Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm not a huge fan of bringing back Stone, but I do agree that if if was between Stone and Alzner i'd bring back Stone. Similar overal impacts, IMO, but you get the RH shot and you already know he works with Brodie. 

 

I don't know that paying Stone top 4 money makes sense.  I think he would be a perfect fit for 3rd pairing.  Play him with a puck mover, and use him for shutdown and occasional offensive bursts.  So that would be a salary around $2m.

 

I hope it doesn't come down to Stone vs Alzner for top 4.  I would be looking for a trade or cheaper UFA signing to fill the top 4 slot.  Franson would be cheaper than Stone.  If we signed Franson, we could alternate him with one of our D prospects like Andersson with Brodie.  

[420since1974]

Though Stone's style of play is quite different from Kris Russell, I would describe them similarly as:

An above average #5 D, who can play decently at the #4 spot with the right partner.

 

Over a full 82 game season, Stone's stat averages are 7 goals, 18 assists, 25 points, & 50 PIM.

His career +/- is minus 35, though to be fair, he played most of it for Arizona.

 

He has just finished a one year, $4M contract awarded for scoring 36 points in 2015/2016.

IMO though, Stone is due for a salary decrease.

That said, I believe that he is worth more than the $1.45M he received at the end of his previous 3 year contract.

What attracts me is how well he pins opposing forwards to the boards and is a natural RHRD, both of which are in short supply in the Flame's organization.

I'd be comfortable in paying him up $2.25M per on a new 3 year contract , but no NMC or NTC clauses. 

[jjgallow]

On 02/06/2017 at 4:30 PM, 420since1974 said:

Though Stone's style of play is quite different from Kris Russell, I would describe them similarly as:

An above average #5 D, who can play decently at the #4 spot with the right partner.

 

Over a full 82 game season, Stone's stat averages are 7 goals, 18 assists, 25 points, & 50 PIM.

His career +/- is minus 35, though to be fair, he played most of it for Arizona.

 

He has just finished a one year, $4M contract awarded for scoring 36 points in 2015/2016.

IMO though, Stone is due for a salary decrease.

That said, I believe that he is worth more than the $1.45M he received at the end of his previous 3 year contract.

What attracts me is how well he pins opposing forwards to the boards and is a natural RHRD, both of which are in short supply in the Flame's organization.

I'd be comfortable in paying him up $2.25M per on a new 3 year contract , but no NMC or NTC clauses. 

 

This.  I would pin him as an average #5 D as well.  As such, yes...he can play top 4 in a pinch.  But playing top 4 out of necessity and actually being top 4 are two very different things.

 

He's also young enough to improve, but old enough not to pay him for it in advance as if it's a sure thing.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

This.  I would pin him as an average #5 D as well.  As such, yes...he can play top 4 in a pinch.  But playing top 4 out of necessity and actually being top 4 are two very different things.

 

He's also young enough to improve, but old enough not to pay him for it in advance as if it's a sure thing.

 

I think we can do better for a top 4.  I doubt he gets the big offers in the summer.  If you signed a combo of Stone and Franson for less than $4m, I think we would be improved over last season.  You could slot Andersson on the 3rd pair (RD) and use Stone (LD) to help him on the defensive side of things.  FRanson provides Brodie with a better possession partner.

 

Gio ($6.75) Hammy ($5.75)

Brodie ($4.65) Franson ($2m x 3 years)

Stone ($2m x 2 years) Andersson ($755k)*

 

* If Kylington make the team ahead of Andersson, then you move Stone to RD.

 

Stone sign a show me deal and can get a bigger payday in 2 years.  Franson signs a longer term for less than his recent deals to play on a playoff team.  

 

 

[DirtyDeeds]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

.........

* If Kylington make the team ahead of Andersson, then you move Stone to RD.

 

Stone sign a show me deal and can get a bigger payday in 2 years.  Franson signs a longer term for less than his recent deals to play on a playoff team.  

 

 

I am curious what you expect to see from Stone that you have not already seen?  he played well with Brodie for his 1st 2 weeks and then tailed off to the point you hardly noticed him. I won't be pencilling him in as our #4 D anytime soon now. When I try to think of the pros of his time here the only thing that comes to mind is his hits and taking the man out on the boards.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I am curious what you expect to see from Stone that you have not already seen?  he played well with Brodie for his 1st 2 weeks and then tailed off to the point you hardly noticed him. I won't be pencilling him in as our #4 D anytime soon now. When I try to think of the pros of his time here the only thing that comes to mind is his hits and taking the man out on the boards.

