Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

With virtually 0 trade bait and No draft picks who do you feel (in our pipeline) could provide the speed we are lacking?.

 

Jankowski: I have never heard anyone praising his speed

Poirier: This was to be his greatest asset but I havn't seen it.

Foo: Speed never came to mind watching him play

 

I guess my first thought then is what is your benchmark for speed? Because IMO Poirier can fly and I think Jankowski and Foo both have above avg speed. So i'm not sure if we just disagree on the individual players or if we are dealing with a different benchmark. Flames will never have someone who can skate like McDavid but that's a special and rare talent.

To clarify I don't think I would say the Flames are slow, they just lack the speed the upper echelon teams in the league seem to have. I would say the Flames have average team speed and 1 of the primary reasons I say that is because of their dead weight. Dump those guys and I think you'd be much better off and it would be less of a complaint. Brouwer and the 4th line in general really drag it down IMO. Being able to replace Ferland as first line RW and then move him down the lineup where he should be would help too, as would trying to get Bennett into the first line center his talent level suggests he could be. 

Doesn't require an immediate overhaul, just some tweaks. 

[MAC331]

58 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

And you may be right and I won't disagree. All I will say is that this is problematic when you consider the assets the Flames spent in the off season. 

What part is problematic ?

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

What part is problematic ?

 

That this would be a mentorship season and not a contending season given how many assets they spent in the offseason. 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

That this would be a mentorship season and not a contending season given how many assets they spent in the offseason. 

I said somewhere else that they could surprise if all went well and they had a Cinderella type season. I know you don't think we have much quality in the pipe and maybe this is where BT's thinking differs. Some of those trades IMO were to continue building in support for a growing winning environment for this group. Some of his thinking or planning remains to be scene such as what is in store for Backlund. How many openings will there actually be in the coming seasons ?

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

o clarify I don't think I would say the Flames are slow, they just lack the speed the upper echelon teams in the league seem to have. I would say the Flames have average team speed and 1 of the primary reasons I say that is because of their dead weight. Dump those guys and I think you'd be much better off and it would be less of a complaint. Brouwer and the 4th line in general really drag it down IMO. Being able to replace Ferland as first line RW and then move him down the lineup where he should be would help too, as would trying to get Bennett into the first line center his talent level suggests he could be. 

Doesn't require an immediate overhaul, just some tweaks.

 

We don't have the speed of some teams.  Stajan, Brouwer, Glass, Stone, Gio, and Monahan are probably the slowest.  Only a few of them have enough skill to make up for their lack of speed.  Janko is faster than Stajan.  Foo is faster than Brouwer.  Kylington is faster than Gio.  Poitier is faster than Glass.  

 

I would rather watch a 4th line of Janko, Poirier and Lazar than what we currently have.  I wonder how many games of meh effort from the vets before  they will get sat out.  10?  15?  20? 

[Fins&FIre15]

9 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Good Lord man, talk about impatient. This team has only just begun and you want to start selling off the parts ? What is wrong with keeping a Backlund at his ceiling when it is an ingredient you need in order to have a winning team ? Good or great players need experience before they ever take off with reaching their true potential. Do you want to be constantly in rebuilding mode ?

 

In 5 years, if this team as it is (for the most part) turns us in to a real contender I will have no issue with you throwing it in my face and telling me how wrong I am.

 

Under BH how often did he say "we got out worked tonight"? It wasn't much. Present day, and its almost becoming a nightly occurrence that our coach questions this teams work ethic.

 

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, in fact I hope I am because I want whats best for this team, even through my impatient attitude. I just believe there are more suitable pieces for our division out there.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, Fins&FIre15 said:

 

In 5 years, if this team as it is (for the most part) turns us in to a real contender I will have no issue with you throwing it in my face and telling me how wrong I am.

 

Under BH how often did he say "we got out worked tonight"? It wasn't much. Present day, and its almost becoming a nightly occurrence that our coach questions this teams work ethic.

 

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, in fact I hope I am because I want whats best for this team, even through my impatient attitude. I just believe there are more suitable pieces for our division out there.

What are you referring to "more suitable parts" ? If you mean better players or potentially better players that will always be the case.

GG and his systems have been here 1 year and ended up serving us well last season. System in place we still have a young core learning on the job supported by some good (not great) experienced veterans. I believe these veterans are serving a purpose now and will be replaced by younger eventually better players starting some this season and more in 2018/19. As our core becomes the "experienced players" then we will be consistent contenders.

[redfire11]

12 hours ago, Fins&FIre15 said:

 

Under BH how often did he say "we got out worked tonight"? It wasn't much. Present day, and its almost becoming a nightly occurrence that our coach questions this teams work ethic.

