Flames Defense

[jjgallow]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:29 PM, travel_dude said:

 

Okay, so I have time for Valimaki to get back up to speed, but he can't really do that in the NHL.  Not any real spots for him, even if he's #7.  Waiving him has decent risk, even if you consider that most players make it through the season start waiver wire.  There are teams that will wait, so as not to have to make a trade.  

 

So, the only way to get Valimaki the NHL reps is to trade Hanifin.  Opens up the 7 spot.  I have no doubt that he could get back on track if he shows up ready in camp and forces BT to keep him up.  

 

Hate to say it, but nothing "might" be the right course of action.  Valimaki is a problem when all the other players are healthy.  And only then.

 

That said, there is a good justification for a Hanifin trade.   I doubt it would actually weaken the Flames defensively.

 

A lot of it rides on things like Valimaki's health, which we don't actually know.     But leaving a prospect like this undeveloped and incomplete is a pretty huge waste if at all preventable.    

 

To be honest the Flames are lacking defensemen.  They only have a surplus on paper, caused by no new prospects graduating on two-way contracts.    As mentioned I think they Really need a #1D, if they intend to "go for it", and I would argue this need as more important than all their other off-season additions, as good as they were.   Their 2nd most important defensive need imho should be making a decision on Valimaki.  Either salvaging him, or trading him.  Not waiting until he's worthless (which has been the MO of late).

[jjgallow]

 

 

thread not relevant cause goalie's fault lol

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

9 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

thread not relevant cause goalie's fault lol

Since you bumped the thread it's probably a good time to ask.  Any word on whats going on with Kylington?  In this day and age where it seems impossible to keep anything under wraps seems rather suspicious theres nothing to be heard.

[conundrumed]

Just now, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Since you bumped the thread it's probably a good time to ask.  Any word on whats going on with Kylington?  In this day and age where it seems impossible to keep anything under wraps seems rather suspicious theres nothing to be heard.

It was all just a mirage. There is no such person.

Stone is fine as a fill in 7th.

We need a steady 6th.

Why doesn't Meloche get a chance before it's via trade, because a #6 is nothing else we have atm.

Z deserves better.

[conundrumed]

Just to add, how excited we were that Weegar is a massive upgrade on wassisname. Only to find out he's replacing wassisname AND the member of the disappeared. He can only be 1 place at a time.

[conundrumed]

I'm really happy that the fans didn't trade Hanifin.lol

How effed would we be right now?

[travel_dude]

34 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm really happy that the fans didn't trade Hanifin.lol

How effed would we be right now?

 

The only time a Hani-trade would have made sense was with a healthy Kylington.

Doing what he did last fall.

That would make Hanifin more expendable.

Wouldn't improve us at all.

 

But we never had the depth we thought we had.

We never got the chance to grow Valimaki.

May never have happened here.

But Stone is really a 7th D at best.

I don't know that we should trade for a D when we haven't even tried Meloche.

I would even give Poirier a shot.

Risky but so is Stone on the rush.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Just to add, how excited we were that Weegar is a massive upgrade on wassisname. Only to find out he's replacing wassisname AND the member of the disappeared. He can only be 1 place at a time.

 

To be fair, BT made the most of this situation by making sure we patiently developed Valimaki.   If I remember correctly?

 

 

[jjgallow]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The only time a Hani-trade would have made sense was with a healthy Kylington.

Doing what he did last fall.

That would make Hanifin more expendable.

Wouldn't improve us at all.

 

But we never had the depth we thought we had.

We never got the chance to grow Valimaki.

May never have happened here.

But Stone is really a 7th D at best.

I don't know that we should trade for a D when we haven't even tried Meloche.

I would even give Poirier a shot.

Risky but so is Stone on the rush.

 

Exactly this.   Markstrom was hot and it seemed all was great.  Guys inching into their mid-30's were holding the fort up too.

 

When would a Hani-trade make sense?   I would argue any time, but Only, only only only if you get some serious D back through what would have to be a secondary trade  (nobody who wants Hani has D to offer us).

 

I have always been in favor of trading Hani but we need to seriously shore up our D, or at least our D prospects, before that.  So like, the opposite of what we did with Valimaki, x5.

[pikey7883]

Ok I’ll post an unwelcome idea. What would Tanev Net us at this point in his career?

He is 33 now, and still our best shut down defender, but I unfortunately 😉 have to agree with @jjgallow that as some point in time we have to look to get younger.

Is there a way we can sell off a big asset at the right time to regain some youth and potentially bluechippers in the pipeline. To get moderately weaker now, and stronger in the longterm.

I will post an example, would Tanev to the blue shirts get you Schneider straight up? 
Mostly food for thought stuff.

