The Rebuild over?

[kehatch]

The rebuild might not be over, but we are past the point where we are trading away our best players just because they are over 30.

 

We are full of youth, the majority of the youth are now getting paid big dollars, and we are a couple of pieces away from being truly competitive. Like I said above, I am looking to next season for the Flames to take that step. 

 

Trading Giordano would be a big step back in terms of icing a competitive team. We would be wasting prime years of our top young (and now highly paid) guys while we looked for a replacement. No thank you. 

[jjgallow]

On 28/10/2016 at 10:04 AM, cross16 said:

 

They can. Only NMC have to be protected. 

 

Thanks Cross.

 

Then, it's a point of discussion, as FF said.  I take it back.

 

I still think he has more value than the negative impact of his salary.  I tried to start a discussion one, and two years ago about trading him.   Some felt similarly, most felt he was "indispensible".   

 

It is amazing how quickly indispensible can change to "leave unprotected".   If the Flames were able to get some good value from him, I would definitely be supportive of that and I think it's the better direction.    But as discussed with Iggy, Bouwmeester, etc, I would also be dissapointed if we trade him for some late picks and future AHLers.     Upgrading a first round pick, for instance, would be more interesting.

 

Leaving him unprotected may have its place, given his salary.  But I would LIKE to think that his play is going to pick up here considerably, and that won't be a serious consideration.   If it does, I would suggest we passed up many great opportunities to realize value.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

The rebuild might not be over, but we are past the point where we are trading away our best players just because they are over 30.

 

IMHO, we will be past that point when our best players aren't over 30.

[kehatch]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

IMHO, we will be past that point when our best players aren't over 30.

 

Like today? You need to get over the age thing. Everytime has veteran players on the roster. The majority of our roster is very young. 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Like today? You need to get over the age thing. Everytime has veteran players on the roster. The majority of our roster is very young. 

 

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2017

 

Not today, imho.  Giordano is still out best player imo, even if he started out slumping.

[kehatch]

16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2017

 

Not today, imho.  Giordano is still out best player imo, even if he started out slumping.

 

Because you think he is our best player you think we should trade him? My point is the Flames are a young team with a majority of our core being very young. We aren't at the beginning of a rebuild looking to trade anyone over a certain age that has value. We aren't an elder team thst needs yo get younger . Trading Giordano makes us worse in a time we should be looking to get better. 

[DirtyDeeds]

NHL/Yahoo Fantasy Rankings have Gio ranked 11th best D in league.

 

In comparison our next best is Brodie at #34

 

Not sure we can afford to lose/trade him unless we get something similar in return.

[jjgallow]

18 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Because you think he is our best player you think we should trade him? My point is the Flames are a young team with a majority of our core being very young. We aren't at the beginning of a rebuild looking to trade anyone over a certain age that has value. We aren't an elder team thst needs yo get younger . Trading Giordano makes us worse in a time we should be looking to get better. 

 

ok, let's back this up.

 

You alluded to him as our best player.   Now, you are accusing me of that.  I'm sure you have some sort of explanation but that's how it went.

 

I am assuming you did this because you claimed that "the majority of our roster is very young", and I showed you that this is not really true.

 

So, suppose we were to go back to the original topic for a second, we both agree on some level that the rebuild is not over. 

[cross16]

The flames have only  3 players under contract next season that are over 30 and one of them is Gio. They are also the 10th youngest team in the league. 

 

This is a young team, no question. 

[kehatch]

27 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

ok, let's back this up.

 

You alluded to him as our best player.   Now, you are accusing me of that.  I'm sure you have some sort of explanation but that's how it went.

 

I am assuming you did this because you claimed that "the majority of our roster is very young", and I showed you that this is not really true.

 

So, suppose we were to go back to the original topic for a second, we both agree on some level that the rebuild is not over. 

 

If your trying to argue the core of this team isn't young your wrong. It isn't debatable. 

 

I have said the rebuild isn't over. That isn't the debate. You are suggesting that we should trade Giordano because he is over 30. I am saying that we shouldn't trade one of our best players nor do we have a pressing need to get younger (see paragraph one) . 

[jjgallow]

34 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

If your trying to argue the core of this team isn't young your wrong. It isn't debatable. 

 

I have said the rebuild isn't over. That isn't the debate. You are suggesting that we should trade Giordano because he is over 30. I am saying that we shouldn't trade one of our best players nor do we have a pressing need to get younger (see paragraph one) . 

 

If you want to change your original statements (Bolded above), there is nothing wrong with that.

 

But if you want to make it appear that I was originally arguing with those now changed statements...

 

Come on buddy.

 

Life's too short for that.

[kehatch]

Not sure if your trolling or serious. But rather the  try and have an intelligent conversation with the crazy dude in the housecoat I am just going to step away silently. Sheesh. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

ok, let's back this up.

 

You alluded to him as our best player.   Now, you are accusing me of that.  I'm sure you have some sort of explanation but that's how it went.

