Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[rickross]

It’s starting to look like we’re right back to square 1 with our drafting. BT has drafted some excellent value in players like Dube, Valimaki, Kylington, Mangiapane..his best draft/scout move has been David Rittich no question. Ironically we still lack any RW depth, it will plague us forever! Obviously BT has had a rough year already if you look at our current staple of prospects we don’t have any standout or core players to really build around. It’s still early but we’d need to see some pretty significant steps forward in development for most of our ‘top rated’ players. 

 

We have a small window to win with our current core. If we don’t win the Cup in that window has Treliving done well managing this organizations future? Is there enough NHL quality being grown within the Flames organization or will we find ourselves buying a newer offense/defence in a couple years time?

[JTech780]

Treliving was on this week's 31 Thoughts Podcast, I really recommend listening to the interview it was really interesting.

 

I really liked the part where he talked about the work Chris Snow does and how they use analytics. It was interesting how he talked about that the analytics that are available to the public cover about 10% of what they track, maybe. The analytics that we have access too maybe tracks 300 to 400 events a game, the Flames are tracking over 4000 events a game. Things like winning board battles, where does the puck end up after you have it, and who gets it after you have it. They track every touch and every play and at the end of the game they assign a number value to that players performance. He said the highest game he has seen was a 101 and the lowest was an 8.

[Horsman1]

which is all good but does nothing for us.. Our play has not improved one IOta.. the players have so much crap in their heads from all this B.S. they have lost the natural flow.. Maybe Tre needs this info to validate his job but it doesn't win games

 

[JTech780]

6 minutes ago, Horsman1 said:

which is all good but does nothing for us.. Our play has not improved one IOta.. the players have so much crap in their heads from all this B.S. they have lost the natural flow.. Maybe Tre needs this info to validate his job but it doesn't win games

 

 

Every team in the league does the exact same thing, they all have analytics departments and they are all looking at data, gathered from games all the time.

[LouCifer]

On 1/30/2020 at 7:04 PM, Horsman1 said:

which is all good but does nothing for us.. Our play has not improved one IOta.. the players have so much crap in their heads from all this B.S. they have lost the natural flow.. Maybe Tre needs this info to validate his job but it doesn't win games

 

the data is what’s going to help BT make decisions/changes about personnel on the team. If that player that got an 8 rating continues to get low marks game after game, BT looks to switch out that player - the delay is that he has to find a dance partner to take that player off our hands and give us something better. The analytics assist in improving the team, but it’s a process.
 

In the realistic trade thread, we’ve started talking about horribly lopsided trades that killed the flames in the past. This analytic data will help prevent that ever happening again moving forward. Anything that gives us an edge, I’m all for. 

[jjgallow]

ok so...

 

Treliving's still here?

[LouCifer]

Did BT Satoshi Nakamoto the bed or the players?

 

if that’s the players’ A game, then yes BT is to blame. Unfortunately, we’ve got players that aren’t playing to the level they’re capable of. I say the players need to be held accountable here JJ. For example, did you want BT not to sign Gaudreau? Seemed like a no-brainer at the time, yet the guy has coasted most of this season. That ain’t a management issue. That’s a personnel issue that needs to be addressed by management. 

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

Did BT Satoshi Nakamoto the bed or the players?

 

if that’s the players’ A game, then yes BT is to blame. Unfortunately, we’ve got players that aren’t playing to the level they’re capable of. I say the players need to be held accountable here JJ. For example, did you want BT not to sign Gaudreau? Seemed like a no-brainer at the time, yet the guy has coasted most of this season. That ain’t a management issue. That’s a personnel issue that needs to be addressed by management. 

 

Honestly, I thought last year was closer to an aberration than anything. I don't think that they're as bad as they should be this year, but I think that Johnny and Monny had a career year. I think they're closer to 70 point players. There was going to be a fall. The rest of the lineup doesn't have enough to make up for that drop. They're a borderline playoff team. But you're right, if they give better efforts, they probably have a better outcome. Although, I think if they tried more this year, they could be still where they're at, or in first.

 

I just think that when other teams push it against the Flames, they turtle.

[LouCifer]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Honestly, I thought last year was closer to an aberration than anything. I don't think that they're as bad as they should be this year, but I think that Johnny and Monny had a career year. I think they're closer to 70 point players. There was going to be a fall. The rest of the lineup doesn't have enough to make up for that drop. They're a borderline playoff team. But you're right, if they give better efforts, they probably have a better outcome. Although, I think if they tried more this year, they could be still where they're at, or in first.