 

It is unfortunate but this^^^^^ is MY huge concern going forward. Lets hope GG turns this trend around. Jagr know the effort it takes every game lets hope his message gets across in the locker room.

[tmac70]

48 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

What are you referring to "more suitable parts" ? If you mean better players or potentially better players that will always be the case.

GG and his systems have been here 1 year and ended up serving us well last season. System in place we still have a young core learning on the job supported by some good (not great) experienced veterans. I believe these veterans are serving a purpose now and will be replaced by younger eventually better players starting some this season and more in 2018/19. As our core becomes the "experienced players" then we will be consistent contenders.

The not suitable veterans i can agree with the rest I disagree on. If the systems are in place why have we yet to see any form of  it? Young core by age sure but with the exception of MT most have been on the job for more than 2 season's, that is plenty time to get accumulated to the NHL. The only vet that will provide any mentor ship is Jagr. What we are missing is that youthful excitement that younger players bring in the locker room.

 

[MAC331]

23 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

The not suitable veterans i can agree with the rest I disagree on. If the systems are in place why have we yet to see any form of  it? Young core by age sure but with the exception of MT most have been on the job for more than 2 season's, that is plenty time to get accumulated to the NHL. The only vet that will provide any mentor ship is Jagr. What we are missing is that youthful excitement that younger players bring in the locker room.

 

First let me say neither of us knows what goes on in the locker room. You assume way to many thing and it reflects in your comments. I would say you bring in some experience to help these younger players advance, something will always be learned. All GM's make mistakes and I would say he made one with Brouwer but even then there is likely some good being done we don't see. Versteeg is a good add and our players can learn lots from him and now the same goes for Jagr. Our regulars like Giordano, Backlund and Frolik have always been good leaders by example. So you think it should only take these young players 2 seasons to produce at high production ?

[travel_dude]

I'm not sure how this fits the current discussion other than it's about a few vets.

The annoying passes from the blueline to the opposite blue line continues, notably by Gio and Bart.  GG talks about a possession game *as does BT), but we see this very often.  I don't mind the odd stretch pass for a streaking player or a lob over the D for a player at full speed, but these passes into traffic have to stop.  Brodie skates the puck a lot.  Hammy joins the rush.  Hamonic makes passes to exit.  

 

The system still resembles what BH had going here.  I don't know if some vets use it as a fall back, but it should be coached out of the players.  I can give Gio a pass for being old, but he is supposed to set the example.  Bart just shouldn't be on the ice.

[DirtyDeeds]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I'm not sure how this fits the current discussion other than it's about a few vets.

The annoying passes from the blueline to the opposite blue line continues, notably by Gio and Bart.  GG talks about a possession game *as does BT), but we see this very often.  I don't mind the odd stretch pass for a streaking player or a lob over the D for a player at full speed, but these passes into traffic have to stop.  Brodie skates the puck a lot.  Hammy joins the rush.  Hamonic makes passes to exit.  

 

The system still resembles what BH had going here.  I don't know if some vets use it as a fall back, but it should be coached out of the players.  I can give Gio a pass for being old, but he is supposed to set the example.  Bart just shouldn't be on the ice.

Sometimes you have to use the breakout that the opponent gives you. If they are forechecking heavily then carrying the puck is not the best plan. If they are all back defending then a stretch pass is silly.

If you neex to spread them out then a stretch pass helps. If they are all back defending then carry it out as a 5 man unit.

 

The cross ice passes are the ones I hate.

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Sometimes you have to use the breakout that the opponent gives you. If they are forechecking heavily then carrying the puck is not the best plan. If they are all back defending then a stretch pass is silly.

If you neex to spread them out then a stretch pass helps. If they are all back defending then carry it out as a 5 man unit.

 

The cross ice passes are the ones I hate.

 

I agree.  Sometimes.  When it's used no matter what the circumstances, then it's not good.

[JTech780]

Add another comparable to the list for Backlund's next contract. Nashville just re-signed Turris to a 6x6 extension.

[MAC331]

12 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Add another comparable to the list for Backlund's next contract. Nashville just re-signed Turris to a 6x6 extension.

I would almost bet this is Backlund's last season as a Flame.

[robrob74]

50 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I would almost bet this is Backlund's last season as a Flame.

 

They can sign him and trade him in a year or two after. There is absolutely no succession plan as Bennett, Jankowski and Lazar are not going to replace Backlund (hopefully yet). 

 

If the Flames think they can compete for cups, that’s not happening without Backs at the moment... BT has the Flames “all-in” with this group so-to-speak. Unless Bennett has a breakthrough, he has to re-sign Backlund.

[MAC331]

30 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

They can sign him and trade him in a year or two after. There is absolutely no succession plan as Bennett, Jankowski and Lazar are not going to replace Backlund (hopefully yet). 

