Which Left Wing Will Make the Flames Roster?

[MAC331]

42 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Therein lies the rub.  Russell is not a good d-man.  His compete level and shotblocking is the reason he has a job this year.  Smart?  Sure.  Talented?  No.  If your only problem with Bouma is his injury history, then I don't know what to say.  

Maybe say nothing because your assessment of the player is totally wrong. If he was so bad he wouldn't be in such demand from the time he came into the NHL.

Tell me what is it that Bouma does so wrong as a 4th liner that you don't like. If you are going to question my judgement about a players ability you better offer up more than " I don't know what to say". If you think I'm stupid when it comes to the topic of hockey I can tell you, you are also wrong about that.

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I am in full agreement with you on this. When we signed this contract my original thought was "ewwwwwwwwwwwohhhhhhhhhhh boy!" I forgot that it was a 3 year deal. That makes it worse. 

 

What was so difficult was, the guys playing on the team back then, we knew they weren't going to stay in the spots they were playing as better players progressed or were signed. There was another reason to think that the production level was going to drop. 

Is Bouma overpaid, yes. Is his contract stopping us from signing someone else, I don't think so right now. If he can stay healthy on the 4th line he allows us to see what Ferland can do higher up a line or 2, he isn't really blocking anyone.

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Is Bouma overpaid, yes. Is his contract stopping us from signing someone else, I don't think so right now. If he can stay healthy on the 4th line he allows us to see what Ferland can do higher up a line or 2, he isn't really blocking anyone.

 

But, do we always want to be spending to the Cap? If we don't have to, what's the point? I get what you're saying, but I'd rather not overspend when we don't have to and then there's the opportunity to make a deal at the deadline without worrying about the cap, if we want to.

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

But, do we always want to be spending to the Cap? If we don't have to, what's the point? I get what you're saying, but I'd rather not overspend when we don't have to and then there's the opportunity to make a deal at the deadline without worrying about the cap, if we want to.

 

Why not? What value in is unused cap space? Not a hard rule but generally speaking you need to spend to win.

 

either way, Bouma is a small part of the issue with why the Flames are at the cap. Having almost 9 million in 2 bottom pairing dmen (1 of them hurt in smid) and a 3.5 million 4th line center is why they are at the cap right now. If Bouma is your worst contract that isn't a bit deal, when its 1 of 4 bad deals (and IMO soon to be 5 with Brouwer) that's where you enter into trouble. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

I dont see the bouma contract as a problem contract, honestly once alot of the bigger number contracts come off the books this offseason, bouma will be a drop in the bucket. Honestly 2.2 million would be a problem if we were paying our big name guys 10 million like say the blackhawks but at this point 10 million is coming off the books this offseason, then we have to sign sam bennett. The interesting point will be how much sam bennett gets and then how much we replace wideman for, then the stajan/bouma contracts might become problematic.

 

Just on that note, once this offseason hits we will have 19 million in cap space. With that we need to resign sam bennett, ferland, chiasson, hathaway, and versteeg at forward. On D we need to replace or sign wideman, kevin, and engelland. 19 million is alot of space to really sign sam bennett, aquire a top 4 defender, and then fill out our 4th line/bottom pairing. 

[cross16]

14 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

I dont see the bouma contract as a problem contract, honestly once alot of the bigger number contracts come off the books this offseason, bouma will be a drop in the bucket. Honestly 2.2 million would be a problem if we were paying our big name guys 10 million like say the blackhawks but at this point 10 million is coming off the books this offseason, then we have to sign sam bennett. The interesting point will be how much sam bennett gets and then how much we replace wideman for, then the stajan/bouma contracts might become problematic.

 

Just on that note, once this offseason hits we will have 19 million in cap space. With that we need to resign sam bennett, ferland, chiasson, hathaway, and versteeg at forward. On D we need to replace or sign wideman, kevin, and engelland. 19 million is alot of space to really sign sam bennett, aquire a top 4 defender, and then fill out our 4th line/bottom pairing. 

Need 2 goalies too. None under contract for next year. 