 

I just think that when other teams push it against the Flames, they turtle.

I see it similarly robrob. They’re not as good as they were last year, and they’re not as bad as they’ve played this year. They are something in between. The issue is they don’t seem to be able to find that middle ground consistently. The swings in effort and play are erratic. 
 

re: turtle.  ...

just kidding, you’re bang on. 

[rickross]

2 hours ago, lou44291 said:

I see it similarly robrob. They’re not as good as they were last year, and they’re not as bad as they’ve played this year. They are something in between. The issue is they don’t seem to be able to find that middle ground consistently. The swings in effort and play are erratic. 
 

re: turtle.  ...

just kidding, you’re bang on. 

That’s the problem...we’re a middling team. No more, no less. It’s not enough to accomplish anything in the playoffs. I don’t feel this team plays with the right mix belief and effort. They can’t seem to will themselves to a higher level of play because I don’t think they themselves believe they can achieve it. 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, lou44291 said:

I see it similarly robrob. They’re not as good as they were last year, and they’re not as bad as they’ve played this year. They are something in between. The issue is they don’t seem to be able to find that middle ground consistently. The swings in effort and play are erratic. 
 

re: turtle.  ...

just kidding, you’re bang on. 

 

1 hour ago, rickross said:

That’s the problem...we’re a middling team. No more, no less. It’s not enough to accomplish anything in the playoffs. I don’t feel this team plays with the right mix belief and effort. They can’t seem to will themselves to a higher level of play because I don’t think they themselves believe they can achieve it. 

 

The goal scoring has dried up from last year.

But the defense pairs are nowhere near as good this year.

Gio has lost two steps; he's reading the offense all wrong and looks like he's second guessing every play.

Hani-Hammer is a study in bad; they look like trash most nights.

The 3rd pair is a struggle with consistency; Ras is not able to balance out the pairing unless Kyl is playing a good game.

 

Last year, the goalie was the issue and the team responded by scoring more than he let in.

This year we have good goaltending, but aren't able to put together 3 good lines.

Lucic has looked good in about 25% of his games and that might be a stretch.

Backlund has turned into a blip.

So much for the Backlund bump, it's more like Frolik was propping him up all this time.

Bennett's best games are when he plays with Mangiapane.

Dube is a shell of what he was earlier.

Rieder has speed and plays with people that can't finish or can;t get the puck to him to finish.

Janko has a couple of good games and sits.

 

The GM believes in analytics, but is not addressing the problems they highlight.

Top line needs a straight line finisher; go to the net with the puck and score.

2nd line needs another big player that can finish,

3rd line needs 2 way players; Mangiapane-Backlund-Ryan is about the best I can come up with, assuming that Backlund can get his game back.

4th line is Lucic and two players that can do something with the puck.

 

Maybe Buddy is the best scorer from the Heat, but I am inclined to think we have people there that are NHL capable.

Return Dube and Buddy.

Send up Gawdin and maybe Czarnik.

Czarnik is small but he's got his scoring touch back.

Gawdin is a good two way player.

This is until we can find some players in trade.

[jjgallow]

15 hours ago, lou44291 said:

Did BT Satoshi Nakamoto the bed or the players?

 

if that’s the players’ A game, then yes BT is to blame. Unfortunately, we’ve got players that aren’t playing to the level they’re capable of. I say the players need to be held accountable here JJ. For example, did you want BT not to sign Gaudreau? Seemed like a no-brainer at the time, yet the guy has coasted most of this season. That ain’t a management issue. That’s a personnel issue that needs to be addressed by management. 

 

Lobbied pretty hard to trade Gaudreau after he coasted through last year's playoffs. 

 

Management sent a clear message that they were really happy with how the playoffs went last year.

 

No two ways about it, the message was clear.

[LouCifer]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Lobbied pretty hard to trade Gaudreau after he coasted through last year's playoffs. 

 

Management sent a clear message that they were really happy with how the playoffs went last year.

 

No two ways about it, the message was clear.

I shared that same idea about Gaudreau in my posts after the playoff exit JJ. All I was saying was that no one was arguing against signing Gaudreau after his entry level deal expired, and nobody was unhappy with the new contract salary - though some hoped for longer term. After the playoff exit, I recall BT saying they’re going to rewatch and do a full diagnostic after the elimination. I recall him saying and being the opposite of happy. I just think the players have a lack of being unhappy with it. That’s my take.  
 

