So Where do we go from here? Analysis & Predictions

[JTech780]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

We could use a refresher. 

 

My aunt asked why Canadian teams are so bad in the NHL. I said the American teams tend to be better at scouting and drafting and the dollar/tax difference makes it more desirable to play in the states. But I think it’s scouting and development to some degree.

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that Canadian markets don't have the patience to sit through prolonged rebuilds, so the owners and/or GM's tend to rush the rebuilds. Owners tend to want the instant gratification that is playoff revenue and they want that as soon as possible.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that Canadian markets don't have the patience to sit through prolonged rebuilds, so the owners and/or GM's tend to rush the rebuilds. Owners tend to want the instant gratification that is playoff revenue and they want that as soon as possible.

 

I definitely think that’s a main reason! It’s huge. Yet if they build “right” they’d be in the playoffs for longer stints and more often.

[ABC923]

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

For good reason, the flames scouting takes a beating. But their 15-17 drafts so far have been excellent. I'm very confident we'll get the results if we are willing to play them more. 

I don't think scouting is an issue for this team anymore. 

I would say our draft scouts have been doing well.  It’s our professional scouts that still seem to miss more than they hit.  I can’t remember the last time we traded/signed a ufa that made a significant impact.  Probably Frolik. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

7 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

But yet , a coach , with a Stanley Cup on the line.. feels he needs him in the lineup ,   over a speedy scoring winger that costs over $5M/yr 

Take Tom Wilson out of the Caps lineup and Reaves is back in the pressbox. Thats all it boils down to.

[phoenix66]

11 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Take Tom Wilson out of the Caps lineup and Reaves is back in the pressbox. Thats all it boils down to.

and Buff.. and Lucic .. and any other attempt at cheap shotting our guys.

Again , doesn't have to be Reaves .. just right now maybe outside of Wilson who I don't even know is attainable , I cant think of another better Hybrid player . We need one . .

 

They didnt score, so I'm sure that will be the basis of replies, but .. minute to go.. in need of a goal , or 2.. and who does Gallant have on the ice ? Just says he's not being pigeon holed into a role .

[phoenix66]

Don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting a real sense of Deja vu watching the final , to our '04 cup run and there's a big lesson here .

Vegas has  gotten this far on a sense of house money , happy to be here , beating the odds ..   

The finals I believe is the first series they entered as favourites, and now suddenly expectation is now here , they for the first time feel they can lose . they're facing adversity and pressure ..and you can see the cracks finally appearing .

Credit fully to Washington for playing them right , but they are not playing like they did in rounds 1-3

They have 2 guys I believe on that team with a cup (Maybe 1, does Neal have one ?)  and MAF is maybe the only one not showing the pressure..

 

it's Flames '04 al over again .. Rhett Warrener has said more than once  that the mistake they made was not playing the same way .. happy , fun ..play their game and let it happen .. there's a big difference between believing you can win , and admitting you can lose 

 

this is why, even with promising kids , you need veteran experience on a team.. guys like Versteeg for example,  bring more value than just their stats 

[MAC331]

17 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

and Buff.. and Lucic .. and any other attempt at cheap shotting our guys.

Again , doesn't have to be Reaves .. just right now maybe outside of Wilson who I don't even know is attainable , I cant think of another better Hybrid player . We need one . .

 

They didnt score, so I'm sure that will be the basis of replies, but .. minute to go.. in need of a goal , or 2.. and who does Gallant have on the ice ? Just says he's not being pigeon holed into a role .

I would say toughness is an ingredient we lack. You are right it doesn't have to be Reaves, it could be Coyle MIN or even another Engelland. The opposition has to know there will be repercussion for any liberties taken with their team mates. I would love to have another Ferland without a soft head. I would love to have about 6 Jerome Iginlas, players that take care of business when required. Reaves may be on the tail end of enforcer types moving out but I think we could use him for a season.