 

I expect some improvement from him, but I pencilled him in on the 3rd pair.  At two years it wouldn't be a huge risk.  If he doesn't rate a 2nd pair spot, then we move on.

[cross16]

At soon to be 27 and 350 NHL games under his belt it's difficult for me to imagine there is much improvement left in Stone. The only thing is I do find that sometimes players who have major knee injuries take a year or more to get back to full strength so maybe he gets some more mobility back. 

 

Given that I think he came as advertised i'm not sure you can expect much. Looking into more and more since the season ended the less i'm interested in bringing Stone back unless he is pretty cheap. I do think a 1 or 2 year deal is possible becuase I don't expect much of a market for him so he is a solid fall back option if they can't trade for an upgrade but that should be the prefered route. I think the biggest thing i've picked up on in these playoffs if you really need to be mobile, deep, and be able to move the puck on the backend and given that the Flames right now don't look great back there that should be a high priority. 

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

At soon to be 27 and 350 NHL games under his belt it's difficult for me to imagine there is much improvement left in Stone. The only thing is I do find that sometimes players who have major knee injuries take a year or more to get back to full strength so maybe he gets some more mobility back. 

 

Given that I think he came as advertised i'm not sure you can expect much. Looking into more and more since the season ended the less i'm interested in bringing Stone back unless he is pretty cheap. I do think a 1 or 2 year deal is possible becuase I don't expect much of a market for him so he is a solid fall back option if they can't trade for an upgrade but that should be the prefered route. I think the biggest thing i've picked up on in these playoffs if you really need to be mobile, deep, and be able to move the puck on the backend and given that the Flames right now don't look great back there that should be a high priority. 

 

Franson fits the puck-mover bill better than Stone does.  Maybe not the greatest skater, but otherwise has solid PP and PK numbers.  As I said before, Franson + Andersson or Franson + Stone as the 2nd and 3rd pair RD would be fine, as long as they don't pay Stone more than $2m.  

 

Re-signing Engelland would be a mistake, IMHO.  I liked him on the PK, but that was about the only place where he was able to contribute effectively.  He's lost a step or two and is no longer the fighter/threat he used to be.  

 

There's probably some better options for the Flames for the #4 spot, but Franson is probably the best fit from a dollar/term/usage perspective.

[jjgallow]

 

I don't personally put Franson in the top 4.

 

I really think the Flames need to pull off another "Hamilton" trade.   They rebuilt from their forwards out, instead of from defence/goaltending.   And we're paying the price.

 

IMHO, the Hamilton trade brilliantly addressed a huge chunk of that problem.  But not the whole problem.

 

I'm not saying it's easy, but if I was the GM that's where I'd be looking.   I'd be looking to acquire a Very young D that's already top 4 (or very likely to be there soon), but to some degree was taking longer to develop than management had hoped (was originally forecast for the top line).

 

Last year, I was suggesting Seth Jones.   Now I think he's already too good to get.   Ekblad is one who just came off of a rough year, will probably be dominant in the league, but might have left management with some second thoughts.     Josh Morrissey is a native Calgarian, has the potential to break out as a bonafide #1....but hasn't gotten there yet imho.   Ryan Pulok is interesting.   We're probably too late on Shea Theodore but man that would be nice.   Travis Sanheim has huge unrealized potential.      I still like DeAngelo, despite his size.    

 

Finally there's the really young ones....Noah Hanifin....still a project.   A worthwhile project if the Hurricanes tire of him.     I don't like Provorov.    Thomas Chabot looks Really good, but may be difficult for him to break the Senators lineup, and they may be willing to trade some future for some now.   Backlund?    Could take more than that.    

 

That's essentially the age range and skill level I would like to see the Flames target.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I don't personally put Franson in the top 4.

 

I really think the Flames need to pull off another "Hamilton" trade.   They rebuilt from their forwards out, instead of from defence/goaltending.   And we're paying the price.

 

IMHO, the Hamilton trade brilliantly addressed a huge chunk of that problem.  But not the whole problem.