 

Get what you saying though there is going to be room but flames will need to be prudent too. Cap room will be disappearing quickly once you start resigning people. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Need 2 goalies too. None under contract for next year. 

 

Get what you saying though there is going to be room but flames will need to be prudent too. Cap room will be disappearing quickly once you start resigning people. 

Right good point, I forgot about the goalies duh.

 

But yea that cap space will go quick, but I dont see us having that many big name contracts to sign. Im assuming bennett will come in lower then mony unless he goes on a huge tear in the second half. Ferland might come in around 1.5 million, I would assume. The place im most worried about is that other top 4 defender, and getting a solid goalie under contract.

[kehatch]

42 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Why not? What value in is unused cap space? Not a hard rule but generally speaking you need to spend to win.

 

either way, Bouma is a small part of the issue with why the Flames are at the cap. Having almost 9 million in 2 bottom pairing dmen (1 of them hurt in smid) and a 3.5 million 4th line center is why they are at the cap right now. If Bouma is your worst contract that isn't a bit deal, when its 1 of 4 bad deals (and IMO soon to be 5 with Brouwer) that's where you enter into trouble. 

 

Bouma doesn't have the worst contract when measured in dollars.  But it is one of our worst contracts when measured in value.  

• Wideman gets paid too much sure.  But he has put up over a 0.5 PPG average in his time in Calgary and outside of one season he has given us top 4 minutes. 
• I hate the Stajan contract (especially considering term) but he is a big part of the recent turn around.  He may play generous bottom line minutes, but plays tough defensive zone minutes and he does it really well.  This allows the coach to give his offensive lines offensive starts.  
• Smid was capable of top 4 minutes before his injury.  Since then he has been on the LTIR so he has had limited impact on the Flames bottom line. 
• Engelland is overpaid, but he has been putting up really solid bottom pairing minutes and he has done spot duty in the top 4. 

All of those guys (minus Smid) make us better and likely couldn't be replaced from guys in the system.  Bouma has missed over 50% of the games since being signed and has produced at a 15-point pace.  His possession numbers are poor.  His PK numbers are poor.  He is arguably a worse option then Ferland, Hathaway, or Hamilton (all guys available at 800K or less), The 1.4+ million extra we are spending on Bouma could be spent to improve this team regardless of what people think about the other contracts.  1.4 million could very well be the difference between adding a difference maker at the deadline and not adding one.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

9 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

All of those guys (minus Smid) make us better and likely couldn't be replaced from guys in the system.  Bouma has missed over 50% of the

games since being signed and has produced at a 15-point pace.  His possession numbers are poor.  His PK numbers are poor.  He is arguably a worse option then Ferland, Hathaway, or Hamilton (all guys available at 800K or less), The 1.4+ million extra we are spending on Bouma could be spent to improve this team regardless of what people think about the other contracts.  1.4 million could very well be the difference between adding a difference maker at the deadline and not adding one.  

Im not arguing that bouma is a good player. But I really think youre over exaggerating a bit, I really doubt we will be adding this season, so doesnt really matter. Next season we dont really know what will happen, but I could see the arguement then depending on moves but I dont see it being the end of the world. The following season hes gone, so it wont really matter. SOO hypothetically this contract affects us for what one season if we decide to be buyers next year. 

[kehatch]

20 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Im not arguing that bouma is a good player. But I really think youre over exaggerating a bit, I really doubt we will be adding this season, so doesnt really matter. Next season we dont really know what will happen, but I could see the arguement then depending on moves but I dont see it being the end of the world. The following season hes gone, so it wont really matter. SOO hypothetically this contract affects us for what one season if we decide to be buyers next year. 

 

Why wouldn't we be buyers this season?  The Flames are a cap team with a core intact.  There is every reason to think they will try and add at the deadline if we remain in the hunt.  I am not suggesting that Bouma's contract is the end of the world.  I just don't agree with this idea that it is only 2.2 million so it doesn't matter that much and I think the other overpaid Flames are at least contributing in valuable ways (and all but one of those contracts expire before next season).