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I would say toughness is an ingredient we lack. You are right it doesn't have to be Reaves, it could be Coyle MIN or even another Engelland. The opposition has to know there will be repercussion for any liberties taken with their team mates. I would love to have another Ferland without a soft head. I would love to have about 6 Jerome Iginlas, players that take care of business when required. Reaves may be on the tail end of enforcer types moving out but I think we could use him for a season.

yep.. its too bad Kane signed, he could have been a nice pursuit . As much as i cant believe I'm saying this, I'd bring Iggy in for a PTO.. see if he has 4th line wheels .

[MAC331]

1 minute ago, phoenix66 said:

yep.. its too bad Kane signed, he could have been a nice pursuit . As much as i cant believe I'm saying this, I'd bring Iggy in for a PTO.. see if he has 4th line wheels .

Sorry not a Kane fan, heard way to many stories of what a dirtbag he is socially. I also don't like seeing past greats hanging on so a no from me on Jerome. He should have hung them up 3 years ago. I would love to see us obtain Neal, he is a winner wherever he goes and plays the game right.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

Sorry not a Kane fan, heard way to many stories of what a dirtbag he is socially. I also don't like seeing past greats hanging on so a no from me on Jerome. He should have hung them up 3 years ago. I would love to see us obtain Neal, he is a winner wherever he goes and plays the game right.

I definitely like Neal 

 

meh , i figure its called a tryout for a reason . We'll be in China , we need a few . Let him play the games here , nothing to lose. He shows he cant cut it , he likely retires and he got to play his last games in a #12 Flames Jersey. Best case, he surprises and becomes that token 4th line vet everybody rallies around 

[MAC331]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I definitely like Neal 

 

meh , i figure its called a tryout for a reason . We'll be in China , we need a few . Let him play the games here , nothing to lose. He shows he cant cut it , he likely retires and he got to play his last games in a #12 Flames Jersey. Best case, he surprises and becomes that token 4th line vet everybody rallies around 

Sorry not buying in on the Iginla movement. LOL

Let's learn from the Jagr fiasco and not block another young player from his opportunity.

[phoenix66]

12 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Sorry not buying in on the Iginla movement. LOL

Let's learn from the Jagr fiasco and not block another young player from his opportunity.

see , I don't think that was a fiasco . I would do it all over again , even in hindsight 

Its unfortunate we didn't bring him in for camp, and that he got injured , but even in his time here he had a major impact 

He taught Johnny to take his gme to the next level, Bennett was starting to play his best hockey.. I believe Janko really benefited from him.

Even if he only got 20 points himself all year I think you would have seen more residual effect from everybody . What he brings you just cant see on a scoresheet 

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

see , I don't think that was a fiasco . I would do it all over again , even in hindsight 

Its unfortunate we didn't bring him in for camp, and that he got injured , but even in his time here he had a major impact 

He taught Johnny to take his gme to the next level, Bennett was starting to play his best hockey.. I believe Janko really benefited from him.

Even if he only got 20 points himself all year I think you would have seen more residual effect from everybody . What he brings you just cant see on a scoresheet 

I know what you are saying but the flipside was everyone else gets pushed out or back from any plans for them. Just my thinking but if we wanted to find out what we had in Lazar he should have played at least 3rd line RW. Instead we saw Jankowski left in the AHL and Lazar without that position and our bottom 6 became a makeshift mess IMO.

Right now I think BT needs to buyout Brouwer so he doesn't cause the same effect this coming season.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I would say toughness is an ingredient we lack. You are right it doesn't have to be Reaves, it could be Coyle MIN or even another Engelland. The opposition has to know there will be repercussion for any liberties taken with their team mates. I would love to have another Ferland without a soft head. I would love to have about 6 Jerome Iginlas, players that take care of business when required. Reaves may be on the tail end of enforcer types moving out but I think we could use him for a season.

 

I feel like we can use more than one and I’d like to get one on the backend and at forward.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

and Buff.. and Lucic .. and any other attempt at cheap shotting our guys.

Again , doesn't have to be Reaves .. just right now maybe outside of Wilson who I don't even know is attainable , I cant think of another better Hybrid player . We need one . .