 

I am assuming you did this because you claimed that "the majority of our roster is very young", and I showed you that this is not really true.

 

So, suppose we were to go back to the original topic for a second, we both agree on some level that the rebuild is not over. 

 

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2017

 

Not today, imho.  Giordano is still out best player imo, even if he started out slumping.

 

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

IMHO, we will be past that point when our best players aren't over 30.

You are almost arguing with yourself here, you literally said gio is our best player, and then made it out like kehatch was putting words in your mouth.

[The_People1]

The "never done rebuilding" idea makes no sense philosophically because it would mean a "build" began in the Calgary Flames first season in 1980 and the Flames have been rebuilding season after season ever since.  Since rebuilds never end then it can never begin again.

 

No, our rebuild was over the moment we made the playoffs two years ago.  Ever since then, we have entered the "re-tooling" phase.  Since then, we aren't breaking things down and changing the core anymore.  Our core is stabilized and we are merely playing around with peripheral pieces as we wait for our core to mature. Most importantly, our purpose is no longer to build or change a core per se.  Our purpose is to improve, make the playoffs, and win the Cup. These goals are not consistent with a team in rebuild mode which generally consists of a main goal of putting together a new core group of players.

[Carty]

5 hours ago, kehatch said:

 try and have an intelligent conversation with the crazy dude in the housecoat

 

      

[CheersMan]

There are 30 teams rebuilding right now.  Meanwhile, LV is working on their initial build while Seattle and Quebec continue to scratch out their design.  LA, CHI and PIT won the most recent Cups, yet I doubt either team figures their building is done.  With all the building going on, the NHL has to be pretty happy.

[Flyerfan52]

12 hours ago, CheersMan said:

There are 30 teams rebuilding right now.  Meanwhile, LV is working on their initial build while Seattle and Quebec continue to scratch out their design.  LA, CHI and PIT won the most recent Cups, yet I doubt either team figures their building is done.  With all the building going on, the NHL has to be pretty happy.

Correct. Every year the cap makes SC winners like Chicago turn over a large part of their roster so they keep the necessary core players & rebuild what they've lost in the trades until the TD.

No rosters should be viewed as set in stone in even normal years but with this 1 looking to be volatile due to the upcoming chance of losing players to LV the options are even more of a puzzle.

We lucked into the Versteeg signing @ 0.95 but as a UFA next year does anyone expect quality like that available on cheap deals.

 

I figure all 30 GMs & their staff will be keeping a closer eye on every game than normal. They want a really good idea of what any player offered can be compared to the cost in assets of any kind.

[jjgallow]

16 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

You are almost arguing with yourself here, you literally said gio is our best player, and then made it out like kehatch was putting words in your mouth.

 

1.   This isn't the Giordano thread

2.  I do think he's currently our best player (not our most valuable)

3.  kehatch said it first.   

4.  Who cares?  Like, Really?  It's got nothing to do with the debate.

 

Which was:

 

On 29/10/2016 at 8:49 AM, kehatch said:

The rebuild might not be over, but we are past the point where we are trading away our best players just because they are over 30.

 

We are full of youth, the majority of the youth are now getting paid big dollars, and we are a couple of pieces away from being truly competitive. Like I said above, I am looking to next season for the Flames to take that step. 

 

Trading Giordano would be a big step back in terms of icing a competitive team. We would be wasting prime years of our top young (and now highly paid) guys while we looked for a replacement. No thank you. 

 

So, to recap, kehatch said we are past the point of trading our best players because they are over 30.

 

I'm saying, when our best players aren't over 30, we'll be past that point.

 

We can have a big ol discussion about all sorts of stuff around the periphery of the discussion and flirting carefully around anything to the point or relevant.

 

But in terms of the rebuild, the overall age of our team is Not young, and we still rely heavily on players over 30.  

 

So the question is, are we done with realizing the value of core players exiting their prime?

 

Personally, I say not until you're contending for the cup.   A lot of it comes down to what you believe a rebuild is for.   Many see it as a recovery, or as staying afloat.   I see it as a trajectory with a clear goal (the cup).  It turns into a cyclical arguement, with the question being asked...do we really want to have a perpetual rebuild (like the Oilers)?      Clearly we don't.    But we might be starting to have some Oiler jealousy too.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

So, to recap, kehatch said we are past the point of trading our best players because they are over 30.

 

I'm saying, when our best players aren't over 30, we'll be past that point.

 

We can have a big ol discussion about all sorts of stuff around the periphery of the discussion and flirting carefully around anything to the point or relevant.

 

But in terms of the rebuild, the overall age of our team is Not young, and we still rely heavily on players over 30.  

 

So the question is, are we done with realizing the value of core players exiting their prime?

 

Personally, I say not until you're contending for the cup.   A lot of it comes down to what you believe a rebuild is for.   Many see it as a recovery, or as staying afloat.   I see it as a trajectory with a clear goal (the cup).  It turns into a cyclical arguement, with the question being asked...do we really want to have a perpetual rebuild (like the Oilers)?      Clearly we don't.    But we might be starting to have some Oiler jealousy too.  

