Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[cross16]

25 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

 So would your saying a Hubbereau/ Barkov are equal to a Gaudreau/ Lucic how about Dry saddle/ Mc Jesus vs Mags/ Lucic, or Mckinnion/Landeskog Or we can go Point/ Kucherov vs Mags/Dube, it all symantics. The facts are we are slightly above average height adn weight and have below average play. Trying to justify anything other than this club is been poorly constructred and ran is just a switch and bait game. 

 

Not at all. As I've said many times the problem I see here is the Flames don't have the high end talent that teams like the Lightning, Avs, Hurricanes etc do. The "let's get faster, grittier and bigger argument" is IMO completely missing the point. 

 

And the fact that this team is missing the high end talent does not fall squarely on the GM

[cross16]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

it depends on how you evaluate the pieces. There were a lot included in the deal. All of them were average with the exception of Reggie. I wouldn’t say Reggie and Theo were an even trade at anytime. Theo was a top of the line difference maker and Reggie a very good shut down guy. No disrespect to Reggie, but they just aren’t equal.

 

you’re right, we got a very good longer term player in the deal. He helped the team for a long time and was very good at defending. His offence wasn’t terrible but it wasn’t game breaking either. 
 

 I guess the trade off was less goals for, for less goals against. Not sure which is more important. Need to keep the puck out of the net, but also need to put it in more than the opponents do.

 

It really doesn't. Fleury was a pending UFA who was going to walk for nothing and the Flames extracted a top prospect who ended up turning out even better than his prospect status. That's a win 10/10. 

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, rickross said:

For sure they did. He was projecting as a top D man in college, plus he proved his ability to play the game during his team USA invites. The writing was on the wall, Fox was going to be a very good player. I’m sure the Flames sensed he wasn’t buying in and tried and ultimately failed to convinced the player. That cost $ flying around the country to watch and support a prospect, Scouts/GM were likely assigned to keep in very close contact, it’s time and $ consuming. He let us know fairly early on he wasn’t signing but we could have put that energy, time and $ in someone who actually wanted to be here. 

 

I get what you are saying, but him not signing in CGY had nothing to do with disfunction.  We spent money on lesser targets like Bill Arnold and John Gilmour.  You tend to do that will all your picks.  May not have been until the last of his sophomore year that he made that decision.  If he was lying to us, then what are we supposed to do?

 

BTW, I remember watching Team USA and Fox playing the final in the WJC.  He wasn't noticeably better than anyone else out there.  In the season that he chose top go back to college and we traded him, he had dropped off in production.    

[cross16]

31 minutes ago, rickross said:

For sure they did. He was projecting as a top D man in college, plus he proved his ability to play the game during his team USA invites. The writing was on the wall, Fox was going to be a very good player. I’m sure the Flames sensed he wasn’t buying in and tried and ultimately failed to convinced the player. That cost $ flying around the country to watch and support a prospect, Scouts/GM were likely assigned to keep in very close contact, it’s time and $ consuming. He let us know fairly early on he wasn’t signing but we could have put that energy, time and $ in someone who actually wanted to be here. 

 

The vast majority of prospects that you invest time, $ and energy in to don't make it and don't do anything to help your franchise. The Flames turned a 3rd round pick into a top prospect and then used him as a trade asset. Would you have preferred they take another player in the 3rd where they, statistically speaking, would have done the same thing and received nothing?

 

I get it totally sucks watching Fox do what he is doing, I hate it too. I was really mad about the trade because of Fox's inclusion because I thought they had a top prospect on their hands but when you peel it back I don't think there was anything the organization could do. What I don't get though is why this keeps getting spun negatively around towards the Flames. They found a top notch dman in the 3rd round and you have another quality find from your scouting staff, which is becoming more the norm than the exception.

 

I think it's a positive story, so the negative spin I don't get or agree with. It can be that way and still suck to see him do well and wish he was here. 

[travel_dude]

Just saw this and found it interesting....

 

Rick Dhaliwal (@DhaliwalSports)

of Chek News mentioned that Mike Futa has been linked to the Calgary Flames.

He worked for the LA Kings as an AGM. He and Sutter have a strong working relationship.

I wonder if Treliving would move to a POHO role if Futa is brought in.

