Training Camp battles

[JTech780]

If you can lock up Mony and Johnny to 8 year deals, then you do it.  The Brodie deal is starting to look too short for my liking.  He was re-signed when his game was known.  Should have bought more of his UFA years.

 

I get what you are saying, but when Calgary locked up Brodie he still had a lot to prove, for me it wasn't till this past season that he really started coming into his own, and I still think he can improve quite a bit.

 

There are two sides to the negotiation and young players won't want to sign long term extensions unless they are getting top dollar. To lock up Monahan to an 8 year deal you are probably going to have to pay him $7+mill, where as if you go 5 years you can get down to $6mill. A million dollars doesn't really seem like a lot, but with our window to win being the next 5-6 years, saving a bit of cash now to be able to improve depth makes sense.

[cross16]

I agree on the Brodie deal, he hadn't yet proven himself enough to warrant a longer deal. i think the Brodie deal was and is a solid deal for both sides.

 

I'm not sure an 8 year deal takes Monahan into the 7mill plus range. I think an 8 year deal with an escalating dollar figure like:

 

5,5, 6.5,6.5,6.75, 7,7.5, 8 works out to a cap hit of 6.5.

 

Might have to add in a little and there but I think thats a pretty fair deal considering he still would only be 30 when the deal expired and eligible for another contract.  If he goes out this year and puts up 80 plus points, then year this number changes and then i think you are looking at 7 mill plus. either way, I don't think a bridge deal is the rigth way to go for Monahan. Gaudreau i would be more open to a bridge deal but not Monahan. he's proven his value in his league IMO (pending of course he doens't regress this year which i don't expect either).

[travel_dude]

I agree on the Brodie deal, he hadn't yet proven himself enough to warrant a longer deal. i think the Brodie deal was and is a solid deal for both sides.

 

I'm not sure an 8 year deal takes Monahan into the 7mill plus range. I think an 8 year deal with an escalating dollar figure like:

 

5,5, 6.5,6.5,6.75, 7,7.5, 8 works out to a cap hit of 6.5.

 

Might have to add in a little and there but I think thats a pretty fair deal considering he still would only be 30 when the deal expired and eligible for another contract.  If he goes out this year and puts up 80 plus points, then year this number changes and then i think you are looking at 7 mill plus. either way, I don't think a bridge deal is the rigth way to go for Monahan. Gaudreau i would be more open to a bridge deal but not Monahan. he's proven his value in his league IMO (pending of course he doens't regress this year which i don't expect either).

 

I'm not saying the Brodie deal was bad.  I said I'm wishing it was longer.  A certain amount of risk, but long-term (if he worked out) you save cap $$.

 

Mony and Johnny are tied together in my mind.  They are currently our two top forwards.  Kind of like Toews and Kane.  Mony is the leader type that is so dependable.  Johnny is the PP quarterback, flashy winger.  You could argue that a center is more valuable than a winger, but both players impact the team's success.  The LA game before Christmas was the turnaround for the entire team, and it started with Johnny and ended with Gio.

[cross16]

I'm not saying the Brodie deal was bad.  I said I'm wishing it was longer.  A certain amount of risk, but long-term (if he worked out) you save cap $$.

 

Mony and Johnny are tied together in my mind.  They are currently our two top forwards.  Kind of like Toews and Kane.  Mony is the leader type that is so dependable.  Johnny is the PP quarterback, flashy winger.  You could argue that a center is more valuable than a winger, but both players impact the team's success.  The LA game before Christmas was the turnaround for the entire team, and it started with Johnny and ended with Gio.

 

if it was longer then the number would be higher too, keep that in mind. i thikn to add on another year to the Brodie deal the deal would need to be closer to 5 mill to buy another UFA year. Thats the dynamic you play with in negotiations.

 

i'm a prove it type of guy, so if Johnny has the same season or even takes a step forwrad I agree. Until he does I won't tie Monahan with Gaudreau.

[travel_dude]

if it was longer then the number would be higher too, keep that in mind. i thikn to add on another year to the Brodie deal the deal would need to be closer to 5 mill to buy another UFA year. Thats the dynamic you play with in negotiations.

