Flames Defense

[cross16]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Seriously though I was responding to "defencemen can't be blamed for defense".    Maybe I shouldn't have responded, but holy...

 

Which is not even remotely what I said. The post clearly says it is not completely fair to focus only on the individual members of the d core when there is data that points to a system/team issue as well. 

 

This is exactly the problem. You draw weird conclusions to people's post (in most cases try to make claims that are no where near what they are saying) and then pretty much always find a way to blame the GM for it.  It provides zero value, no space for discussion and just winds up you crapping on every thread by turning it into a some stupid negative rant about something that often isn't even the point. 

 

Its just such a waste of time and blocks potential for good discussion but you do you. 

 

Just going to see less of me around. Just not worth it anymore. 

[jjgallow]

35 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Which is not even remotely what I said. The post clearly says it is not completely fair to focus only on the individual members of the d core when there is data that points to a system/team issue as well. 

 

This is exactly the problem. You draw weird conclusions to people's post (in most cases try to make claims that are no where near what they are saying) and then pretty much always find a way to blame the GM for it.  It provides zero value, no space for discussion and just winds up you crapping on every thread by turning it into a some stupid negative rant about something that often isn't even the point. 

 

Its just such a waste of time and blocks potential for good discussion but you do you. 

 

Just going to see less of me around. Just not worth it anymore. 

 

Here's a small thing you missed:

 

I was agreeing with you.   Thus bringing up Monahan.

 

 

I actually agree with a lot of your posts.  You only see the flare-ups because that's what you've chosen in your settings without understanding what that does.     The flare-up was caused, ultimately, because people get offended when there is any critcism of the team.   I understand the human nature of it, but, not everyone feels that every discussion has to be a blind cheer.   Sometimes it's okay to be critical of things you care about and want to improve.

 

You haven't replied to me in 8 years, but you picked a reply where I agreed with you to break your silence and state your case. 

 

So I'll tell you what I don't agree with, and sure you didn't say it but you inferred it:   The notion that fans can't place accountability.    I'm totally with you on not blaming individual players.  But defence as a whole is an issue, and has been ignored, and the GM has a part in that.   For some people it is okay to have some criticisms of things they care about and want to improve.   I know you have your own criticisms that you hardly ever voice.   I suspect they aren't actually that different from mine.     I'm not sure holding back on them has gotten the team anywhere in the last decade, or made discussion more interesting.

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Here's a small thing you missed:

 

I was agreeing with you.   Thus bringing up Monahan.

 

 

I actually agree with a lot of your posts.  You only see the flare-ups because that's what you've chosen in your settings without understanding what that does.     The flare-up was caused, ultimately, because people get offended when there is any critcism of the team.   I understand the human nature of it, but, not everyone feels that every discussion has to be a blind cheer.   Sometimes it's okay to be critical of things you care about and want to improve.

 

You haven't replied to me in 8 years, but you picked a reply where I agreed with you to break your silence and state your case. 

 

So I'll tell you what I don't agree with, and sure you didn't say it but you inferred it:   The notion that fans can't place accountability.    I'm totally with you on not blaming individual players.  But defence as a whole is an issue, and has been ignored, and the GM has a part in that.   For some people it is okay to have some criticisms of things they care about and want to improve.   I know you have your own criticisms that you hardly ever voice.   I suspect they aren't actually that different from mine.     I'm not sure holding back on them has gotten the team anywhere in the last decade, or made discussion more interesting.

He’s saying and showing the stat the D isn’t aggressive enough at they’re blueline allowing too many zone entries.

That’s a fair argument and maybe a stat that gets overlooked but is important.

That’s it. Focus man, focus.

I’d like to see this table in each of our pairings.

Guessing 2nd-1st-3rd from best to worst, but is it close between pairs?

 

[conundrumed]

Also because I watch the Wings a fair bit, I’m a bit shocked we’re that close to them. 

Maata or Walman could be trade fodder if they fall further.

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

He’s saying and showing the stat the D isn’t aggressive enough at they’re blueline allowing too many zone entries.

That’s a fair argument and maybe a stat that gets overlooked but is important.

That’s it. Focus man, focus.

I’d like to see this table in each of our pairings.

Guessing 2nd-1st-3rd from best to worst, but is it close between pairs?

 

 

I know you're finding a middle ground and moving on here lol but he was pretty clearly saying it' not just the D.   Which is true, although that stat probably Should be overlooked because it can be misleading.   I still agreed with it.  Even if I didn't agree with deflecting blame entirely.

 

Anyway sorry for bumping this thread lol

 

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Here's a small thing you missed:

 

I was agreeing with you.   Thus bringing up Monahan.

 

 

I actually agree with a lot of your posts.  You only see the flare-ups because that's what you've chosen in your settings without understanding what that does.     The flare-up was caused, ultimately, because people get offended when there is any critcism of the team.   I understand the human nature of it, but, not everyone feels that every discussion has to be a blind cheer.   Sometimes it's okay to be critical of things you care about and want to improve.

