travel_dude Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I get the sense that management doesn't value Hudler as much as fans do. I think they see a "sell high" scenario and would only bring back Hudler on a contract that reflects a 50-point player. It's too bad because I agree he's been influential in Gaudreau and Monahan's development. He may be key to Bennett's development this season as well. To me, it's simple. Dump Mason Raymond and give a part of his salary to Hudler. Done and done. I really think that Hartley sees Hudler as the guy you don't ever worry about. He will score points playing with Johnny or Bennett or Frolik. Hartley is going to fight any attempts to move Hudler. He wants to win now and for the next few seasons, not down the road sometime. If you are talking about a Vorachek or Tarasenko type player in return, that is different. Those are established players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 What gives you the feeling that management doesn't value Hudler though? I've not seen or heard anything from BT and company that would support this. If its because he doesn't have an extension yet, well that's pretty unfair. I think management had a lot on their plate this summer with the Giordano extension and with RFA's. Management values him but not as much as fans do. We see him as the glue that makes our lines work. Management sees him as a player who rode shotgun to Gaudreau and benefitted greatly from it. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets traded but i think it would be a mistake. Not simple Peeps. Flames need to dump Raymond not to pay Hudler but to pay increases to Gio, Monahan, Gaudreau and then likely Bennett the year after.The Flames need to dump Raymond in order to keep their core, not to be able to pay Hudler. I think the only way Hulder is kep is he has to agree to play for 5.5 or less and they would have to dump all of Raymond, Engelland and Smid and retain very little money to do so. And even then, I think the Flames would be very tight to the cap, year in and year out. Well, we could start with Raymond's salary moving to Hudler and go from there. Hiller, Ramo both can leave via UFA and we sign a more affordable back-up to Ortio as the starter. Solves about $5 to $7-mil in cap headaches. David Jones also leaves $4-mil on the table. The season after that is equally good with Stajan, Engellend, and Smid coming off the books. I don't see a cap issue with the Flames especially if Gaudreau, Monahan, and Bennett agree to bridge deals. The Flames have enough young prospects brewing in the system to replace Jones, Stajan, Engellend, Smid, Hiller, and Ramo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zima Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 They probably will have to buy out Raymond and bit the bullet we have to keep huds hopefully at a fair rate for both team and huds then we need to trade Hills or Rams if we buy out Raymond's contract I believe that takes half his salary off each yr or something like that. If we send him down we still pay his full contract no one is going to take his contract that's for sure so buy out and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Treliving said that it would take a lot to trade Hudler, albeit prior to this season. But they have to offer a lot because he means that much to us. Trade Raymond back to the leafs. They need someone to fill out their top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulstad Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Management values him but not as much as fans do. We see him as the glue that makes our lines work. Management sees him as a player who rode shotgun to Gaudreau and benefitted greatly from it. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets traded but i think it would be a mistake. Where are you getting this from? There's been nothing in the media that even remotely claims this. What are you basing this assumption on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreckening Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Where are you getting this from? There's been nothing in the media that even remotely claims this. What are you basing this assumption on? Exactly. All you have to do is watch Hartley's post game presser from last night to see how much the Flames organization values Jiri Hudler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Where are you getting this from? There's been nothing in the media that even remotely claims this. What are you basing this assumption on? Exactly. All you have to do is watch Hartley's post game presser from last night to see how much the Flames organization values Jiri Hudler. I have NOT heard, read, or seen through actions that BT puts re-signing Hudler as a top priority. I have heard, read, and seen through actions that fans want to re-sign Hudler as a top priority. Therefore, Fans want to re-sign BT more than management does. This does not equal BT wants to get rid of Hudler. Also, Bob Hartley is not "management". Also, I am a fan and so i want to bring back Hudler and i think the simple solution is to move Raymond's contract off the books and give his money to Hudler. You've got Jones, Hiller, and Ramo coming off the books to take care of Giordano, Monahan, and Gaudreau's raises. It's a natural fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulstad Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I have NOT heard, read, or seen through actions that BT puts re-signing Hudler as a top priority. I have heard, read, and seen through actions that fans want to re-sign Hudler as a top priority. Therefore, Fans want to re-sign BT more than management does. This does not equal BT wants to get rid of Hudler. Also, Bob Hartley is not "management". We didn't see, read, or hear anything during the Gio contract negotiations either, although BT did state that signing Gio was a top priority heading into the summer. Other than this, and the "Gio wants $9m", nothing was said until all-of-a-sudden BAM! Gio was signed. Does this mean that Gio wasn't as wanted by management as he was by the fans? Or, perhaps more correctly, Flames brass want to keep this sort of activity to themselves until they have something definite to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 We didn't see, read, or hear anything during the Gio contract negotiations either, although BT did state that signing Gio was a top priority heading into the summer. Other than this, and the "Gio wants $9m", nothing was said until all-of-a-sudden BAM! Gio was signed. Does this mean that Gio wasn't as wanted by management as he was by the fans? Or, perhaps more correctly, Flames brass want to keep this sort of activity to themselves until they have something definite to say. I think the situation is somewhat different with Hudler (although I think he is a good fit) BT went out and got Frolik who could effectively replace Hudler tomorrow. I don't think we have that player yet on Defense. There is little doubt in my mind that Hudler is the maturity factor bringing along Gaudreau and Monahan to the performance level achieved. As Gaudreau and Monahan mature themselves Hudler may or may not be required for the top line. The key for me in signing Hudler to an extention would $$$ no more than 5.5m and no more than 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 We didn't see, read, or hear anything during the Gio contract negotiations either, although BT did state that signing Gio was a top priority heading into the summer. Other than this, and the "Gio wants $9m", nothing was said until all-of-a-sudden BAM! Gio was signed. Does this mean that Gio wasn't as wanted by management as he was by the fans? Or, perhaps more correctly, Flames brass want to keep this sort of activity to themselves until they have something definite to say. You said it yourself, BT stated that signing Giordano was a top priority and then proceeded to re-sign him. We lack this evidence of priority on Hudler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I have NOT heard, read, or seen through actions that BT puts re-signing Hudler as a top priority. I have heard, read, and seen through actions that fans want to re-sign Hudler as a top priority. Therefore, Fans want to re-sign BT more than management does. This does not equal BT wants to get rid of Hudler. Also, Bob Hartley is not "management". Also, I am a fan and so i want to bring back Hudler and i think the simple solution is to move Raymond's contract off the books and give his money to Hudler. You've got Jones, Hiller, and Ramo coming off the books to take care of Giordano, Monahan, and Gaudreau's raises. It's a natural fit. I don't see there being any real issue to re-signing Hudler. At worst, they buy out Raymond and Engelland's final season saving them almost $4m. Smid will be dealt when he is healthy. He has some value. Maybe retained $$. Hudler talks will begin sometime in the new season. BT probably wants to see if last year was repeatable or not. BT needs some leverage if he is looking to sign Hudler for less, and if he gets less than 60 points, the deal will cost less. There is some risk doing that, but you need to see if Hudler is riding Johnny's coattails or vice-versa. I tend to think Hudler just needs to play quality minutes with quality players. Gaudreau is good enough to repeat last year's numbers without Hudler, but Hudler will make Bennett better, if they go that route. Consider a Johnny-Bennett-Hudler combo and a Ferland-Monahan-Frolik combo for a minute. Scary good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OilersAreHighlyFlammable Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Is it just me, or is JH looking even better than last season?I'm going to throw a prediction out there right now; He'll lead the Flames in points this season with 70-80.Agree with above lines as well, that's a handsome top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 Is it just me, or is JH looking even better than last season? I'm going to throw a prediction out there right now; He'll lead the Flames in points this season with 70-80. Agree with above lines as well, that's a handsome top 6. It's not you. It him. He has looked more confident than he did last year. He knows which of his passes are going to work. He knows where Hudler is going to be. I may be alone in breaking up the Johnny/Mony duo, but Bennett gets in the dirty areas. You can shelter that line a bit better, because you have the Mony/Frolik possession monster taking the heat. Add some Ferkland to that and you have toughness beyond Frolik. Then you have Bouma-Backlund-Jones to face the best. We have seen some Johnny-Benny magic before. Why not place then in a situation that exploits their skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I've heard the same. It looks like I will be just listening to games so I will be relying on the radio guys to know how the players are doing. The guys raved about his hands looking even better, his control that much more etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I've heard the same. It looks like I will be just listening to games so I will be relying on the radio guys to know how the players are doing. The guys raved about his hands looking even better, his control that much more etc. He isn't perfect yet on zone entries, but he is getting close. He is starting to take more shots from weird angles, so look for more rebounds. He is still going wide a lot, but he is keeping it real in pre-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khrox Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 So anyone catch the FlamesTV video with the Flames doing some training with the Fire Department as part of their association? Bollig turned around and kept helping Mony (who it turns out is scared of heights) and in the video mentions (as Mony is rappelling down the building, obviously scared) "There we go, that's my little brother." in referrence to Mony. Definitely wont complain if he is taking on the big-brother role to some of our younger guys. Could definitely play a part in his season (especially if he has a bit of a breakout year like McGrattan did when he took on that big-brother role to Mony). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I don't see a cap issue with the Flames especially if Gaudreau, Monahan, and Bennett agree to bridge deals. The Flames have enough young prospects brewing in the system to replace Jones, Stajan, Engellend, Smid, Hiller, and Ramo. Yes if the Flames want the bridge deal route they can make it work but I don't think thas a wise way to go with those 3. To me you only bridge a guy if you need to see more, wehter it be consistantly or another gear etc. if you've got a player that has shown his worth then I think the bridge deal is too risky. I think a fair deal in the 7-8 year range for Monahan right now is in and around the 6.5 range. If you delay that by 2-3 yeras I think the number gets closer to 8. Not a fan of the brdige deals for those guys I think you lock them, again pending Gaudreau doesn't take a step back this season and Bennett is who we think he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 In the economic times we are in now, there's uncertainty with the cap and with economy staying down. That's a huge bargaining chip right there and it was proven in the Gio negotiations. Hopefully, we can get 'em signed at around 5-5.5 per. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Even with the economic times, Ryan O'Reily got 7.5 mill per on a 7 year deal from the Sabres. Not sure Monahan is worth 2 mill per year less on a 7 or 8 year deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Yes if the Flames want the bridge deal route they can make it work but I don't think thas a wise way to go with those 3. To me you only bridge a guy if you need to see more, wehter it be consistantly or another gear etc. if you've got a player that has shown his worth then I think the bridge deal is too risky. I think a fair deal in the 7-8 year range for Monahan right now is in and around the 6.5 range. If you delay that by 2-3 yeras I think the number gets closer to 8. Not a fan of the brdige deals for those guys I think you lock them, again pending Gaudreau doesn't take a step back this season and Bennett is who we think he is. That's not the "only" reason. Another reason is to keep their cap hit low in the short term so you can pad the rest of the line-up with veterans and make a run for the Cup. Otherwise, you get into the Oilers situation where you don't get full value the first few years of their deals and the cap hit is used up and you can't fill the rest of the line-up with quality players. The Oilers have been spending more money than the Flames and getting less results. Like, look at the Klefbom deal for example. The Oilers won't get full value for another 3 seasons or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 That's not the "only" reason. Another reason is to keep their cap hit low in the short term so you can pad the rest of the line-up with veterans and make a run for the Cup. Otherwise, you get into the Oilers situation where you don't get full value the first few years of their deals and the cap hit is used up and you can't fill the rest of the line-up with quality players. The Oilers have been spending more money than the Flames and getting less results. Like, look at the Klefbom deal for example. The Oilers won't get full value for another 3 seasons or so. Klefboom is an extreme example though and IMO a terrible deal. Thats paying a player who hasn't yet earned it and thats been the OIlers problems. Not so sure I think the Flames are in the same boat. What do you think Monahan is worth on a 3 year deal? i would say at least 4 probably closer to 5 million. If you can get him for the next 7 or 8 years in the 6 million range you wouldn't want to? You would rather save 1.5 to 2 mill per for 3 years and then sign him for likely 1.5 to 2 mill MORE then you could have now? I agree when it guys like Klefbom and they havn't really earned it yet. But when it guys like Monahan who have established themselves I think you do long term deal everytime so long as they number is fair. I think the Flames can lock up guys like a Monahan, Gaudreau etc they will be positioned just fine for a cup run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 That's not the "only" reason. Another reason is to keep their cap hit low in the short term so you can pad the rest of the line-up with veterans and make a run for the Cup. Otherwise, you get into the Oilers situation where you don't get full value the first few years of their deals and the cap hit is used up and you can't fill the rest of the line-up with quality players. The Oilers have been spending more money than the Flames and getting less results. Like, look at the Klefbom deal for example. The Oilers won't get full value for another 3 seasons or so. Using a bridge deal when the reason is to save money is basically asking a star player to take a discount to help the team. A loyal player will take a discount, but that would come with term, not a 2 year deal. Mony is the real deal, so why bother doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Klefboom is an extreme example though and IMO a terrible deal. Thats paying a player who hasn't yet earned it and thats been the OIlers problems. Not so sure I think the Flames are in the same boat. What do you think Monahan is worth on a 3 year deal? i would say at least 4 probably closer to 5 million. If you can get him for the next 7 or 8 years in the 6 million range you wouldn't want to? You would rather save 1.5 to 2 mill per for 3 years and then sign him for likely 1.5 to 2 mill MORE then you could have now? I agree when it guys like Klefbom and they havn't really earned it yet. But when it guys like Monahan who have established themselves I think you do long term deal everytime so long as they number is fair. I think the Flames can lock up guys like a Monahan, Gaudreau etc they will be positioned just fine for a cup run. Absolutely. Klefbom has 77 NHL games and hasn't earned the big dollars. Monahan has a 22 goal and a 31 goal year in two full seasons. It is very unlikely Monahan gets a bridge deal and it would be a huge mistake on the part of the Flames to do that. Gaudreau still needs to play at or above last seasons pace before we get a clear picture, but I will be surprised if he doesn't play at at least the same level. I wouldn't be shocked to see him at close to a PPG pace this season. It is to early to debate Bennett. We will know more about him after this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 To me the 5-6 year deal at $6mill is the bridge deal for Monahan and Gaudreau. After that deal is up, if they have continued along the same path, you are looking at 7-8 year deals in the $8-10 Mill range for both players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 To me the 5-6 year deal at $6mill is the bridge deal for Monahan and Gaudreau. After that deal is up, if they have continued along the same path, you are looking at 7-8 year deals in the $8-10 Mill range for both players. If you can lock up Mony and Johnny to 8 year deals, then you do it. The Brodie deal is starting to look too short for my liking. He was re-signed when his game was known. Should have bought more of his UFA years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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