 

i'm a prove it type of guy, so if Johnny has the same season or even takes a step forwrad I agree. Until he does I won't tie Monahan with Gaudreau.

I was actually talking about an 7-8 year deal.  Maybe the AAV is higher, but I'm not so sure.  I think that BT wanted to limit the term to take some of the risk out of it.  

 

With Johnny, it's more of a feeling.  I felt he would be in the 64 point range, based on the way he raises his game every year to date.

I have that same feeling for this year.  He's not going to have to adjust this year.  He's likely going to be on the top line, but still a bit sheltered.  He has the confidence from last year.  He supposedly added some muscle.  

[darth_henning]

I think its way too early to predict what our top 6 looks like even by the end of this year. 

 

Any of the top 6 wingers could wind up flanking either Monahan or Bennett, and its going to depend on chemistry. 

 

We know Johnny-Monahan-Hudler worked wonders. 

 

We don't know how Bennett will play with anyone in the long term. There just isn't enough sample size to know who he gels with as a centerman yet. And that's where we start having to figure out how to juggle. 

 

Johnny will play left wing, Frolick will play right wing. Both Hudler and Ferland can play either RW or LW and I expect we're going to see a lot of juggling for the first 2 or 3 months of those players. 

 

Monahan and Frolick seem to drive possession among the top 6, so ideally I see them on different lines. But if Hudler plays best with Johnny and Bennett, then we go to a possession line and scoring line as our top 6 rather than a more balanced attack.

 

Only time will tell. The good news is all 6 are capable (in theory) of 20 goals (Ferland the only one who might not reach that plateau) and 4 of them are capable of 30. So that's a pretty powerful set of possibilities.  

[cccsberg]

Apparently Colborne injured in the game tonight. Could be one less decision required to start off the season.

[StarkRaving]

Decisions should be easier on defense; anyone who plays with Engelland stinks. 

[travel_dude]

As much as Hartley is looking for a partner for Engelland, I think he has two better players in Spoon and Kulak.  Even Seiloff looked better. Engie has been way too slow against a fast team like the Jets.  When the Jets gain the zone, it;s usually the entire shift spent there.

 

I know it's preseason, but he needs to show more than he did.  The goal was the only positive thing he did.

[StarkRaving]

I like Kulak.  He impressed me last year at the dev camp, and he's better this year.  I doubt he makes the team out of camp, but I bet we see him if there are injuries.

[conundrumed]

Nakladal led the team with near 26 minutes in the 'peg tonite.  I'm guessing he's extremely close to a roster spot. Can't wait for Saturday's last preseason.

I think we "found" a good, developed dman.

[cccsberg]

Nakladal led the team with near 26 minutes in the 'peg tonite.  I'm guessing he's extremely close to a roster spot. Can't wait for Saturday's last preseason.

I think we "found" a good, developed dman.

I agree Nakladal looks like a keeper and will likely make the team.  At this point the only reason to keep Engelland is his toughness/protection which I agree is valuable, and needed.  We didn't see too much of gooney against the Flames last year and I think a couple of our deterrents is part if the reason.  I realize many don't agree with this but I still think its a factor.

[cccsberg]

Apparently David Jones has been very good the last few games although its not showing up on the score sheet.  Raymond also played well last night but no results.  Still believe Raymond goes down on waivers.  Perhaps he gets a lot chance tomorrow but I'd say not...  Shore also having a tough time finding his place so another likely waiver wire candidate.  

 

It'll be tough to lose guys with no return but perhaps that is what it will take.  Perhaps not though as every team has made their team roster and might be loath to change it up at the last minute with an outsider, especially one that is young and unproven...  Well, I guess we will know in a couple of days.

[travel_dude]

I like Kulak.  He impressed me last year at the dev camp, and he's better this year.  I doubt he makes the team out of camp, but I bet we see him if there are injuries.