 

People were really worried that Giordano might get 8 but were relieved he got 6.8.  You can say the same thing about the Gaudreau, Hamilton, and Monahan contracts.  Matt Stajan at 1.5-million would be fine but at 3.1 its a terrible contract.  We like Frolik at 4.3 but would you like him at close to 6?  We are just not supposed to care because we wasted the 1.4 million on a fourth liner instead of a good or high end player?  1.4 million matters and it shouldn't have been wasted on a fourth liner who can easily be replaced with players from your system.  Especially not on a 3-year deal.

 

Its done.  Treliving has learned.  Let's hope Bouma can stay healthy and turn it around a bit.  But it was a mistake and one that has and will continue to impact the team.  

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Maybe say nothing because your assessment of the player is totally wrong. If he was so bad he wouldn't be in such demand from the time he came into the NHL.

Tell me what is it that Bouma does so wrong as a 4th liner that you don't like. If you are going to question my judgement about a players ability you better offer up more than " I don't know what to say". If you think I'm stupid when it comes to the topic of hockey I can tell you, you are also wrong about that.

In your opinion.  That's all it is.  Doesn't make you a talent scout or anything.  If you can point out how Bouma makes us a better team, then that is fine.  All you are saying is his injuries is the only thing that bothers you about the player. That's not a glowing review.  I'm trying to understand the great demand there was for Bouma that you alluded to.  I don't recall any.  He was a middling 4th liner when he made the Flames full-time and has grown on a lot of people for his thunderous hits.  He's had exactly one season where he posted better than 4th line numbers. Doesn't make him any great talent. 

 

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I feel you are stupid.  I don't resort to trashing a person for their opinions.  

 

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

47 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Why wouldn't we be buyers this season?  The Flames are a cap team with a core intact.  There is every reason to think they will try and add at the deadline if we remain in the hunt.  I am not suggesting that Bouma's contract is the end of the world.  I just don't agree with this idea that it is only 2.2 million so it doesn't matter that much and I think the other overpaid Flames are at least contributing in valuable ways (and all but one of those contracts expire before next season).

 

People were really worried that Giordano might get 8 but were relieved he got 6.8.  You can say the same thing about the Gaudreau, Hamilton, and Monahan contracts.  Matt Stajan at 1.5-million would be fine but at 3.1 its a terrible contract.  We like Frolik at 4.3 but would you like him at close to 6?  We are just not supposed to care because we wasted the 1.4 million on a fourth liner instead of a good or high end player?  1.4 million matters and it shouldn't have been wasted on a fourth liner who can easily be replaced with players from your system.  Especially not on a 3-year deal.

 

Its done.  Treliving has learned.  Let's hope Bouma can stay healthy and turn it around a bit.  But it was a mistake and one that has and will continue to impact the team.  

Fair enough, you make a good point. I dont disagree with you necessarily, BT did make a mistake with that signing. I just dont think it will hurt as much as say the bickell contract hurt the blackhawks. 

[xstrike]

9 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Why not? What value in is unused cap space? Not a hard rule but generally speaking you need to spend to win.

What's the value? Ask the Coyotes how their free cap is doing. Unspent cap isn't wasted cap. It gives you flexibility for trades and gives some leverage to get better players if you take on a bit of a meh contract. It's not like the cap you start with is the cap ceiling for you for the season.

 

Just my take. We are not a budget team like Arizona but my point is still valid I think. 

[MAC331]

15 hours ago, travel_dude said:

In your opinion.  That's all it is.  Doesn't make you a talent scout or anything.  If you can point out how Bouma makes us a better team, then that is fine.  All you are saying is his injuries is the only thing that bothers you about the player. That's not a glowing review.  I'm trying to understand the great demand there was for Bouma that you alluded to.  I don't recall any.  He was a middling 4th liner when he made the Flames full-time and has grown on a lot of people for his thunderous hits.  He's had exactly one season where he posted better than 4th line numbers. Doesn't make him any great talent. 

 

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I feel you are stupid.  I don't resort to trashing a person for their opinions.  