1:28 PM · May 17, 2021·Twitter Web App

 

Not sure how much stock I put in this, but at least he's a guy may actually have have some sources.

It could also be a ruse. 

[cross16]

Guess we'll see but Rich Dhaliwal is not what I would call a quality reporter or an insider. He's put some stuff out there before, namely that Troy brouwer was about to be traded, so I'm not sure he has sources. 

 

Futa is also low hanging fruit given his history with Sutter. Easy to put that one together

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

I'm not sure its as simple as that personally. They way I look at it is they never drafted a number on center during their rebuild and never drafted an elite player. I do admit that was supposed to be Bennett, but in looking back I do think that was a scouting miss on a lot of fronts. Bennett is a good player but wasn't worthy of the pre draft praise, something I know you were on early. 

 

So while there are certainly decisions in there that they deserve critique for I don't think they missed so much as they didn't time it right. 

 

But there is also no question this organization is still paying for some awful drafting pre 2015. 

 

Fair enough.  I think BT generally overrated our own players.  When he first took over the team, maybe he thought Gillies was our future G.  Monahan and Bennett would be #1/2 Centers.  Reality was, we needed to spend more time in the basement to accumulate more high end talent before making the move to break out.  But he rushed it.

[Thebrewcrew]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Fair enough.  I think BT generally overrated our own players.  When he first took over the team, maybe he thought Gillies was our future G.  Monahan and Bennett would be #1/2 Centers.  Reality was, we needed to spend more time in the basement to accumulate more high end talent before making the move to break out.  But he rushed it.

The worst thing that happened to the team was that 2015 season.

 

They were expected to be in the McDavid derby and instead the team somehow made the playoffs. As a result the expectations were way higher than they should have been

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, rickross said:

That sure is a lot of misses! Especially at a critical time during a rebuild. That much consistency in misses should reflect the many cracks within the Flames philosophy of drafting and developing let alone our basic genetic makeup of this team. Either we just have extremely poor luck or the formulas we are using to rate, draft and sign our players is wrong! 
 

Flames have had too much of a yo-yo philosophy during this rebuild. We were young, then we were truculent, then we we fast, small and skilled...now we are searching for that magical balance but missing some key parts still. Sam Bennet and Adam Fox are perfect examples of what this franchise is failing at. We might get it right sometimes , but it’s as if players never quite reach their full potential while they are Flames. 

 

If we could do it all over again, I would 100% have traded Giordano too when our rebuild began.  I had a feeling that based on his age, he would be too old when our new core would be in their primes to compete.  And now, here we are.  Just short sightedness on BT's part.  It's not even a hindsight thing I'm doing because I think we all knew this day would come for Giordano 6/7 years ago.

 

And Giordano also was so good that he prevented us from tanking for franchise altering talent.

[The_People1]

Just now, Thebrewcrew said:

The worst thing that happened to the team was that 2015 season.

 

They were expected to be in the McDavid derby and instead the team somehow made the playoffs. As a result the expectations were way higher than they should have been

 

Agreed.  BT fooled himself into believing this team was ready.

[Thebrewcrew]

Just now, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.  BT fooled himself into believing this team was ready.

Yes, that's on BT, but also ownership too. The underlying numbers suggested 2015 was a mirage and the next season confirmed it. 

[cross16]

15 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Fair enough.  I think BT generally overrated our own players.  When he first took over the team, maybe he thought Gillies was our future G.  Monahan and Bennett would be #1/2 Centers.  Reality was, we needed to spend more time in the basement to accumulate more high end talent before making the move to break out.  But he rushed it.

I'm not sure it was rushed because that implies they were ready to be patient and take their time. I'm not sure that was ever the case. 

 

Bit of semantics there of course. 

[jjgallow]

 

I have never seen so many excuses in one thread.

[sak22]

17 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

If we could do it all over again, I would 100% have traded Giordano too when our rebuild began.  I had a feeling that based on his age, he would be too old when our new core would be in their primes to compete.  And now, here we are.  Just short sightedness on BT's part.  It's not even a hindsight thing I'm doing because I think we all knew this day would come for Giordano 6/7 years ago.

 

And Giordano also was so good that he prevented us from tanking for franchise altering talent.