Kulak and Spoon made the least noticeable errors last night.  Kulak had a couple of awesome defensive plays as well.  Wilson looked bad, but it just seemed his positioning was bad at times.  Nakladal was good and bad.  But, TBH, the announcer kept referring to Nakladal as Wilson, so I wasn't always sure which player made the play.  Seiloff played one of his best games.  He had good first passes and solid positioning.  Other than scoring a stopable goal, Engelland did not look good.  I would give him credit, if he had something good to talk about.

 

Bollig was ok on offense, but there were few glimpses of a Flames cycle game.

Raymond played 25 minutes.  He had flashes of brilliance (really good shots at times), but the rest of the plays died on his stick or he would fall with the puck.  

Ferland was good for most of his shifts.  Somehow he had 12 shots ???

Hathaway was a real grinder.  He will be the next Bouma.

Jooris was his usual impactfull self.  Was 78% on the dot.

Shore and Granlund were good, but had bad FO%.

Backlund was good defensively, but provided little offense.

Bouma was invisible.

Jones played a heavy game.

Bennett is going to be a good player this year.  Still needs to learn how to win faceoffs.

Ortio was good on most of the shots, but the lack of defense made him look bad.  He had at least one "bad" goal.

Colborne's finger looked broken.  Right hand.  Don't know what that means yet.

 

OK, I think it's time to trim the roster.  Time to build chemistry and lines.

[kehatch]

The forward position is becoming pretty clear. Frolik, Hudler, Backlund, Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bouma were going to make this team before camp started and they have done nothing to change that. Ferland, Jones, Bennett, Jooris, Stajan, and Bollig have made the team given their effort in camp.

That gives you:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland

Hudler-Bennett-Frolik

Bouma-Backlund-Jones

Bollig-Stajan-Jooris

The lines may change a bit, but I think those guys are on your team. That leaves Raymond, Granlund, Colborne, Shore, and Byron fighting for the last two spots. If Colborne is healthy I think Byron and Colborne make it. If Colborne is hurt to start the season I think Raymond takes his spot.

Defence is really clear with Nakladal, Wotherspoon, Wilson, and Kulak fighting for the last two spots. I think Nakladal gets one but it is really open after that. At least until Smid and Brodie are back.

I think Ortio gets one of the goalie slots. It's wide open for the second spot though.

[cross16]

Personally i would go Shore over Byron. i think Shore has had the better camp, offers you more flexability at the position and I'm not so sure he clears waivers. Shore is a potential trade candidate, but right now he would have the inside track on the 13th forward spot if i were pickin the team.

[MAC331]

I'm not saying the Brodie deal was bad.  I said I'm wishing it was longer.  A certain amount of risk, but long-term (if he worked out) you save cap $$.

 

Mony and Johnny are tied together in my mind.  They are currently our two top forwards.  Kind of like Toews and Kane.  Mony is the leader type that is so dependable.  Johnny is the PP quarterback, flashy winger.  You could argue that a center is more valuable than a winger, but both players impact the team's success.  The LA game before Christmas was the turnaround for the entire team, and it started with Johnny and ended with Gio.

Rather than thinking in terms of Toews and Kane with a long term deal shouldn't we be thinking in terms like the contracts given to Keith and Seabrook ? Isn't the idea of these secured long term deals to keep the dollar amounts down with guaranteed money. I could see doing this for Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett eventually. Makes sense.

[kehatch]

Personally i would go Shore over Byron. i think Shore has had the better camp, offers you more flexability at the position and I'm not so sure he clears waivers. Shore is a potential trade candidate, but right now he would have the inside track on the 13th forward spot if i were pickin the team.

 

I would have trouble picking only two of Shore, Byron, and Colborne.  I am not a huge fan of Colborne, but he is trending in the right direction and we could see some real progress this season. Shore (as you say) gives us a lot of options.  I really like his ability to play a two way game and his success on the dot.  Byron is super versatile and gives you a lot of speed.  He is a great guy to have as your 13 forward.  

 

I would take two of those three over Raymond or Granlund.  Granlund isn't waiver eligible and can still benefit from the AHL.  Raymond is what he is.  I don't really like what he is.  That said, Raymond just had a good preseason game which might be the excuse Treliving needs to give him a shot on the roster.  To his credit he is the most offensive of the group and he has the most experience.  I think Raymond makes the team personally.  But I would take Shore over him if I was picking.  