 

I'm not saying it's easy, but if I was the GM that's where I'd be looking.   I'd be looking to acquire a Very young D that's already top 4 (or very likely to be there soon), but to some degree was taking longer to develop than management had hoped (was originally forecast for the top line).

 

Last year, I was suggesting Seth Jones.   Now I think he's already too good to get.   Ekblad is one who just came off of a rough year, will probably be dominant in the league, but might have left management with some second thoughts.     Josh Morrissey is a native Calgarian, has the potential to break out as a bonafide #1....but hasn't gotten there yet imho.   Ryan Pulok is interesting.   We're probably too late on Shea Theodore but man that would be nice.   Travis Sanheim has huge unrealized potential.      I still like DeAngelo, despite his size.    

 

Finally there's the really young ones....Noah Hanifin....still a project.   A worthwhile project if the Hurricanes tire of him.     I don't like Provorov.    Thomas Chabot looks Really good, but may be difficult for him to break the Senators lineup, and they may be willing to trade some future for some now.   Backlund?    Could take more than that.    

 

That's essentially the age range and skill level I would like to see the Flames target.

 

I'm not high on Franson either.  I think he's a 5/6/7 guy and will be overpaid.  

 

I think If we offered Backlund for Chabot, the Sens would counter with Phaneuf for Backlund.  I know there are a lot of Phaneuf haters out there but I think he's finally come around.  It took him awhile to understand what he is and isn't. I don't mind he comes back as long as he deletes a few of the bad apples off his speed dial in Calgary and stay away from the party life he used to enjoy here.

 

Other than that, LHS LD doesn't quite fit in naturally with us.

 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I don't personally put Franson in the top 4.

 

I really think the Flames need to pull off another "Hamilton" trade.   They rebuilt from their forwards out, instead of from defence/goaltending.   And we're paying the price.

 

IMHO, the Hamilton trade brilliantly addressed a huge chunk of that problem.  But not the whole problem.

 

I'm not saying it's easy, but if I was the GM that's where I'd be looking.   I'd be looking to acquire a Very young D that's already top 4 (or very likely to be there soon), but to some degree was taking longer to develop than management had hoped (was originally forecast for the top line).

 

Last year, I was suggesting Seth Jones.   Now I think he's already too good to get.   Ekblad is one who just came off of a rough year, will probably be dominant in the league, but might have left management with some second thoughts.     Josh Morrissey is a native Calgarian, has the potential to break out as a bonafide #1....but hasn't gotten there yet imho.   Ryan Pulok is interesting.   We're probably too late on Shea Theodore but man that would be nice.   Travis Sanheim has huge unrealized potential.      I still like DeAngelo, despite his size.    

 

Finally there's the really young ones....Noah Hanifin....still a project.   A worthwhile project if the Hurricanes tire of him.     I don't like Provorov.    Thomas Chabot looks Really good, but may be difficult for him to break the Senators lineup, and they may be willing to trade some future for some now.   Backlund?    Could take more than that.    

 

That's essentially the age range and skill level I would like to see the Flames target.

 

Considering most of our young forwards were drafted, yes we rebuilt from the forwards back.  At the time most of the selections were made, we were thin on depth in every position.  In 2012, we took a center, a goalie and three D.  In 2013, we went for mostly forwards and some bad selections on D.  In 2014, we went for some good D, etc.....

 

Ortio was a miss, Gillies had to go through 4 years of college, Kanzig, Gilmour, and Rafikov will never play in the NHL, but that is drafting.

 

Some teams have a real good player that they can give up to secure the right D-man.  We have Backlund, but very few here are willing to lose him to win a great defender.  And the draft is messing up the search.  

 

I wouldn't be adverse to trading Backlund for one of the big 4 in Nashville.  Probably have to add to the deal.  Protect 4F and 4D.  Would lose Frolik or Lazar or Stajan or Ferland or Brouwer.  Losing one of those wouldn't kill us.  I would protect Ferland over Frolik, but that's just me.

 

Hanifin is an interesting case.  He's exempt.  Trade would make more sense after the expansion draft.  At that point teams will be looking for players, picks and prospects.  