 

They didnt score, so I'm sure that will be the basis of replies, but .. minute to go.. in need of a goal , or 2.. and who does Gallant have on the ice ? Just says he's not being pigeon holed into a role .

 

Buff is a good player.  He hits to separate the puck from the player.  Players like Reaves drag you into the muck.  He cheap-shots a player, they cheap-shot our player.  The playoffs bring out that kind of play as it digresses into a battle.  The finals become last man standing.

 

Reaves is out there for a couple of reasons.  Draw a penalty.  Disrupt the goalie.  He's not particularly good at either, since he takes as many as he draws.  

 

Have you been more impressed with Beagle?  Team first guy, not selfish   Wins draws.  Kills penalties.  Big presence.  RHS.  If you want a guy to stand up for your team, then he's a better choice.  He probably won;t get $1.75m next deal unless it's short term.  

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Buff is a good player.  He hits to separate the puck from the player.  Players like Reaves drag you into the muck.  He cheap-shots a player, they cheap-shot our player.  The playoffs bring out that kind of play as it digresses into a battle.  The finals become last man standing.

 

Reaves is out there for a couple of reasons.  Draw a penalty.  Disrupt the goalie.  He's not particularly good at either, since he takes as many as he draws.  

 

Have you been more impressed with Beagle?  Team first guy, not selfish   Wins draws.  Kills penalties.  Big presence.  RHS.  If you want a guy to stand up for your team, then he's a better choice.  He probably won;t get $1.75m next deal unless it's short term.  

I like Beagle too, but I like Smith-Pelley more 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I like Beagle too, but I like Smith-Pelley more 

 

I guess my point is that we need to construct a team based on skills first.  Can they skate?  Can they score goals?  Can they play without the puck?  Can they provide toughness without sacrificing those other skills?  Can they draw more penalties than they take?

 

We need scoring.

We need guys that have hockey IQ.

We need to take the puck away from the other teams.

If guys only check one box, then they are useless to us.

 

 

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I guess my point is that we need to construct a team based on skills first.  Can they skate?  Can they score goals?  Can they play without the puck?  Can they provide toughness without sacrificing those other skills?  Can they draw more penalties than they take?

 

We need scoring.

We need guys that have hockey IQ.

We need to take the puck away from the other teams.

If guys only check one box, then they are useless to us.

 

 

I disagree, as that is unrealistic. You need the right mix of players that complement each other. Not every player is a 200' player , not every player is a goalscorer 

LIke my example earlier,  I would have no problem with Thomas Vanek .. all he does is score goals

but if I'm the coach, he's never seeing a D Zone start , never playing the Penalty kill, one of the top 2 pairs will be on the ice with him at all times and his linemates will know how to play that way 

But if its low time and we need a goal, or its powerplay .. he's going over the boards almost every time 

[Khrox]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I like Beagle too, but I like Smith-Pelley more 

I enjoy what DSP brings, but it's a different position than Beagle. Beagle is also a great face off guy. You've seen it in the playoffs, but Washington will do this in the regular season too. They'll put out Beagle and Eller (Beagle being a right hand, Eller being a left hand), and then in the last minute of a game, just keep icing the puck if they can't get out. It works because no matter which side the faceoff is on, they have a strong faceoff guy (and Beagle is incredibly good at faceoffs, career average of 56%, with his last few years being 58%, and a career playoff average of 58% with several years, including this year, over 60%). He does pretty good scoring as well, I mean, 20-30 points (and averaging 10 goals) from a 4th line forward/faceoff specialist? That's exactly the kind of thing the Flames have lacked the last few years (though I do have hope for Shore to put up those kind of numbers, hopefully he can work on his faceoffs a bit)

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I disagree, as that is unrealistic. You need the right mix of players that complement each other. Not every player is a 200' player , not every player is a goalscorer 

LIke my example earlier,  I would have no problem with Thomas Vanek .. all he does is score goals

but if I'm the coach, he's never seeing a D Zone start , never playing the Penalty kill, one of the top 2 pairs will be on the ice with him at all times and his linemates will know how to play that way 

But if its low time and we need a goal, or its powerplay .. he's going over the boards almost every time 

I think depth starts with you 13 and 14th forwards into your 7th defenseman and backup Goalie. Then the farm players readiness to cover off injuries or poor performances. For the most part BP will want players that can play this fast relentless style but it doesn't hurt to have a few other elements in your repertoire .