[travel_dude]

Rather than thinking in terms of Toews and Kane with a long term deal shouldn't we be thinking in terms like the contracts given to Keith and Seabrook ? Isn't the idea of these secured long term deals to keep the dollar amounts down with guaranteed money. I could see doing this for Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett eventually. Makes sense.

Keith got a "Luongo deals" back when they were still ok.  You could span the money over 13 years and lower the AAV.  Seabrook latest deal is an 8-year Gio deal (AAV that is).

 

BTW, I was talking about the value to the team of Mony and Gaudreau, not suggesting at all they be signed for $10m.  I want them signed for no more than Gio.

[cross16]

I would have trouble picking only two of Shore, Byron, and Colborne.  I am not a huge fan of Colborne, but he is trending in the right direction and we could see some real progress this season. Shore (as you say) gives us a lot of options.  I really like his ability to play a two way game and his success on the dot.  Byron is super versatile and gives you a lot of speed.  He is a great guy to have as your 13 forward.  

 

I would take two of those three over Raymond or Granlund.  Granlund isn't waiver eligible and can still benefit from the AHL.  Raymond is what he is.  I don't really like what he is.  That said, Raymond just had a good preseason game which might be the excuse Treliving needs to give him a shot on the roster.  To his credit he is the most offensive of the group and he has the most experience.  I think Raymond makes the team personally.  But I would take Shore over him if I was picking.  

 

Ya i'm not sure I can even recall a more difficult camp, some good hockey players are not going to make this team. Even during the Sutter years when the team was very competitive and very solid the 4th line always seemed like a lock becuase their depth wasn't good enough to have young guys contend. Great sign and kudos to this orgnaization for the depth they have created.

 

I'm just not a huge a Byron fan either which is why i go Shore. Byron offers you just speed IMO and becuase I think Byron would clear waivers no problem and be usefull depth through out the year. I gave Raymond a chance to come in with a clean slate and perform and IMO he's had a less then stellar camp. Been good at times, but not consistant enough so I agree he shouldn't make the team but at the end of the day I don't think the Flames rae ready to give up on his 3.75 mill contract so I think he starts the year here and they try to get him going.

[travel_dude]

Ya i'm not sure I can even recall a more difficult camp, some good hockey players are not going to make this team. Even during the Sutter years when the team was very competitive and very solid the 4th line always seemed like a lock becuase their depth wasn't good enough to have young guys contend. Great sign and kudos to this orgnaization for the depth they have created.

 

I'm just not a huge a Byron fan either which is why i go Shore. Byron offers you just speed IMO and becuase I think Byron would clear waivers no problem and be usefull depth through out the year. I gave Raymond a chance to come in with a clean slate and perform and IMO he's had a less then stellar camp. Been good at times, but not consistant enough so I agree he shouldn't make the team but at the end of the day I don't think the Flames rae ready to give up on his 3.75 mill contract so I think he starts the year here and they try to get him going.

 

The reality is that Granlund and Hathaway showed better than some waiver eligible guys.  They likely get cut, but I think it is based on their situation.  Raymond is on thin ice right now.  One more bad pre-season game and he is out.  Last night he was the most offensive, but for all that, he still tripped over the blue lines or fell with the puck or had offense die on his stick.

 

It probably doesn't hurt to send Byron down.  He likely isn't claimed.  I like his forechecking and possession game, but not so much his offense.  Shore is going to be a good player, once he is played consistently.  

 

The Kulak/Nakladal/Wotherspoon/Wilson decision is a real tough one.  Wilson is the only one that would face waivers if we signed him.

 

I am open to keeping one of Bollig or Engelland, but not both.  But, Hartley is going to lobby to keep both, because he loves their game (at least the physical side of it).  The ball is in Treliving's court right now.  He can let the coach decide or he can make the tough decisions that most benefit the club, for now and for the future.  I get the sense that some of his opinions are slightly different than Bob's.  