 

You haven't replied to me in 8 years, but you picked a reply where I agreed with you to break your silence and state your case. 

 

So I'll tell you what I don't agree with, and sure you didn't say it but you inferred it:   The notion that fans can't place accountability.    I'm totally with you on not blaming individual players.  But defence as a whole is an issue, and has been ignored, and the GM has a part in that.   For some people it is okay to have some criticisms of things they care about and want to improve.   I know you have your own criticisms that you hardly ever voice.   I suspect they aren't actually that different from mine.     I'm not sure holding back on them has gotten the team anywhere in the last decade, or made discussion more interesting.

 

I actually stopped muting your posts a while ago. Just don't engage for reasons like this exchange. 

 

And again your last paragraph is exactly what i'm saying and is what is ridiculous for me. I did not infer that fans can't place accountability, YOU did. Why would I suggest that fans can't place accountability? Of course they can and in hockey in particular who you would want to hold accountable would provide good discussion. Instead you infer something that has nothing to do with my post, get your digs in at the GM and then take the discussion in a meaningless way and then on top of that make suggestions about me that are not true. I criticize plenty and have plenty of posts that outline accountability but again you do you. 

 

To get this back on track and spell it out. The purpose of the post was to point out that while the play of the d core hasn't always been great, I think when you are not great at defending the blueline (which is a job for more than just the d core) you create more opportunity for chances. How you defend the blueline is in part player driven but mostly driven by systems/coaching philosophy as well. I do think it's been trending in a better direction in the second quarter of the season and I will be interested to see where it goes. 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

To get this back on track and spell it out. The purpose of the post was to point out that while the play of the d core hasn't always been great, I think when you are not great at defending the blueline (which is a job for more than just the d core) you create more opportunity for chances. How you defend the blueline is in part player driven but mostly driven by systems/coaching philosophy as well. I do think it's been trending in a better direction in the second quarter of the season and I will be interested to see where it goes. 

 

The two places blame can be assigned is the coach and the players.

Players as in all 5.

Coach, as in the one that tells them to do or don't do.

 

[jjgallow]

 

3 months, nice.  at least we're consistent

[jjgallow]

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not enough regular posters to post to every thread.  The HOT ones are the GDT's that people will post thoughts for days afterwards.  Or the Coach or lineup or Draft threads.  

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Not enough regular posters to post to every thread.  The HOT ones are the GDT's that people will post thoughts for days afterwards.  Or the Coach or lineup or Draft threads.  

 

I do not see any evidence of the gameday threads being popular lol, last game April 12, last post april 12, same with the previous.   People have an average attention span of about 30 seconds.

 

Fire the coach, attack the goalie are Always mainstays after a playoff elimination.  never fails.

 

I'm not saying they don't have validity but it's pretty ...predictable.

 

and of course the "realistic trades" thread, where nobody has ever posted a realistic trade in years 😅

 

 

I like that there are some productive interesting threads right now on the arena, the gm, a few others.  the positivity thread was a real warrior.   

 

Just saying, defense isn't "every thread".   It's core.  could be one of the most important threads here.   

 

The issue is most hockey fans are not aware that defense is part of the game.  or do not care.

[cross16]

Maybe instead of useless flyby posts and insults people could you know actually start a discussion?

 

Novel concept on a message board I know.....

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I do not see any evidence of the gameday threads being popular lol, last game April 12, last post april 12, same with the previous.   People have an average attention span of about 30 seconds.

 

Fire the coach, attack the goalie are Always mainstays after a playoff elimination.  never fails.

 

I'm not saying they don't have validity but it's pretty ...predictable.

 

and of course the "realistic trades" thread, where nobody has ever posted a realistic trade in years 😅

 

 

I like that there are some productive interesting threads right now on the arena, the gm, a few others.  the positivity thread was a real warrior.   

 

Just saying, defense isn't "every thread".   It's core.  could be one of the most important threads here.   

 

The issue is most hockey fans are not aware that defense is part of the game.  or do not care.

 

Prior to being eliminated, the GDT threads went right up the the next game.

Sometimes the only activity on the boards.

 

I think activity has more to do with success than attention span. 

 

The goaltending thread tends to get the discussion about defense.  Bad defense equals bad goaltending arguments.  But your posts in this thread...what do you want?  Discussion about your feeling that we don't develop D properly, suck at defending, have no depth or something else?  

 

There are many hardcore posters here, but some don't comment on every facet of the team.  Does their feelings about the state of defense here make them not informed or not caring?  

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Prior to being eliminated, the GDT threads went right up the the next game.

Sometimes the only activity on the boards.

 

I think activity has more to do with success than attention span. 

 

The goaltending thread tends to get the discussion about defense.  Bad defense equals bad goaltending arguments.  But your posts in this thread...what do you want?  Discussion about your feeling that we don't develop D properly, suck at defending, have no depth or something else?  

 

There are many hardcore posters here, but some don't comment on every facet of the team.  Does their feelings about the state of defense here make them not informed or not caring?  

 

I want us to not be as oblivious about D as the Oilers are.