Wouldn't that be Feaster, and or Burke?  I can get behind the notion of trading him prior to bringing up younger guys, but on one hand he was a Norris candidate in both the '14 and '15 seasons.  I don't mind hanging on to a player who for starters wants to be here, theres the alternative of being a Buffalo where you do get a few nice pieces, but they don't want to be there.  I also don't know if I would've wanted Feaster making that move either based on the Bouwmeester trade.

[jjgallow]

17 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed.  BT fooled himself into believing this team was ready.

 

Admittedly, it was close.

 

If you consider Fox, and Hamilton.   If you consider what Bennett was capable of.      And that he inherited a healthier Monahan.

 

But even then, not close enough.   We needed another 1-2 years of building.   And we simply needed better management and better asset management.

 

So much was given away.   So much was left to age without realizing any value.   Picks were given away.   Players given away.

 

To the extent that he can at least be credited with speeding up our next rebuild ahead of Connor Bedard.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Admittedly, it was close.

 

If you consider Fox, and Hamilton.   If you consider what Bennett was capable of.      And that he inherited a healthier Monahan.

 

But even then, not close enough.   We needed another 1-2 years of building.   And we simply needed better management and better asset management.

 

So much was given away.   So much was left to age without realizing any value.   Picks were given away.   Players given away.

 

To the extent that he can at least be credited with speeding up our next rebuild ahead of Connor Bedard.

 

Pretty hard to collect decent 1st rounders when you make the playoffs in 2014/15.

You don't always have the luxury of doing a teardown after a player has an iconic playoff as a start to his career.

Made a smart trade to get Hammy to help the team grow and add to the young core.

Success didn't follow with BH and fairly major retool done mid season.

 

I don't even consider Fox a factor.

Somehow I think he signs in NY regardless of what we had for a role.

I would almost guarantee that.

 

The issues for me are around trading picks for Stone, Hamonic, Elliott (he wasn't a bad goalie, just mismanaged), Smith, Forbort, Gus....

Those are the ones that robbed us of top prospects.

Trading Hammy for Hanifin and Lindholm was sideways at worst.

 

The other issue is failure to do a decent coaching search.  Gully should never have been a target.  BP was the polar opposite but also had no history of being a head coach on a winner.  The it was Wardo, who was okay as an assistant coach, but that's about it.

 

While you can argue we stopped rebuilding way too early, I think it was that we went from building the team to looking for pieces.  Trading for goalies, trading picks for useless players, signings of Brouwer and Neal were signals that BT was not evaluating talent properly.  They could have been better trades, like trading for Allen, Grubauer or Raanta, or maybe Trochek.  Or building cap space for sucker deals.    We didn't go after Toffoli, either at TDL or in FA.  Some of it predetermined by other lousy work.

 

To sum it up, BT had options that could have resulted in a team much closer to being a contender.  Past cap mistakes prevented some of it from happening.  Wideman, Smid, Stajan, Bollig come to mind.  Wasting growth years on Hiller, Ramo, Elliott and Smith didn't help.    

[MP5029]

On 5/18/2021 at 3:14 PM, travel_dude said:

 

Pretty hard to collect decent 1st rounders when you make the playoffs in 2014/15.

You don't always have the luxury of doing a teardown after a player has an iconic playoff as a start to his career.

Made a smart trade to get Hammy to help the team grow and add to the young core.

Success didn't follow with BH and fairly major retool done mid season.

 

I don't even consider Fox a factor.

Somehow I think he signs in NY regardless of what we had for a role.

I would almost guarantee that.

 

The issues for me are around trading picks for Stone, Hamonic, Elliott (he wasn't a bad goalie, just mismanaged), Smith, Forbort, Gus....

Those are the ones that robbed us of top prospects.

Trading Hammy for Hanifin and Lindholm was sideways at worst.

 

The other issue is failure to do a decent coaching search.  Gully should never have been a target.  BP was the polar opposite but also had no history of being a head coach on a winner.  The it was Wardo, who was okay as an assistant coach, but that's about it.

 

While you can argue we stopped rebuilding way too early, I think it was that we went from building the team to looking for pieces.  Trading for goalies, trading picks for useless players, signings of Brouwer and Neal were signals that BT was not evaluating talent properly.  They could have been better trades, like trading for Allen, Grubauer or Raanta, or maybe Trochek.  Or building cap space for sucker deals.    We didn't go after Toffoli, either at TDL or in FA.  Some of it predetermined by other lousy work.