[cross16]

Franson is exactly what all of this year's FA crop is. Not ideal fits in the top 4, will probably be paid more than you want, and while you can argue there are certain positive skills they all bring, they really aren't ideal fits. I actually like Franson but as a bottom pairing dman and i'm not really keen on the idea of the Flames continuing to have to dedicate 4-5 million every year to fill their bottom pair. 

 

This year's FA crop should be nothing than short term fall backs. I'll be disappointed if the Flames plan in the off season is to add to their top 4 via FA because the corp sucks and I think this year's playoffs have demonstrated how important a good and mobile top 4 defense is. There isn't anyone i'm interested in, at any contract value, in FA for a top 4 spot on the Flames. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Franson is exactly what all of this year's FA crop is. Not ideal fits in the top 4, will probably be paid more than you want, and while you can argue there are certain positive skills they all bring, they really aren't ideal fits. I actually like Franson but as a bottom pairing dman and i'm not really keen on the idea of the Flames continuing to have to dedicate 4-5 million every year to fill their bottom pair. 

 

This year's FA crop should be nothing than short term fall backs. I'll be disappointed if the Flames plan in the off season is to add to their top 4 via FA because the corp sucks and I think this year's playoffs have demonstrated how important a good and mobile top 4 defense is. There isn't anyone i'm interested in, at any contract value, in FA for a top 4 spot on the Flames. 

 

 

 

I agree that they need not pay $4m for an average guy this summer.  Wouldn't mind as much if the total for two average D-men was $4m, such as Franson and Stone at $2m each.  Ideally, I would want to get that next Dougie.  Or an almost-Dougie.  I have zero interest in Phaneuf.  Make a trade now with a team that will lose a D-man for nothing or have to expose a really good forward to protect 4D.  I would take the hit on the LV pick.

[cross16]

I guess the Blackhawks were interested in Rutta after all

 

 

[phoenix66]

41 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I agree that they need not pay $4m for an average guy this summer.  Wouldn't mind as much if the total for two average D-men was $4m, such as Franson and Stone at $2m each.  Ideally, I would want to get that next Dougie.  Or an almost-Dougie.  I have zero interest in Phaneuf.  Make a trade now with a team that will lose a D-man for nothing or have to expose a really good forward to protect 4D.  I would take the hit on the LV pick.

As far as the best quality , I think our best option is likely going to come through Vegas when they pick from teams like Anaheim and Nashville.. whether we like the price or not is another story.. but likely to be lower than Either will want from us in the division or conference ..

then we could be looking at options like Vatanen, manson, theodore, Ellis, etc  .. wont know for sure until lists are submitted 

[MAC331]

46 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I guess the Blackhawks were interested in Rutta after all

 

 

I guess I have my answer to a question I put in Realistic Trade thread.  Dammit, was hoping we got this guy. THX cross

[AlbertaBoy12]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I guess I have my answer to a question I put in Realistic Trade thread.  Dammit, was hoping we got this guy. THX cross

Im really not surprised, the hawks just have way more to offer or maybe the flames just werent as interested as we thought. BT said he wants to bring in some young guys next year, and clogging up the space with another free agent doesnt fit that bill.

[MAC331]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

Franson is exactly what all of this year's FA crop is. Not ideal fits in the top 4, will probably be paid more than you want, and while you can argue there are certain positive skills they all bring, they really aren't ideal fits. I actually like Franson but as a bottom pairing dman and i'm not really keen on the idea of the Flames continuing to have to dedicate 4-5 million every year to fill their bottom pair. 

 

This year's FA crop should be nothing than short term fall backs. I'll be disappointed if the Flames plan in the off season is to add to their top 4 via FA because the corp sucks and I think this year's playoffs have demonstrated how important a good and mobile top 4 defense is. There isn't anyone i'm interested in, at any contract value, in FA for a top 4 spot on the Flames. 

 

 

This is why I would love to see BT try and get L Schenn from ARZ for Stajan even if we have to throw in a prospect. Schenn makes 1.5M and would work well on our 3rd pairing. Only consider Stone or Franson if you can get a contract that would be easy to move.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

This is why I would love to see BT try and get L Schenn from ARZ for Stajan even if we have to throw in a prospect. Schenn makes 1.5M and would work well on our 3rd pairing. Only consider Stone or Franson if you can get a contract that would be easy to move.

 

Is Schenn just a Stone 2.0?