 

 

Where did I ever say there was a great demand for Bouma, show me ? No you trash players you no longer like or that get paid to much, they can't be gone fast enough for you.

We get it.

I believe the demand I alluded it pertained to Russell.

[travel_dude]

18 hours ago, MAC331 said:

 

19 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Therein lies the rub.  Russell is not a good d-man.  His compete level and shotblocking is the reason he has a job this year.  Smart?  Sure.  Talented?  No.  If your only problem with Bouma is his injury history, then I don't know what to say.  

Maybe say nothing because your assessment of the player is totally wrong. If he was so bad he wouldn't be in such demand from the time he came into the NHL.

Tell me what is it that Bouma does so wrong as a 4th liner that you don't like. If you are going to question my judgement about a players ability you better offer up more than " I don't know what to say". If you think I'm stupid when it comes to the topic of hockey I can tell you, you are also wrong about that.

 

 

47 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Where did I ever say there was a great demand for Bouma, show me ? No you trash players you no longer like or that get paid to much, they can't be gone fast enough for you.

We get it.

I believe the demand I alluded it pertained to Russell.

 

If you were alluding to Russell, then I'm even more confused.  Traded twice before he played with us.  Got 3rd pair minutes mostly before he came here.  The demand for him at last year's TDL was Dallas mostly. And we got a good return for him.  His time in Dallas was not great.  This summer he went unsigned until EDM picked him up.  

 

You need to stop this antagonistic approach to posting.  You have an opinion and so do I.  That applies to players and usage. You specifically attack opinions as "trash players you no longer like".  You have done this repeatedly.  Yet, you only do this to certain people.   I'm not the first person to call out a player.  But you ignore a post in the same thread that says similar things.  In future, try to keep this to a discussion of opinions and not attacking the poster.  Keep it civil, and I will not respond negatively.

[cross16]

8 hours ago, xstrike said:

What's the value? Ask the Coyotes how their free cap is doing. Unspent cap isn't wasted cap. It gives you flexibility for trades and gives some leverage to get better players if you take on a bit of a meh contract. It's not like the cap you start with is the cap ceiling for you for the season.

 

Just my take. We are not a budget team like Arizona but my point is still valid I think. 

 

If you are a team that wants to win why are you taking on "meh" contracts?

 

I get what your ae saying but Flames arn't rebuilding like the Coyotes are. Flames need to use their resources to try and win, Coyotes are using them to rebuild their franchise, different ball games. I'm not suggesting you spend money just to spend money but when you a team like the Flames and you've got the majority of your core and you want to win it makes much more sense to be a cap team. 

[MAC331]

46 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

If you were alluding to Russell, then I'm even more confused.  Traded twice before he played with us.  Got 3rd pair minutes mostly before he came here.  The demand for him at last year's TDL was Dallas mostly. And we got a good return for him.  His time in Dallas was not great.  This summer he went unsigned until EDM picked him up.  

 

You need to stop this antagonistic approach to posting.  You have an opinion and so do I.  That applies to players and usage. You specifically attack opinions as "trash players you no longer like".  You have done this repeatedly.  Yet, you only do this to certain people.   I'm not the first person to call out a player.  But you ignore a post in the same thread that says similar things.  In future, try to keep this to a discussion of opinions and not attacking the poster.  Keep it civil, and I will not respond negatively.

Just you. You should look back and address why Russell was traded for by the teams he went to at those teams, they traded for him because he is a good defenseman. You say his time in Dallas wasn't great, I would say he was one of their better defensemen during their time in the playoffs. Players often out price themselves and I think this was more the reason for waiting out the offseason and not desperately having to play with EDM.

I don't like the way you go about belittling some of the players on our team so I will certainly take issue with some of your posts. Take some of our own advise.

[MAC331]

39 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

If you are a team that wants to win why are you taking on "meh" contracts?