[travel_dude]

 

[The_People1]

23 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

He makes it look so easy,

 

[cross16]

Fits with what has been seen on social media but Maloney commented on it too

 

 

[travel_dude]

22 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Fits with what has been seen on social media but Maloney commented on it too

 

 

 

He was a big loss last year.  The drop off in defensive ability to Stone (or Mackey) wasn't that steep, but missing an extra puck mover was a big loss.  For all the negatives some others have said about Kylington, he rarely was so far behind the play coming back that he couldn't make a play of some sort.  

 

Kylington playing next year doesn't make Hanifin redundant, but it leads to speculation of making moves to reduce cap.  I am a bit on the fence about it at this point.  Want to see how he shows up at camp.  Kylington that is.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

He was a big loss last year.  The drop off in defensive ability to Stone (or Mackey) wasn't that steep, but missing an extra puck mover was a big loss.  For all the negatives some others have said about Kylington, he rarely was so far behind the play coming back that he couldn't make a play of some sort.  

 

Kylington playing next year doesn't make Hanifin redundant, but it leads to speculation of making moves to reduce cap.  I am a bit on the fence about it at this point.  Want to see how he shows up at camp.  Kylington that is.

 

Our LD should be set for next season.

 

Hanifin

Zadorov

Kylington

 

All three will be pending UFAs.  Trade all three next TDL..  Hanifin should get a 1st + prospect + fringe NHLer.  Zadorov and Kylington should get 2nds... But possibly a 1st if they have a good season.

 

In 2024/25, our LD will be,

 

Poirier

Kuznetsov

Solovyov

 

Wouldn't miss a beat.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Our LD should be set for next season.

 

Hanifin

Zadorov

Kylington

 

All three will be pending UFAs.  Trade all three next TDL..  Hanifin should get a 1st + prospect + fringe NHLer.  Zadorov and Kylington should get 2nds... But possibly a 1st if they have a good season.

 

In 2024/25, our LD will be,

 

Poirier

Kuznetsov

Solovyov

 

Wouldn't miss a beat.

 

Do you think Hanifin could get that kind of return so close to UFA?   Serious question, I'm not great with contracts.

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Our LD should be set for next season.

 

Hanifin

Zadorov

Kylington

 

All three will be pending UFAs.  Trade all three next TDL..  Hanifin should get a 1st + prospect + fringe NHLer.  Zadorov and Kylington should get 2nds... But possibly a 1st if they have a good season.

 

In 2024/25, our LD will be,

 

Poirier

Kuznetsov

Solovyov

 

Wouldn't miss a beat.

 

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Do you think Hanifin could get that kind of return so close to UFA?   Serious question, I'm not great with contracts.

 

Hanifin is the right choice for a team with little cap this year and would be looking to re-sign him.

I think you would do well in trading him before the season started as opposed to TDL and the Monahan type injury risk.

Besides, how do you make a trade like that if you are anywhere close to being in the playoffs.

A new GM is not going to do that.

 

I would keep Zaddy and Kyl with the idea of re-signing them.

They are not the shutdown kings, so make decisions on the other guys.

Ones that would have a better return than a 2nd.

Seriously, a 2nd for Kyl is like never picking him in the first place.  Waste.

 

I don't see the early progression that maybe you do.

Poirier is trending faster than the others.

You can afford his mistakes because he's pretty much top on offense.

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Do you think Hanifin could get that kind of return so close to UFA?   Serious question, I'm not great with contracts.

 

Yes, it's very standard for a top pair D going into the playoffs to fetch that type of return.  This TDL it was Chychrun.  Last season, Ben Chiarot got the same.

 

Of course it also depends on Hanifin's production next season and also, the 1st round pick will be 25th or later because only contenders would pay that price.  The level of prospect will depend on what the other team has to offer.

 

His next contract could looking something like, $7.5-mil x 8-years.

[The_People1]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Hanifin is the right choice for a team with little cap this year and would be looking to re-sign him.

I think you would do well in trading him before the season started as opposed to TDL and the Monahan type injury risk.

Besides, how do you make a trade like that if you are anywhere close to being in the playoffs.

A new GM is not going to do that.

 

I would keep Zaddy and Kyl with the idea of re-signing them.

They are not the shutdown kings, so make decisions on the other guys.

Ones that would have a better return than a 2nd.

Seriously, a 2nd for Kyl is like never picking him in the first place.  Waste.

 

I don't see the early progression that maybe you do.

Poirier is trending faster than the others.

You can afford his mistakes because he's pretty much top on offense.

 

 

I don't think any of our 3 young D are ready next season but I do think we need to make room for 2024/25.. at least two of the three will need a spot to play at the NHL level by then.  LD prospects is a strength of this team right now so what an opportunity to turn pending UFAs Hanifin, Zadorov, and Kylington into picks as we graduate Piorier, Kuznetsov, or Solovyov.

[conundrumed]

Kylington's return announcement coincides with Sutter's departure. Ironic?

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Kylington's return announcement coincides with Sutter's departure. Ironic?

 

I was going to say but that was even too tin foil hat for me.