[cross16]

The reality is that Granlund and Hathaway showed better than some waiver eligible guys.  They likely get cut, but I think it is based on their situation.  Raymond is on thin ice right now.  One more bad pre-season game and he is out.  Last night he was the most offensive, but for all that, he still tripped over the blue lines or fell with the puck or had offense die on his stick.

 

It probably doesn't hurt to send Byron down.  He likely isn't claimed.  I like his forechecking and possession game, but not so much his offense.  Shore is going to be a good player, once he is played consistently.  

 

The Kulak/Nakladal/Wotherspoon/Wilson decision is a real tough one.  Wilson is the only one that would face waivers if we signed him.

 

I am open to keeping one of Bollig or Engelland, but not both.  But, Hartley is going to lobby to keep both, because he loves their game (at least the physical side of it).  The ball is in Treliving's court right now.  He can let the coach decide or he can make the tough decisions that most benefit the club, for now and for the future.  I get the sense that some of his opinions are slightly different than Bob's.  

 

i think you could honstly flip a coin between Shore, Hathaway and Granland IMO.  i think all 3 have been solid and I"m not sure I oculd say 1 has stood out over the other. I think a lot of people are going to lean Hathaway but I think that has more to do with him exceding expctations then how he has played.if you just focus on the quality of play and remove what your expectations where, I think Hathaway has a good camp but not enough to uspeate Shore/Granland and of course if its a tie i think you keep the player you might end up losing on waivers.

 

I woudn't worry about waivers with Wilson I think he clears no problem and even if he didn't i don' think it would matter. he started off better then those guys but i don't think has played as well recently. he would be my pick for the 7th dman role strickly based on the fact that i don't lke the idea of any young dman in the 7th dman role, I want them to play. I think Kulak has had the better camp then wotherspoon and right now to me is showing more upside so with Brodie sidlelined longer term that may give him the inside track. if it was a matter of finding someone to play 13-15 mins a night i'm not so sure Kulak would make the team but there is potential they'll need someone on some nights to play over 15 and right now in that role I lean Kulak at least while Brodie is out.

[JTech780]

Pat Steinberg (@Fan960Steinberg) tweeted at 10:34 AM on Fri, Oct 02, 2015:

#Flames forward Drew Shore on waivers today according to colleague @renlavoietva.

I think he gets claimed which is too bad for us, but good for the player as I think he has earned a chance at the NHL level, we are just to crowded at forward.

[The_People1]

The reality is that Granlund and Hathaway showed better than some waiver eligible guys.  They likely get cut, but I think it is based on their situation.  Raymond is on thin ice right now.  One more bad pre-season game and he is out.  Last night he was the most offensive, but for all that, he still tripped over the blue lines or fell with the puck or had offense die on his stick.

 

It probably doesn't hurt to send Byron down.  He likely isn't claimed.  I like his forechecking and possession game, but not so much his offense.  Shore is going to be a good player, once he is played consistently.  

 

The Kulak/Nakladal/Wotherspoon/Wilson decision is a real tough one.  Wilson is the only one that would face waivers if we signed him.

 

I am open to keeping one of Bollig or Engelland, but not both.  But, Hartley is going to lobby to keep both, because he loves their game (at least the physical side of it).  The ball is in Treliving's court right now.  He can let the coach decide or he can make the tough decisions that most benefit the club, for now and for the future.  I get the sense that some of his opinions are slightly different than Bob's.  

 

I like Byron for the PK.  I think he really excelled in that role last season and you don't really replace that with Granlund or Hathaway.

[robrob1974]

Pat Steinberg (@Fan960Steinberg) tweeted at 10:34 AM on Fri, Oct 02, 2015:

#Flames forward Drew Shore on waivers today according to colleague @renlavoietva.

I think he gets claimed which is too bad for us, but good for the player as I think he has earned a chance at the NHL level, we are just to crowded at forward.

I dunno. I don't think he does. But I wouldn't be fussed if he did. We would lose a contract. That helps if we think there is a good option on a waiver claim later, or signing a FA out of college or elsewhere.