I think management is doing a better job than most out there, you see it differently and that’s ok. Cheers bud. 

[robrob74]

12 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

I shared that same idea about Gaudreau in my posts after the playoff exit JJ. All I was saying was that no one was arguing against signing Gaudreau after his entry level deal expired, and nobody was unhappy with the new contract salary - though some hoped for longer term. After the playoff exit, I recall BT saying they’re going to rewatch and do a full diagnostic after the elimination. I recall him saying and being the opposite of happy. I just think the players have a lack of being unhappy with it. That’s my take.  
 

I think management is doing a better job than most out there, you see it differently and that’s ok. Cheers bud. 

 

 

I think the problem could be that we are seeing where we are at because we rushed the rebuild a few seasons and those high picks we didn't get are possibly lacking now. We don't have a complete top6 and by spending those picks on D we barely even have a top4. 

 

I am unhappy with rushing the build in trades. I've been unhappy with it for years.

Now there isn't anyone to support for the top 6 forwards. Our top two lines are incomplete and it is showing. Last year we had 1 top line and PP. They stop that line and it's over, so they tried to spread it, and it is spread too thin. 

 

I don't see anyone gifting us a top 6 forward or two to complete us. The mix is just wrong so far. 

Maybe trading Gaudreau helps?

 

I dunno. I think he could still have a lot of value and some teams could give up enough for him. He would be a driver on the right team. Right now, really being the ONLY driver on the team, other teams know, stop him and you stop the Flames. 

 

I think it's him and the coaching. They're not changing things up enough. Gaudreau is doing the same things, while I don't see the playbook changing either. 

[travel_dude]

The problem with the trades is that they essentially provided us with one capable D and one deteriorating one.

That for all the picks we gave up.

I'm more annoyed that Hamonic is as bad as he has been.

Perhaps we would be a better team without building the D that way, but we might be more like the Oilers.

Total crap on D.

 

My issue is more around the scouting of players signed as UFA.

Brouwer, Neal, Potter just to name a few.

Thinking that Lucic is what we needed.

Neal bought out would have been better for the team.

Trade at draft for a few measley picks.

 

We have good players, but are missing players in the 26+ age to build the team.

We have two decent partial lines.

We have the makings of a 3rd line.

We are missing players that complete the team.

Trade the 1st if it makes the team better for more than one season.

Trade one of the D if it makes the team better.

 

[robrob74]

36 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

The problem with the trades is that they essentially provided us with one capable D and one deteriorating one.

That for all the picks we gave up.

I'm more annoyed that Hamonic is as bad as he has been.

Perhaps we would be a better team without building the D that way, but we might be more like the Oilers.

Total crap on D.

 

My issue is more around the scouting of players signed as UFA.

Brouwer, Neal, Potter just to name a few.

Thinking that Lucic is what we needed.

Neal bought out would have been better for the team.

Trade at draft for a few measley picks.

 

We have good players, but are missing players in the 26+ age to build the team.

We have two decent partial lines.

We have the makings of a 3rd line.

We are missing players that complete the team.

Trade the 1st if it makes the team better for more than one season.

Trade one of the D if it makes the team better.

 

 

 

I think that makes a lot of sense. I just think you can end up signing Fantenberg in that process to make the D work. 

Every team deals with injuries, and the Valamaki one hurt. But they did trade for Fantenberg last year, someone we could have kept. Not that he's a saviour, but there are other ways to build the D. It is a tough call. On the first talk of trades for Hamonic, I was all for him. Then the 2nd time the rumours came up, I was not into it. I didn't even like Hamilton. 
 

But you're right. 

I mean, scouting did find Andersson. If we keep our picks, maybe there are other guys that are up there. 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think that makes a lot of sense. I just think you can end up signing Fantenberg in that process to make the D work. 

Every team deals with injuries, and the Valamaki one hurt. But they did trade for Fantenberg last year, someone we could have kept. Not that he's a saviour, but there are other ways to build the D. It is a tough call. On the first talk of trades for Hamonic, I was all for him. Then the 2nd time the rumours came up, I was not into it. I didn't even like Hamilton. 
 

But you're right. 

I mean, scouting did find Andersson. If we keep our picks, maybe there are other guys that are up there. 

 

Fantenberg was not as good as I thought he would be.