What players are we relying on that are over 30 exactly?

 

Gio? 

 

Or are you refering to stajan, engelland, wideman?

[jjgallow]

Just now, AlbertaBoy12 said:

What players are we relying on that are over 30 exactly?

 

Gio? 

 

Or are you refering to stajan, engelland, wideman?

 

Just Engelland

[cross16]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Well, at least this year we have reason to believe the play is sustainable. At least I hope it is. Like you said, the system. 

 

I just feel like Elliott still hasn't been very comfortable in net yet. The coaches are giving him easier games to try get him into a groove. It's the NHL and no game is supposed to be easy, but his opponents, minus the Canucks, have been less than stellar. 

 

I like how the team team is playing for the most part. PP and PK are coming around. It is a huge jump considering we were last about a month ago.

 

I agree. 1000X better, I do agree thats a bit of an exaggeration but I don't think the difference between last year's team and this year team is that small. Their speal teams are night and day, which make a big impact, and they are a fair bit better in the D zone this year. Last year they were a bottom 10 team in Corsi F, Scoring chances against and high dangers scoring chances again. Giving them a bit of a break for the first 10 games or so, they are in the top half of the league in all of those categories. That's a big improvement.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I agree. 1000X better, I do agree thats a bit of an exaggeration but I don't think the difference between last year's team and this year team is that small. Their speal teams are night and day, which make a big impact, and they are a fair bit better in the D zone this year. Last year they were a bottom 10 team in Corsi F, Scoring chances against and high dangers scoring chances again. Giving them a bit of a break for the first 10 games or so, they are in the top half of the league in all of those categories. That's a big improvement.

 

 

Their play in the last 20 games has made me (almost) completely forget their first 15-20 games. Are the numbers sustainable, probably not to the extent they've been, but we can probably be consistently in the top 10 the rest of the way.

 

i agree with GG that specialty teams win in today's NHL. 

[cccsberg]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

On one hand, the Flames have goaltended their way to me thinking about eating my words by end of season.

 

On the other hand, at 15th overall in the NHL, this is, imho, a Worst Case scenario and the ultimate problem with band-aids.

 

With nearly zero chance of winning the cup,

With not exceptionally good odds of making the playoffs,

With nearly zero chance of a top 5 draft pick,

With the bad-aid relying on 30-something goalies, and our next top goaltending prospect (Gillies) not a clear AHL starter.

With Edmonton and Columbus clearly ahead of us in the standings in what appears to be a long term trend

With zero chance of acquiring prospects at the trade deadline

 

Essentially, more of the same drift we've seen over the last 10 years.

 

We've watched other teams take it on the chin in their rebuilds, and actually take their rebuilds seriously.   We did the "right thing" by never really committing to any one thing.  And floated through our rebuild with mediocrity, and no solid plan to advance from there.

 

But yes, our 30-something goaltenders have allowed us to be in the middle of the league.  A definite "improvement".

JJ, although there definitely is merit in your arguments, with a couple more wins the Flames would be leading the West and things would look very different.  Also, you have to keep in mind the Flames three supposedly best stars, Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett are ALL struggling yet the team is still doing well.  Add to that Stockton is at or near the top of the AHL West which also bodes well for the future.  

 

Although I don't necessarily disagree with your view the way the team is currently playing, I believe if the team can get our three under-performing stars going, either by line-up, coaching or perhaps new players the team will take another step forward and be close to right in the mix as a strong playoff team.

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

On one hand, the Flames have goaltended their way to me thinking about eating my words by end of season.

 

On the other hand, at 15th overall in the NHL, this is, imho, a Worst Case scenario and the ultimate problem with band-aids.

 

With nearly zero chance of winning the cup,

With not exceptionally good odds of making the playoffs,

With nearly zero chance of a top 5 draft pick,

With the bad-aid relying on 30-something goalies, and our next top goaltending prospect (Gillies) not a clear AHL starter.

With Edmonton and Columbus clearly ahead of us in the standings in what appears to be a long term trend

With zero chance of acquiring prospects at the trade deadline

 

Essentially, more of the same drift we've seen over the last 10 years.

 

We've watched other teams take it on the chin in their rebuilds, and actually take their rebuilds seriously.   We did the "right thing" by never really committing to any one thing.  And floated through our rebuild with mediocrity, and no solid plan to advance from there.

 

But yes, our 30-something goaltenders have allowed us to be in the middle of the league.  A definite "improvement".

That would be a lot of words to eat, you might get full halfway through. LOL

[cross16]

16 hours ago, jjgallow said:

We've watched other teams take it on the chin in their rebuilds, and actually take their rebuilds seriously.   We did the "right thing" by never really committing to any one thing.  And floated through our rebuild with mediocrity, and no solid plan to advance from there.

 

 

Which teams are those?

 

Outside of Chicago who rebuilt "better" or differently than the Flames?