 

If the Flames think they can compete for cups, that’s not happening without Backs at the moment... BT has the Flames “all-in” with this group so-to-speak. Unless Bennett has a breakthrough, he has to re-sign Backlund.

I don't disagree this should be the thinking but I don't necessarily think this will prevail, especially if Backlund is wanting 6M per season. Also I think we will see Bennett break out this season soon however the one I have my eye on is Jankowski. 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

They can sign him and trade him in a year or two after. There is absolutely no succession plan as Bennett, Jankowski and Lazar are not going to replace Backlund (hopefully yet). 

 

If the Flames think they can compete for cups, that’s not happening without Backs at the moment... BT has the Flames “all-in” with this group so-to-speak. Unless Bennett has a breakthrough, he has to re-sign Backlund.

 

I would say that it's either keeping Backs and paying whatever or trading him for an equivalent center.  The problem with the team's salary structure is the D making too much and having 4th line players making more than minimum. 

[LouCifer]

While you're absolutely right to make the correlation, I just have a gut feeling that Backlund will sign again with a home team discount. 

 

- he's only played for Calgary (has roots here)

- we have (on paper) a playoff team that has potential to make noise in the playoffs 

- the flames organization showed faith in him when he was struggling with injury woes for a few seasons

- our top players are signed long term, so there is some certainty that our team will remain competitive 

 

If I'm not mistaken, points wise Turris has an edge. Likely another factor. 

 

[redfire11]

I like Backlund as a complete player better than Duchene and wow what a haul Duchene got.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

While you're absolutely right to make the correlation, I just have a gut feeling that Backlund will sign again with a home team discount. 

 

- he's only played for Calgary (has roots here)

- we have (on paper) a playoff team that has potential to make noise in the playoffs 

- the flames organization showed faith in him when he was struggling with injury woes for a few seasons

- our top players are signed long term, so there is some certainty that our team will remain competitive 

 

If I'm not mistaken, points wise Turris has an edge. Likely another factor. 

 

 

I think it's reasonable that he signs in the neighborhood of $6m  (that's a nice neighbrhood).  Fitting that salary into the current structure will be challenging, considering the potential in 2019/20 of Tkachuk (likely) and Bennett (not so likely) of commanding a big raise.  

[MAC331]

31 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I like Backlund as a complete player better than Duchene and wow what a haul Duchene got.

If Backlund would get us a 1st, 2nd and 3rd forget all the other players BT would trade him tomorrow. LOL

[JTech780]

I think that before GG hits the road, that Burke needs to take a long hard look at the job Treliving has done. I liked the hiring and he has made some nice moves, but even the good trades (ie. Hamilton), haven't really worked out that well. Treliving has put together a soft roster, with no real identity. There is just something wrong with the way this team is put together, I think that is the bigger issue than the coach. 

 

I would fire Treliving before I fired GG. Let the new GM pick his coach, and go from there.

[MAC331]

13 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I think that before GG hits the road, that Burke needs to take a long hard look at the job Treliving has done. I liked the hiring and he has made some nice moves, but even the good trades (ie. Hamilton), haven't really worked out that well. Treliving has put together a soft roster, with no real identity. There is just something wrong with the way this team is put together, I think that is the bigger issue than the coach. 

 

I would fire Treliving before I fired GG. Let the new GM pick his coach, and go from there.

Why is everyone so quick to want to fire everybody ? Everyone makes mistakes by gambling on players talents. A good GM will fix his own mistakes and to some degree we have seen BT do this. The two big ones for me are obviously Brouwer and Jagr this year. I think both Hamilton and Hamonic will pan out for us. Tring to fix our RW situation and add some size in the process has not been handle well IMO. We overpaid for Frolik and followed that up with overpaying for Brouwer. I think Frolik has made up for the extra million but Brouwer likely overpaid by 2M at least.

Just to add a point regarding the lack of identity and energy. You take away Versteeg, Brouwer, Stajan, Jagr and replace them with some enthusiastic youth the team would be better off.

Have a 4th line of Lomberg, Lazar and Hathaway then you have some energy to pump into a game.

[redfire11]

38 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I think that before GG hits the road, that Burke needs to take a long hard look at the job Treliving has done. I liked the hiring and he has made some nice moves, but even the good trades (ie. Hamilton), haven't really worked out that well. Treliving has put together a soft roster, with no real identity. There is just something wrong with the way this team is put together, I think that is the bigger issue than the coach. 

 

I would fire Treliving before I fired GG. Let the new GM pick his coach, and go from there.

Before the start of the season we could have got the whole defensive roster and + of the VGK's for either Hamilton or Harmonic. If you have watched one of VGK games they are twice the defensive team that we are; heck they were competitive with a ECHL goalie. So is that REALLY BT's fault we are getting 40+ shots on our goal a game?