and coming over to NA later which doesn't always work out depending on how quickly they adapt to the NA game (Panarin, Shaipachyov, Zaitsev, Soshnikov). But I really do think that the middle rounds (3 and 4) you could get some real good players out of Russia just because they aren't scouted as much, and play in Russia. Hell, some of them, if they were born in North America would easily be late firsts early seconds, and not have to deal with the Don Cherry hate. And the beautiful thing is, the 3/4 round are the best rounds to swing on guys who might be risks when it comes to overseas. If you develop really strong scouting in Russia, you could probably grab some top end talent in the 5th or 6th rounds (I won't make claims like that for Finland/Sweden or other major Euro hockey countries, because those countries are much more thoroughly scouted than Russia).

[JTech780]

If we managed to get a late 1st or early 2nd, there are two players that I think are getting really over looked and I would take are:

 

Ty Dellandrea: RHS C/RW, he can skate, he has skill, he works hard and is good a both ends of the ice. His numbers don't jump out at you, but that's because he had zero help while playing on a terrible Flint team.

 

K'Andre Miller: LHS D, he has size, good skating ability, and thinks the game well. He isn't flashy, and probably won't be a point producer but he is just one of those guys that can play in every situation and get the job done. 

 

I think a lot of the draft publications are sleeping on these two and I think they will end up being better than where they are slotted to go.

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

If we managed to get a late 1st or early 2nd, there are two players that I think are getting really over looked and I would take are:

 

Ty Dellandrea: RHS C/RW, he can skate, he has skill, he works hard and is good a both ends of the ice. His numbers don't jump out at you, but that's because he had zero help while playing on a terrible Flint team.

 

K'Andre Miller: LHS D, he has size, good skating ability, and thinks the game well. He isn't flashy, and probably won't be a point producer but he is just one of those guys that can play in every situation and get the job done. 

 

I think a lot of the draft publications are sleeping on these two and I think they will end up being better than where they are slotted to go.

If we were to trade Brodie and Stone we should be able to end up with a few 2nd rounders one would think. These two would be the types of adds we should be going for to keep some quality in the farm.

[robrob74]

14 hours ago, MAC331 said:

If we were to trade Brodie and Stone we should be able to end up with a few 2nd rounders one would think. These two would be the types of adds we should be going for to keep some quality in the farm.

 

Do you think Brodie only nets a 2nd? Or is that in top of another player?