 

I get what your ae saying but Flames arn't rebuilding like the Coyotes are. Flames need to use their resources to try and win, Coyotes are using them to rebuild their franchise, different ball games. I'm not suggesting you spend money just to spend money but when you a team like the Flames and you've got the majority of your core and you want to win it makes much more sense to be a cap team. 

I would say BT inherited a few pricey contracts and stayed with some in order to surround a very young core with the proper amount of experience. I like the approach being taken to have veteran pairings on forward lines with one of the younger players where possible. I like the current pairings on our defense as a good mix. A lot will correct itself with money in the wrong places after this season.

[robrob74]

9 hours ago, xstrike said:

What's the value? Ask the Coyotes how their free cap is doing. Unspent cap isn't wasted cap. It gives you flexibility for trades and gives some leverage to get better players if you take on a bit of a meh contract. It's not like the cap you start with is the cap ceiling for you for the season.

 

Just my take. We are not a budget team like Arizona but my point is still valid I think. 

 

 

I think we don't have to spend to the cap to be good. But using the cap wisely and being good is what you strive for. 

The breathing room allows you to take on a contract if an opportunity arises. While being a cap team, that flixibility is negated. 

It is like pay day, do you spend the whole cheque at once? Or do save a little in case you need some down the road? 

 

Like you, I think we could use more flex. Although some contracts are getting off the books... 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

If you are a team that wants to win why are you taking on "meh" contracts?

 

I get what your ae saying but Flames arn't rebuilding like the Coyotes are. Flames need to use their resources to try and win, Coyotes are using them to rebuild their franchise, different ball games. I'm not suggesting you spend money just to spend money but when you a team like the Flames and you've got the majority of your core and you want to win it makes much more sense to be a cap team. 

 

I think we are still building and taking on too many high contracts could price us back into a rebuild. I think, & maybe it is your thought too, maybe after next year is the "win now" time.

i worry about taking on extra contracts when young guys are going to need raises.

[cross16]

20 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think we are still building and taking on too many high contracts could price us back into a rebuild. I think, & maybe it is your thought too, maybe after next year is the "win now" time.

i worry about taking on extra contracts when young guys are going to need raises.

 

Depends on the contract, but the only "core" piece that is due for a contract soon is Bennett and a goalie. Outside of that the next critical negotiation will be Tkachuk, 3 yeras away, so while yes you don't want to bring on bad deals that cost you later, the majority of the Flames core is under contrat for the foreseable future. 

 

Agree, don't take on bad deals but I also think we should expect the Flames to be a cap team from here on out. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Just you. You should look back and address why Russell was traded for by the teams he went to at those teams, they traded for him because he is a good defenseman. You say his time in Dallas wasn't great, I would say he was one of their better defensemen during their time in the playoffs. Players often out price themselves and I think this was more the reason for waiting out the offseason and not desperately having to play with EDM.

I don't like the way you go about belittling some of the players on our team so I will certainly take issue with some of your posts. Take some of our own advise.

 

You can agree or disagree all you like.  Personal attacks will not be tolerated. 

 

[MAC331]

13 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You can agree or disagree all you like.  Personal attacks will not be tolerated. 

 

Don't take it so personal then. I don't like a lot of what you say about players but if you would prefer I not comment on your postings that fine with me. Consider it done.

[xstrike]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

If you are a team that wants to win why are you taking on "meh" contracts?

 

I get what your ae saying but Flames arn't rebuilding like the Coyotes are. Flames need to use their resources to try and win, Coyotes are using them to rebuild their franchise, different ball games. I'm not suggesting you spend money just to spend money but when you a team like the Flames and you've got the majority of your core and you want to win it makes much more sense to be a cap team. 

What I meant was they had the ability to take a contract (Datsyuk, Bolland) to get a good young player. In other words, having the space allowed them to make a trade that was lopsided in their favor because having cap room is an asset in itself.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, xstrike said:

What I meant was they had the ability to take a contract (Datsyuk, Bolland) to get a good young player. In other words, having the space allowed them to make a trade that was lopsided in their favor because having cap room is an asset in itself.

 

I understand that. I just don't think that is a viable or a good strategy for a team that is trying to win.