Not that fast.  Hard hitter.  Good first pass.

The trade is reasonable, but he's no more a #4 than Franson or Stone.  

 

2 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Im really not surprised, the hawks just have way more to offer or maybe the flames just werent as interested as we thought. BT said he wants to bring in some young guys next year, and clogging up the space with another free agent doesnt fit that bill.

 

The Hawks are the Hawks.  Brand recognition.  Used to be a contender.  Some of the Euros out there only know of a team's history, not where they are trending.  Chicago is a big market city, known throughout the world, unlike Calgary.  We have more holes on defense than the Hawks right now, but they probably offered a roster spot right away, which BT is never keen on doing.  We were in on it as much as Chicago.  Had tabled an offer.

[MAC331]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Is Schenn just a Stone 2.0?

Not that fast.  Hard hitter.  Good first pass.

The trade is reasonable, but he's no more a #4 than Franson or Stone.  

 

 

The Hawks are the Hawks.  Brand recognition.  Used to be a contender.  Some of the Euros out there only know of a team's history, not where they are trending.  Chicago is a big market city, known throughout the world, unlike Calgary.  We have more holes on defense than the Hawks right now, but they probably offered a roster spot right away, which BT is never keen on doing.  We were in on it as much as Chicago.  Had tabled an offer.

Maybe you should read the post again. I never suggested Schenn as a #4.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Maybe you should read the post again. I never suggested Schenn as a #4.

What do you suggest for a #4, since that's the biggest issue. 

[MAC331]

Just now, travel_dude said:

What do you suggest for a #4, since that's the biggest issue. 

I have no problem with Stone at 3.75M or less to play with Brodie. I liked how he handled himself and if he doesn't hold up try Andersson there for some time.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

This is why I would love to see BT try and get L Schenn from ARZ for Stajan even if we have to throw in a prospect. Schenn makes 1.5M and would work well on our 3rd pairing. Only consider Stone or Franson if you can get a contract that would be easy to move.

 

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I have no problem with Stone at 3.75M or less to play with Brodie. I liked how he handled himself and if he doesn't hold up try Andersson there for some time.

 

Are you suggesting Schenn & Stone(or Franson) or Stone and Andersson?  At 3.75m Stone better be a 2nd pairing D for the year.

As I had said, I wouldn't complain about $2m for Stone and $2m for Franson.  One of the two would have to be the #4D.     

Those kind of salaries are tradeable.  We got Stone with 50% retained, which was about par value for him.

 

I would prefer if we set our sights a bit higher.  Stone and Schenn isn't much better than Stone and Engelland.  I have to think we could do better.  Schultz seems to be a lot more consistent since he went to the Pengies.  I doubt they can afford paying him more than $5m this year.  Still make the trade for Schenn ($1.25m) and we are a better team.

WOuld burn EDM's butt every time we played them too, so bonus.    

[MAC331]

52 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Are you suggesting Schenn & Stone(or Franson) or Stone and Andersson?  At 3.75m Stone better be a 2nd pairing D for the year.

As I had said, I wouldn't complain about $2m for Stone and $2m for Franson.  One of the two would have to be the #4D.     

Those kind of salaries are tradeable.  We got Stone with 50% retained, which was about par value for him.

 

I would prefer if we set our sights a bit higher.  Stone and Schenn isn't much better than Stone and Engelland.  I have to think we could do better.  Schultz seems to be a lot more consistent since he went to the Pengies.  I doubt they can afford paying him more than $5m this year.  Still make the trade for Schenn ($1.25m) and we are a better team.

WOuld burn EDM's butt every time we played them too, so bonus.    

I didn't realize I was speaking Greek here, Schenn on the 3rd pairing for 1.5M with whoever on the LS and Stone at 3.75 or whatever is market price under 3.75M might be to play as Brodie's partner. Is that clear for you ? What do you give up for someone like Schultz and does PIT even want to trade him .

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I didn't realize I was speaking Greek here, Schenn on the 3rd pairing for 1.5M with whoever on the LS and Stone at 3.75 or whatever is market price under 3.75M might be to play as Brodie's partner. Is that clear for you ? What do you give up for someone like Schultz and does PIT even want to trade him .

 

He's a RFA with arbitration rights; my bad.  I was thinking he's UFA.