Very meh numbers when playing with the Flames.

Not a good playoff.

Is he even a regular now?

 

No more rentals.

Give me a solid guy we can work with.

Vatanen might be someone to consider.

UFA in the summer, but w need to replace Brodie or Hammer or both.

Just an example.

[jjgallow]

17 hours ago, lou44291 said:

 After the playoff exit, I recall BT saying they’re going to rewatch and do a full diagnostic after the elimination.

 

I wonder if when BT was interviewed for the position if he said he would deal with failure by rewatching.

 

So is 2020 the rewatching year, and 2021 the full diagnostic?

 

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I wonder if when BT was interviewed for the position if he said he would deal with failure by rewatching.

 

So is 2020 the rewatching year, and 2021 the full diagnostic?

 

 

What a wasted season.  

 

That said, BT tried.  He tried to get Kadri but the player rejected the deal.  Nothing BT can do there.  No other team had to trim cap and Centers like the Leafs.  Rumour was he tried to get Zucker and Stone at the TDL last season so there's more "trying".  At least he's trying right?

[Horsman1]

On 2/1/2020 at 6:10 AM, lou44291 said:

the data is what’s going to help BT make decisions/changes about personnel on the team. If that player that got an 8 rating continues to get low marks game after game, BT looks to switch out that player - the delay is that he has to find a dance partner to take that player off our hands and give us something better. The analytics assist in improving the team, but it’s a process.
 

In the realistic trade thread, we’ve started talking about horribly lopsided trades that killed the flames in the past. This analytic data will help prevent that ever happening again moving forward. Anything that gives us an edge, I’m all for. 

every team has the same anylitic data.. We don't use any of it to improve our team or there would have been moves made since the epiccollapse last year.. Tre .. in my opinion.. needs better support staff as the people we haveobserving our league and the european leagues have done minimal to improve our team short or long term.. Tre has in his mind.. an approach the team should pa\lay but has neither the correct players or coaches to play that system.. We have a bunchof players.. not a team

 

[LouCifer]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I wonder if when BT was interviewed for the position if he said he would deal with failure by rewatching.

 

So is 2020 the rewatching year, and 2021 the full diagnostic?

 

Bazinga! 😂 good one JJ! 

[jjgallow]

16 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

What a wasted season.  

 

That said, BT tried.  He tried to get Kadri but the player rejected the deal.  Nothing BT can do there.  No other team had to trim cap and Centers like the Leafs.  Rumour was he tried to get Zucker and Stone at the TDL last season so there's more "trying".  At least he's trying right?

 

So I'm probably mostly alone on this, but imho these players are verging on rentals. Borderline rentals.   Less controversial:   They are relatively short term moves.

 

It's like he is trying to make the mistakes that Sutter made, and failing at making those mistakes.  Thankfully.

[rickross]

BT’s biggest misses:

Signing and buying out Mason Raymond and Troy Brouwer.

 

Hiring Glen Gulutzan and not entirely on BT but the Bill Peters effect has essentially derailed this season.

Signing James Neal long term, there’s a reason the guy can’t stick to 1 team. 

 

Trading for Lucic, he’s been a dud and another waste of $5M

 

Resigning Backlund, this one is more my personal opinion. Backs is too soft and unproductive to be our 2nd line C. Should have traded him at his peak. 
 

Also not sure if it was proven true or not but didn’t we flub the Zucker trade by not filing the paper work in time?

 

Failing to secure the RW position has been another misstep by BT. 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

So I'm probably mostly alone on this, but imho these players are verging on rentals. Borderline rentals.   Less controversial:   They are relatively short term moves.

 

It's like he is trying to make the mistakes that Sutter made, and failing at making those mistakes.  Thankfully.

 

I wouldn't call them rentals because they all had term on their contracts.  Plus, we were giving up Frolik, Brodie, Jankowski, etc.  Not giving up the farm.

 

But alas, those moves didn't happen so we can only talk about the near misses.

 

What can BT do to redeem himself in your eyes?  This TDL, what do you want to see?  In my opinion, he should trade Brodie and Hamonic even if we in a playoff spot because they aren't coming back as UFAs.  It's all about asset management for me.

[rocketdoctor]

Think a lot of you are looking too short term.

 

Expansion draft coming.  Hardly want to trade for some players to lose them later especially if we are not contenders.

 

Mind you on current play have we got enough forwards we want to protect!