 

To sum it up, BT had options that could have resulted in a team much closer to being a contender.  Past cap mistakes prevented some of it from happening.  Wideman, Smid, Stajan, Bollig come to mind.  Wasting growth years on Hiller, Ramo, Elliott and Smith didn't help.    

Trading Hammy for Lindy and Hanifin was and has been the only real success BT has had during his time here...though if I’m being fair I should also add Tanev is a success so far too...as for Markstrom is was wary about signing a 30 year old to a long term, jury is still out on him, he wasn’t horrible but not a 6 mil goalie either but he did work his butt off and was injured so he’s a pass for now...wait and see how he dose next season before passing any judgment on this move.

 

otherwise everything other move or missed moved by BT has handcuffed this team to where it is now...if owners are wanting to win the bottom line for BT’s job would be this...show me a solid plan and execute it, not like last years word of mouth tough talk...back that up and do it now if the puck drops and there is no real change in this team your gone....or in other words BT needs 2-4 trades like the Hammy for Hanifin and Lindholm trade to save his job.

[travel_dude]

Posted to listen at your leisure....

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/big-show/brad-treliving-flames-season-offseason-decisions/

[robrob74]

Listening right now on a replayed interview with BT, he says it’s a good team that underperformed. Really? So they underperformed for two years plus? This isn’t a good team, or they’re a team that only likes to play when things are easy. So are they a good team when things don’t matter as much or are they a good team that under achieved all the time?

 

steinberg just gave him an out, saying that they competed for the final playoff spot, when clearly, the games they made up ground only makes it look like they’re that team... disappointing!

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Listening right now on a replayed interview with BT, he says it’s a good team that underperformed. Really? So they underperformed for two years plus? This isn’t a good team, or they’re a team that only likes to play when things are easy. So are they a good team when things don’t matter as much or are they a good team that under achieved all the time?

 

steinberg just gave him an out, saying that they competed for the final playoff spot, when clearly, the games they made up ground only makes it look like they’re that team... disappointing!

 

If you listen to the full thing, he says a lot of things.

He says there will be changes for sure.

He says that they don't know to what extent.

 

You keep talking about the team as if it's exactly the same every year and they sucked last two years.

I get that, same core players, except for the goalie and a top 4 D-man.  

Every year the team is different.

Did we underperform?  Of course we did.  You can look at every player except maybe 2 and find they dropped a bunch.

We stopped being able to score for a long stretch.  Killed the season.

 

The bottom line is we were 5 points out of the playoffs in a 7 team division.  If we had normal years from Monahan or Gaudreau, we are in the playoffs.

We don't lose Markstrom to injury, we are in the playoffs.

 

I want to see changes next season, but that's because they are not built to go far in the playoffs.  BT said exactly that too.

 

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Posted to listen at your leisure....

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/big-show/brad-treliving-flames-season-offseason-decisions/

 

Thanks for posting.  

 

I thought he was generally fair.  Will evaluate how deep of a cut the team needs to make... He basically dismissed the idea of a total rebuild but was then certain the team has to make changes because the team is not good enough.  So I expect to see changes.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Listening right now on a replayed interview with BT, he says it’s a good team that underperformed. Really? So they underperformed for two years plus? This isn’t a good team, or they’re a team that only likes to play when things are easy. So are they a good team when things don’t matter as much or are they a good team that under achieved all the time?

 

steinberg just gave him an out, saying that they competed for the final playoff spot, when clearly, the games they made up ground only makes it look like they’re that team... disappointing!

 

Ya it was a softball question.  Wills later asked if BT would consider a total rebuild and it was shot down in general terms but at the same breathe, BT expressed the idea that there will be changes...like he didn't want to use the term "rebuild" but sorta defined "retool" in a more political manner.

 

So while he didn't want to admit he put together a bad team, it sounds like he woke up to that truth and that we can expect some big moves.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you listen to the full thing, he says a lot of things.

He says there will be changes for sure.

He says that they don't know to what extent.

 

You keep talking about the team as if it's exactly the same every year and they sucked last two years.

I get that, same core players, except for the goalie and a top 4 D-man.  