BTW I don't think Vanek would be a consideration by BT.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I disagree, as that is unrealistic. You need the right mix of players that complement each other. Not every player is a 200' player , not every player is a goalscorer 

LIke my example earlier,  I would have no problem with Thomas Vanek .. all he does is score goals

but if I'm the coach, he's never seeing a D Zone start , never playing the Penalty kill, one of the top 2 pairs will be on the ice with him at all times and his linemates will know how to play that way 

But if its low time and we need a goal, or its powerplay .. he's going over the boards almost every time 

 

When I said check one box, I mean ones like toughness.  That is useless by itself.  A goalscorer that can;t play without the puck and causes as many goals against is not going to cut it.  Especially if he can;t PK or draw penalties.

 

Yes, not all players check all boxes, but I'm tired of players that barely tick one box. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

13 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

and Buff.. and Lucic .. and any other attempt at cheap shotting our guys.

Again , doesn't have to be Reaves .. just right now maybe outside of Wilson who I don't even know is attainable , I cant think of another better Hybrid player . We need one . .

 

They didnt score, so I'm sure that will be the basis of replies, but .. minute to go.. in need of a goal , or 2.. and who does Gallant have on the ice ? Just says he's not being pigeon holed into a role .

Anyone that can effectively dust up with Reaves is probably just as one dimensional. If Wilson could get out of his habit of getting suspended I'd be a bigger fan. I know I'll get alot of heat for this but if you want someone who has a physical presence, not totally 1 dimensional, and can be a good 4th line throw in? Why not just sign Stewart? 1M or less for the year, I think the risk is worth it.

[phoenix66]

9 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Anyone that can effectively dust up with Reaves is probably just as one dimensional. If Wilson could get out of his habit of getting suspended I'd be a bigger fan. I know I'll get alot of heat for this but if you want someone who has a physical presence, not totally 1 dimensional, and can be a good 4th line throw in? Why not just sign Stewart? 1M or less for the year, I think the risk is worth it.

He was my original 1st choice , still think its a good fit 

[JTech780]

9 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Anyone that can effectively dust up with Reaves is probably just as one dimensional. If Wilson could get out of his habit of getting suspended I'd be a bigger fan. I know I'll get alot of heat for this but if you want someone who has a physical presence, not totally 1 dimensional, and can be a good 4th line throw in? Why not just sign Stewart? 1M or less for the year, I think the risk is worth it.

 

My biggest issue with Stewart is that the give a crap meter barely moves with this guy. In all the games I watched of him with the Flames, it looked like there just wasn't any kind of effort being put in. The size, skill and toughness package is intriguing, but he just doesn't put any of those tools to use. So I would say pass, we can make better use of the cap space and roster spot.

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

My biggest issue with Stewart is that the give a crap meter barely moves with this guy. In all the games I watched of him with the Flames, it looked like there just wasn't any kind of effort being put in. The size, skill and toughness package is intriguing, but he just doesn't put any of those tools to use. So I would say pass, we can make better use of the cap space and roster spot.

I actually saw that different.

gotta remember he came in cold, GG played him everywhere if he played him at all, so he never had a chance to get a rhythm in a new system . Not everybody is Evander Kane who comes in and looks like he's been there all along .

He's only a year removed from 6g 8p in is first 6 games to start last season (injury fill in ) before he got moved down when the guy came back 

 

I seem to be the only person who put any stock in it , but his reaction after scoring the goal he did for us told me a ton about his character.. he's a team first guy , that cares .

The fact he's  pounded on Lucic before too doesn't hurt