[cross16]

IMO there is a lot to like about how the Flames D is developing this year:

 

Rasmus is turning into a dark horse Norris candidate. Been excellent over the last 20 games and is up to the top 10 in ice time among Dmen over that time with strong results (both counting and underlying)

Weegar took time to settle in but he's now starting to show you why people were excited to get him. He and Tanev are one of the best shutdown pairs in the league and Weegar has been one of the best transition dmen in the league the last 20 games. Not allowing much in his own zone. 

over the last 20 games the Flames are top 5 or 10 in almost all D categories. There ability to limit shots and chances is amongst the league best. 

Their Achilles heel right now would be high danger chances. They are still giving up a few too many of those (middle of the pack but interesting enough not that much different from last year's team) but I think that's not all on the D either. When you play man to man communication becomes critical and the Flames are still ironing out their communication this year. Case in point the Kraken's 2nd goal where Huberdeau lost his man and there was no communication to back him up. 

 

it's trending really well though especially the last 10 games your starting to see the D much more active in the rush. I agree that the 3rd pairing is a problem right now with Stone. He actually hasn't been terrible but the chemistry between he and Z isn't there.

[jjgallow]

37 minutes ago, cross16 said:

IMO there is a lot to like about how the Flames D is developing this year:

 

Rasmus is turning into a dark horse Norris candidate. Been excellent over the last 20 games and is up to the top 10 in ice time among Dmen over that time with strong results (both counting and underlying)

Weegar took time to settle in but he's now starting to show you why people were excited to get him. He and Tanev are one of the best shutdown pairs in the league and Weegar has been one of the best transition dmen in the league the last 20 games. Not allowing much in his own zone. 

over the last 20 games the Flames are top 5 or 10 in almost all D categories. There ability to limit shots and chances is amongst the league best. 

Their Achilles heel right now would be high danger chances. They are still giving up a few too many of those (middle of the pack but interesting enough not that much different from last year's team) but I think that's not all on the D either. When you play man to man communication becomes critical and the Flames are still ironing out their communication this year. Case in point the Kraken's 2nd goal where Huberdeau lost his man and there was no communication to back him up. 

 

it's trending really well though especially the last 10 games your starting to see the D much more active in the rush. I agree that the 3rd pairing is a problem right now with Stone. He actually hasn't been terrible but the chemistry between he and Z isn't there.

 

Imho views like this  (at gm level) are what got us in the hole we're in.

 

I will give you that Rasmus has shown steady improvement, and he is one of the few players who I would not consider in a trade.

 

Almost everything else here is far too slanted imho and I don't know why it's necessary for us to cover up gaping wounds in this manner.  Rasmus a Norris candidate?  Nope.   Nope, nope, nope, nope.  lol.   Said nobody ever outside of the Flames org.   I don't think it's fair to him either.  Can't we just say he's been good?  

 

 

Weegar:  He was not able to translate his two-way play from Florida to here.   His point production has disappeared, he does not contribute offensively with the pairings here and he is just okay, or possibly good, defensively.    No, he is not one of the best defensive players in the league.  no.  He good defensively, and he is a RHS.  That is Weegar.  Glad to have him, but that is it.

 

Tanev:   The injuries are starting to be a Hallmark of his later years and yes, he is one of our best defensive players, maybe our best.   But that in itself is a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

[cross16]

Accuse me of slating and then go on and slant yourself. Yup feels about right. Also no reason to just be negative for the sake of negative but that is what you do. 

 

I didn't call Rasmus a Norris Candidate I said he is a dark horse. He obvious has to continue this but he's in good company and if his play continues I expect him to get votes which makes him a candidate. 

5th in ice time, 11in  expected goals, 16th in points, avg to above avg in almost all shot metrics stats. He'll get consideration if he keeps that up but no where did I say finalist or winner, you inferred that. 

 

Also never said Weegar was one of the best defensive players in the league. i said he has been one of the best transition players in the league over the last 20 games. he's top 3 in the league in Corsi, Fenwick and Shots for % top 15 in expected goals against too at 5 on 5. 

And as of Dec 17th Tanev and Weegar were one of the best pairings in the league in expected goals against. To be fair, and to check myself, they've slipped to 12th.

 

Tanev injuries are for sure less than ideal, so is the fact that he's older and a key leader on the D. No one here would suggest the Flames d looks great long term but it's the decision they've made and unlike you I see no value in discussing in every thread/post that I think the future isn't good. I don't find value in that given I have no say in how the team is run. 

 

Right now, I think there are things worth celebrating on the D core and things that they need to fix. Any other conclusions you are drawing on your own. 

[cross16]

This illustrates why I think the focus on the actual defenders, in terms of evaluation, isn't compeltely fair. A big reason why, IMO, the Flames are giving up more chances and goals is this. They were very good at this last year and now a bit below avg this year. 

 

This is the systematic change I don't/didn't understand. Now I think it's starting to change to be interesting to see how this goes but it's tough for me to harp on the individual defenders when as a team, they are giving up the blueline too easily. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, cross16 said:

This illustrates why I think the focus on the actual defenders, in terms of evaluation, isn't compeltely fair. A big reason why, IMO, the Flames are giving up more chances and goals is this. They were very good at this last year and now a bit below avg this year. 