Every year the team is different.

Did we underperform?  Of course we did.  You can look at every player except maybe 2 and find they dropped a bunch.

We stopped being able to score for a long stretch.  Killed the season.

 

The bottom line is we were 5 points out of the playoffs in a 7 team division.  If we had normal years from Monahan or Gaudreau, we are in the playoffs.

We don't lose Markstrom to injury, we are in the playoffs.

 

I want to see changes next season, but that's because they are not built to go far in the playoffs.  BT said exactly that too.

 

 

If we had "normal" years from Monahan and Gaudreau, we would make the playoffs, and get crushed in the first round.  Like we do Every.  Single. Time.

 

It is a Blessing that we actually get Something...anything...out of this year (a decent first rounder).

 

 

I just don't understand why we're talking like our potential  ability to get man-handled in the first round of the playoffs is some kind of accomplishment.  it is incredibly embarrassing and making it more and more difficult for me to bash the Oilers (Oilers do suck though).   Furthermore with Gaudreau's size and Monahan's physical wear and tear (largely due to poor management), both of them are Most likely not having "off"-years.   They are most likely exiting their primes.  Permanently.  Period.

 

BT is correct that we are not built to go far in the playoffs but it doesn't really matter what he says at this point, we have no players or pipeline to fix it.   We're either going into a rebuild, or make a really stupid draft pick trade and then go into a rebuild anyway.   There aren't any other options and even if there were, BT has proven he's not the guy to find them.

 

The thought that you can just "tweak" an utterly useless post season team is honestly laughable.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

If we had "normal" years from Monahan and Gaudreau, we would make the playoffs, and get crushed in the first round.  Like we do Every.  Single. Time.

 

It is a Blessing that we actually get Something...anything...out of this year (a decent first rounder).

 

 

I just don't understand why we're talking like our potential  ability to get man-handled in the first round of the playoffs it is some kind of accomplishment.  it is incredibly embarrassing and making it more and more difficult for me to bash the Oilers (Oilers do suck though).   Furthermore with Gaudreau's size and Monahan's physical wear and tear (largely due to poor management), both of them are Most likely not having "off"-years.   They are most likely existing their primes.  Permanently.  Period.

 

BT is correct that we are not built to go far in the playoffs but it doesn't really matter what he says at this point, we have no players or pipeline to fix it.   We're either going into a rebuild, or make a really stupid draft pick trading and then going into a rebuild anyway.   There aren't any other options and even if there were, BT has proven he's not the guy to find them.

 

The thought that you can just "tweak" an utterly useless post season team is honestly laughable.

 

I like how you read my post and figured I was saying we had a team that could win in the playoffs.  Most teams that make the playoffs don't have a chance.

We didn't this year, other than had we gone on a 10 game winning streak, and that's only becuase a team that wins out is a dangerous team to play.

Regardless of what COL was two years ago, they came into the playoffs battling to get in until the last whistle.

STL went in two yars ago from being the last place team.

 

Did I even say we just needed tweaks?  I said we were close to making the playoffs.

That's not even close to the same thing.

 

I find it laughable that you think Gaudreau and Monahan are exiting their prime.

That's so incredibly dumb.

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I like how you read my post and figured I was saying we had a team that could win in the playoffs.  Most teams that make the playoffs don't have a chance.

We didn't this year, other than had we gone on a 10 game winning streak, and that's only becuase a team that wins out is a dangerous team to play.

Regardless of what COL was two years ago, they came into the playoffs battling to get in until the last whistle.

STL went in two yars ago from being the last place team.

 

Did I even say we just needed tweaks?  I said we were close to making the playoffs.

That's not even close to the same thing.

 

I find it laughable that you think Gaudreau and Monahan are exiting their prime.

That's so incredibly dumb.

 

That's what you said to me about Giordano and Brodie, like, recently.  Not years ago, but months ago (more than 12 months but all the same).  You were defending Treliving so this is how I took it, as I feel we're all kind of just...past that now.  Unless it's the arguement that it's actually a problem higher up.  Which might be true.

 

For forwards the candle burns faster.   So no, I disagree that basic math is dumb, or laughable.    Math is just math.

 

https://www.tsn.ca/yost-nhl-rosters-continue-to-trend-younger-1.1465718