 

This is the systematic change I don't/didn't understand. Now I think it's starting to change to be interesting to see how this goes but it's tough for me to harp on the individual defenders when as a team, they are giving up the blueline too easily. 

 

I have noticed this on everything but the PK.  I'm not exactly sure who is specifically backing off on zone entries, but it may just be one side over the other (ie. LD or RD on a pairing only).  Have to pay attention a bit more.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Hanifin is giving it up more than others.  His gaps seem to be way too big.  I have seen a few incidents where a player is on the wall (once they gain the zone) and space opens up in front of them.  The player has room to walk in about 20 feet untouched.  I know this isn't covered in the attached graph, but I have noticed it.

 

I have mentioned elsewhere where I feel Markstrom is more exposed by rush chances than Vladar.  The regression in zone entry suppression may be disguised by Markstrom's improved play of late.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

This illustrates why I think the focus on the actual defenders, in terms of evaluation, isn't compeltely fair. A big reason why, IMO, the Flames are giving up more chances and goals is this. They were very good at this last year and now a bit below avg this year. 

 

This is the systematic change I don't/didn't understand. Now I think it's starting to change to be interesting to see how this goes but it's tough for me to harp on the individual defenders when as a team, they are giving up the blueline too easily. 

 

 

 

Advanced stats amateurs working overtime this year.

 

Here's another advanced stat:

 

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Advanced stats amateurs working overtime this year.

 

Here's another advanced stat:

 

 

Is this the same guy that has missed the last 14 games with an injury?

[cross16]

Yup crazy advanced stats like how often a team carries in over a blueline vs being denied entry. So advanced....

 

No wonder there is no good discussion happening on this place. Just full of negativity and complaining.  Pretty sad honestly.

 

 

[sak22]

43 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Is this the same guy that has missed the last 14 games with an injury?

Its a reference to a traded away 1st round pick from 2.5 years from now.  So be prepared for 2.5 more years of hearing about it.

[jjgallow]

47 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Is this the same guy that has missed the last 14 games with an injury?

 

Yeah if I'm not mistaken his former team forgot to do proper medicals with him despite a widely known medical history, and got a recurrence.  Then they gave up a draft pick to lose him to another team where he showed what he would have been if healthy.

[jjgallow]

34 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Yup crazy advanced stats like how often a team carries in over a blueline vs being denied entry. So advanced....

 

No wonder there is no good discussion happening on this place. Just full of negativity and complaining.  Pretty sad honestly.

 

 

 

Probably not in any way related to faceoff wins etc, we can be sure that was all accounted for in these calculations since it is on twitter.

 

I was actually agreeing with your post, the forwards have to have accountability too.   

 

But if the point of your post was that we shouldn't blame any of the players or we're bad fans, fine.   I can work with that as well.   But that leaves the GM, man.

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yeah if I'm not mistaken his former team forgot to do proper medicals with him despite a widely known medical history, and got a recurrence.  Then they gave up a draft pick to lose him to another team where he showed what he would have been if healthy.

Try to stay remotely on topic. The constant crapping on evertthing under the sun has reached torture level.

[jjgallow]

Just now, conundrumed said:

Try to stay remotely on topic. The constant crapping on evertthing under the sun has reached torture level.

 

Seriously though I was responding to "defencemen can't be blamed for defense".    Maybe I shouldn't have responded, but holy...

[CheersMan]

40 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Try to stay remotely on topic. The constant crapping on evertthing under the sun has reached torture level.

You are one of the very few on here that “likes” his posts from time to time, responds to his ridiculousness and calls him out of the woodwork when he goes quiet…. like during the winning streaks. He only comes out when some on here vent frustration or when Flames enter losing streaks. I don’t recall seeing many of his posts on here last year during our 111 pt season as it does not support his agenda. Try ignoring him like most do on here and maybe he will disappear for good. He thinks he is entertaining but “torture level” would be an under statement.

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

You are one of the very few on here that “likes” his posts from time to time, responds to his ridiculousness and calls him out of the woodwork when he goes quiet…. like during the winning streaks. He only comes out when some on here vent frustration or when Flames enter losing streaks. I don’t recall seeing many of his posts on here last year during our 111 pt season as it does not support his agenda. Try ignoring him like most do on here and maybe he will disappear for good. He thinks he is entertaining but “torture level” would be an under statement.

 

Says the most negative person on here, nobody has gotten so personal in attacking JG, Valimaki, Fox as you, fine that's your style.   Superficially support whoever wears the jersey until the moment they leave.   We could really use Valimaki here right now, sorry man.  And 2 years from now when he's in his prime?  I wonder if we'll need him then.

 

I have a lot to say about the GM.  A lot to wonder about the owners.   You would rather personally attack and insult players who have families and kids, than the GM who orchestrated the whole thing.   

 

You do you.